Bye Bye Roe v. Wade

[OCybrManO]

from the moment of conception there is a living being GROWING within the womb of a woman

Define "conception." Is it when the sperm meets the egg? Is it when their DNA is combined? Is it when it starts to divide? Is it when the fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus? Take your pick. At all of the above stages, they still die quite often without the woman ever knowing she was pregnant. Are you suggesting that a miscarriage at all of those stages should be considered manslaughter? A life is a life, right? If you don't say yes to that, they don't follow the same rules... and your argument takes a hit.

Let's get a bit deeper into the issue. What is special about humans? Is it because your religion tells you humans are special? Is it because you think only humans have some certain mental capacity? Is it some arbitrary distinction you just feel? If it's religious, it should not be made into secular law... unless you want to have to follow the laws of all other religions, as well. If it's because you think we're the only smart beings with reasoning, emotion, etc... that's an arrogant assumption (with a lot of evidence to the contrary). I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why killing a full-grown cow for leather shoes is fine while killing an unfeeling, mindless embryo because you don't want to suffer through child birth is evil... or are you also a vegetarian... and a pacifist?

Growth, alone, does not a human make. Every living organism grows. If the embryo is not alive yet by the medical standards used to determine if a human is still alive, why should a woman be forced to carry the embryo to a full term? IMO, abortion is only wrong once the fetus has the ability to feel pain and/or is conscious of its surroundings... but, because we can't really measure that very well (there are machines to detect fetal brain activity, but they are relatively new and expensive), I would use a conservative estimate of about 5 weeks. At that time, the heart is making its first beats and other organs like the lungs and brain stem are starting to appear. Plus, it gives you 3-4 weeks after you can find out whether you are pregnant or not (1-2 weeks depending on the self-testing method and even less if you get a blood test) to have the procedure done.

Also, "potential" isn't really a great argument. Where there is potential for it to become Einstein, there is also potential for it to become Hitler. Where there is potential for a doctor, there is potential for a drug dealer. I have the potential to die tomorrow. Should I act accordingly?

 

[OvA]

OvA's Abortion Shack : You rape 'em, we scrape 'em

 

[Last One In]

Of course its dead after the abortion, the arguement is about whether its alive before the abortion or not :dork: . You can say that sperm is just another "stage" of life if you want to. I say that once something can live in the outside world without needing the nutrients that are inside the mother, it is alive. Before that it is just another part of the women's body.

It's like bacteria when they seperate, there was obviously always the potential for a new bacteria to seperate off of the old one, but not until it actually can is it a new bacteria.

We need to quit using analogies here and face the hard facts: Sperm and Egg unite. A sperm doesn't grow when in the man's testicles, nor does an egg grow in the woman's uterus. If these things go unused, they will be discarded. But when sperm and egg unite, they form a creature that has all the chromosomes that code for who that person is going to be. All the physical and mental traits that that person is going to have are in his or her DNA. So before the child is even born into the world he or she has all the components necessary to be considered human and living.

 

[Last One In]

Define "conception." Is it when the sperm meets the egg? Is it when their DNA is combined? Is it when it starts to divide? Is it when the fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus? Take your pick. At all of the above stages, they still die quite often without the woman ever knowing she was pregnant. Are you suggesting that a miscarriage at all of those stages should be considered manslaughter? A life is a life, right? If you don't say yes to that, they don't follow the same rules... and your argument takes a hit.

First I define conception as the time when the sperm meets the egg. As for miscarrages, the woman has no control over nature and has no responsability when the child dies of a miscarriage, where as in abortion the woman is completly aware of what is going on.

Let's get a bit deeper into the issue. What is special about humans? Is it because your religion tells you humans are special? Is it because you think only humans have some certain mental capacity? Is it some arbitrary distinction you just feel? If it's religious, it should not be made into secular law... unless you want to have to follow the laws of all other religions, as well. If it's because you think we're the only smart beings with reasoning, emotion, etc... that's an arrogant assumption (with a lot of evidence to the contrary). I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why killing a full-grown cow for leather shoes is fine while killing an unfeeling, mindless embryo because you don't want to suffer through child birth is evil... or are you also a vegetarian... and a pacifist?

If humans aren't special why is it that no other creature has been able to overtake our dominion of the world? It's because man has intellect, morals, and the ability of self control. Do you see the cows talking to eachother, discussing the latest appointment to the supreme court justice? do you see the camels driving tanks in the middle east? We are far superior. The only thing greater in animals than in humans is their tasty meat.

Growth, alone, does not a human make. Every living organism grows. If the embryo is not alive yet by the medical standards used to determine if a human is still alive, why should a woman be forced to carry the embryo to a full term? IMO, abortion is only wrong once the fetus has the ability to feel pain and/or is conscious of its surroundings... but, because we can't really measure that very well (there are machines to detect fetal brain activity, but they are relatively new and expensive), I would use a conservative estimate of about 5 weeks. At that time, the heart is making its first beats and other organs like the lungs and brain stem are starting to appear. Plus, it gives you 3-4 weeks after you can find out whether you are pregnant or not (1-2 weeks depending on the self-testing method and even less if you get a blood test) to have the procedure done.

The point is that all people start out in the same way, which is the union of sperm and egg. If we view this stage as not living, why can't we just skip this step and see what happens?

Also, "potential" isn't really a great argument. Where there is potential for it to become Einstein, there is also potential for it to become Hitler. Where there is potential for a doctor, there is potential for a drug dealer. I have the potential to die tomorrow. Should I act accordingly?

But where do we get the right to say who dies and who doesn't

 

[satch919]

If humans aren't special why is it that no other creature has been able to overtake our dominion of the world? It's because man has intellect, morals, and the ability of self control. Do you see the cows talking to eachother, discussing the latest appointment to the supreme court justice? do you see the camels driving tanks in the middle east? We are far superior. The only thing greater in animals than in humans is their tasty meat.

Evolution. We evolved quicker than other species. It's been reported recently that chimps are evolving quicker than we are now. Given time, it's possible that another species might reach our level of intelligence. However, we'd probably enslave or erradicate them before they got to that point though.

I consider the human race to be animals. Wouldn't you? By the way people act at times, it's easy to observe.

The point is that all people start out in the same way, which is the union of sperm and egg. If we view this stage as not living, why can't we just skip this step and see what happens?

Look up parthenogenesis. It was brought up in my biology class last semester.

 

[Last One In]

Evolution. We evolved quicker than other species. It's been reported recently that chimps are evolving quicker than we are now. Given time, it's possible that another species might reach our level of intelligence. However, we'd probably enslave or erradicate them before they got to that point though.

I consider the human race to be animals. Wouldn't you? By the way people act at times, it's easy to observe.




Look up parthenogenesis. It was brought up in my biology class last semester.

Intersting read. Although it has advantage in numbers, the organisms have an environmental adaptive disadvantage. Also the populations aren't very variable as the offspring are nearly identicle to their parents. But with humans we have diversity and individuality.

 

[satch919]

Intersting read. Although it has advantage in numbers, the organisms have an environmental adaptive disadvantage. Also the populations aren't very variable as the offspring are nearly identicle to their parents. But with humans we have diversity and individuality.

I agree. But the possibility of it happening is there and that avenue will be pursued to understand genetics.

 

[Sulkdodds]

But where do we get the right to say who dies and who doesn't?

Every sperm has potential. 'When the sperm an egg unite' is (to re-use an over-used phrase) just as arbitrary a line to draw as anywhere else, isn't it?

 

[Eg.]

If we count sprem as seperate living entities, most of us are responsible for multiple genocides.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You've been so blinded by the media bullshit that you can't see the plain and obvious opinion that from the moment of conception there is a living being GROWING within the womb of a woman.

Fixed.

 

[Last One In]

Fixed.

1984 style huh? And it is a fact there is a living being growing within thw womb

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Depending entirely on your definition of "life"

 

[Sulkdodds]

I thought the issue was whether it was conscious and not whether it was living?

/me sits on his cat

 

[Top Secret]

My mom would be dead right now if she couldn't have aborted her second baby.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I don't like to talk about this topic that much, since I know two girls who've had abortions. I fully support their choice.

It's their body, and it's their (and in some cases their boyfriend's) decision.

 

[Last One In]

How were they feeling after the abortions? were they sad or were they relieved or what?

 

[OCybrManO]

Honestly, that doesn't really reveal anything... because you still have to isolate the reaction from the many years of tradition and peer pressure built up against abortion... which isn't possible. If you tried to start a money lending business in the Middle Ages or earlier... you'd probably feel really guilty/awkward because usury (at the time, any charge for borrowing money) was reviled... and even a sin. Now, it's a morally acceptable and highly lucrative industry. That's just one example of society removing the stick from its collective ass.

 

[gick]

But, as pointed out earlier, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion then every time you have a wank, then you must be guilty of mass genocide, because of all the millions of potential lives you've wasted. If you use a condom you are guilty of the same thing. If you have sex with the missus and she does get pregnant then you must be guilty of the murder of all the thousands of potential lives that couldnt swim fast enough.

 

[Lemonking]

I don't like to talk about this topic that much, since I know two girls who've had abortions. I fully support their choice.

It's their body, and it's their (and in some cases their boyfriend's) decision.

I also know 2 girls that did that,and even thoe I think it should be them deciding.its murder.you are killing a living being inside of you.The only reason why those 2 girls I know got pregant is becuase they are stupid party sluts.They would have learend there leasson If they had given birth.....but ey lets just take this "Plan B" pill that will solve the probelm :|

 

[Eg.]

But, as pointed out earlier, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion then every time you have a wank, then you must be guilty of mass genocide, because of all the millions of potential lives you've wasted. If you use a condom you are guilty of the same thing. If you have sex with the missus and she does get pregnant then you must be guilty of the murder of all the thousands of potential lives that couldnt swim fast enough.

finally, i was quoted and appreciated in this disscusion.

 

[CptStern]

I also know 2 girls that did that,and even thoe I think it should be them deciding.its murder.you are killing a living being inside of you.The only reason why those 2 girls I know got pregant is becuase they are stupid party sluts.They would have learend there leasson If they had given birth.....but ey lets just take this "Plan B" pill that will solve the probelm :|

if you're talking about the morning after pill (which can only be taken up to 72 hours after fertilization and only then on medical advice) the "baby" is a 2 celled organism ..by month's end it is 1/5th of an inch long

 

[ComradeBadger]

I also know 2 girls that did that,and even thoe I think it should be them deciding.its murder.you are killing a living being inside of you.The only reason why those 2 girls I know got pregant is becuase they are stupid party sluts.They would have learend there leasson If they had given birth.....but ey lets just take this "Plan B" pill that will solve the probelm :|

Except in both cases that I know of, the girls were loyal, didn't shag around etc...

And the emotional trauma that ensued surely made sure they 'learned their lesson'. I find that idea kind of sickening personally, you have no right to lay that sort of ultimate judgement on a person.

 

[Last One In]

Except in both cases that I know of, the girls were loyal, didn't shag around etc...

And the emotional trauma that ensued surely made sure they 'learned their lesson'. I find that idea kind of sickening personally, you have no right to lay that sort of ultimate judgement on a person.

So do you think they would have been better off having the baby?

 

[GhostBoi]

Analogies are cool. With that in mind, here's a special story: :imu:

I remember when I was about 6 or 7 my family and I used to take frequent visits to my Grandparents' house. It was a very nice house, and my Grandma took care of it very well. She was particulary fond of her prize rosebush, which would come into full bloom around late spring.

During one of our visit's to Grandma's house, I, like any dumb little boy, got bored and started getting into trouble. I was wondering around the backyard up to no good, when I spied my Grandma's rosebush, the budds not yet in bloom. Naturally, being a 6 year old and all, I ran over to the bush and picked off every single budd.

Needless to say, Grandma was not at all pleased with me when she found out. It was obvious that she was upset, but she was kind to me even in her scolding. She said "I am very dissapointed in you. Why did you ruin my favorite rosebush?" I replied "Rosebush, Grandma? But I didn't see any roses!" She pointed to a freshly picked rosebudd still in my hand. "Do you see all these green budds?" "yes, grammaw, but these aren't roses." "No, they aren't; but even though they might not look like much, after a little while these little budds can grow and become beautiful flowers." then I was all like "wtf lol" and then my parents grounded me for like a month.

Let me explain this parable to thee:
dumb 6 year old me = "pro choice" people
roses = babies
Grandma = awsome

Get it? Even though unborn babies may not be considered humans just as rosebudds may not be considered roses, "picking the rosebudd" is still wrong. The point is that with a healthy, normal fetus, (which the majority of aborted fetuses are I do believe) if it is left alone, it WILL become a new life, regardless of wether it is alive by definition or not. As far as I'm converned, preventing a life is just the same as ending a life. But that's just me.

One problem, roses don't just bloom on thier own, nor do babies just get nutrients on their own.
That analogy would be like if a doctor strapped a woman into a chair and forced her into an abortion. A more accurate analogy would be if your grandmother was the one to choose to remove remove the buds. In which case I'm sure she would have her reasons and wouldn't feel as bad about it.

 

[Last One In]

One problem, roses don't just bloom on thier own, nor do babies just get nutrients on their own.
That analogy would be like if a doctor strapped a woman into a chair and forced her into an abortion. A more accurate analogy would be if your grandmother was the one to choose to remove remove the buds. In which case I'm sure she would have her reasons and wouldn't feel as bad about it.

Can't you see with your eyes that abortion is bad for everyone? It kills the child and messes up the mother emotionally.

 

[JNightshade]

Not true and not true. Like I said before, whether something at that stage of development can be considered alive in the most commonly used sense is extremely controversial: it's extremely naive and dangerous to simply decide "yes, it is". Furthermore, a friend of mine had an abortion over the summer (antibiotics screwed up the birth control) and she said it wasn't anything like she expected. It didn't "mess her up" at all. I suppose, if you insist on considering a fetus to be "alive" then perhaps an abortion would mess you up...or not. The fact is, it all depends.

However, sweeping statements like "abortion is bad for everyone"- now THOSE are bad for everyone.

 

[Last One In]

Not true and not true. Like I said before, whether something at that stage of development can be considered alive in the most commonly used sense is extremely controversial: it's extremely naive and dangerous to simply decide "yes, it is". Furthermore, a friend of mine had an abortion over the summer (antibiotics screwed up the birth control) and she said it wasn't anything like she expected. It didn't "mess her up" at all. I suppose, if you insist on considering a fetus to be "alive" then perhaps an abortion would mess you up...or not. The fact is, it all depends.

However, sweeping statements like "abortion is bad for everyone"- now THOSE are bad for everyone.

Abortion stops the child from being born. Period. Where there was going to be a joyful baby, there will not be one. Where there would be a new life, there will be none. To say that abortion doesn't kill the child is both illogical and rediculous. I know the pro-choice agenda wants you to believe that the child in the womb is just a glob of cells who isn't a baby till its born, but the fact is that if that "glob of cells" is destroyed, no child will be born. USE YOU GOD DAMN LOGIC AND REALIZE THAT IT IS MURDER TO EXTINGUISH A LIFE!

 

[GhostBoi]

Abortion stops the child from being born. Period. Where there was going to be a joyful baby, there will not be one. Where there would be a new life, there will be none. To say that abortion doesn't kill the child is both illogical and rediculous. I know the pro-choice agenda wants you to believe that the child in the womb is just a glob of cells who isn't a baby till its born, but the fact is that if that "glob of cells" is destroyed, no child will be born. USE YOU GOD DAMN LOGIC AND REALIZE THAT IT IS MURDER TO EXTINGUISH A LIFE!

There would be a life, but the child has no knowledge of this and it cannot feel anything at the time in which most abortions take place. Also there would be life in your sperm if you went and had sex. Sperm also has no knowledge of this and cannot feel itself dying either. So if the women does not feel as though she was ready and made a mistake, or didn't fully think through the ramifications beforehand, why can't we leave the option for the one party in this whole ordeal that actually can feel pain and have knowledge of whats going on to make the choice of abortion or not.

 

[pvtbones]

Abortion stops the child from being born. Period. Where there was going to be a joyful baby, there will not be one. Where there would be a new life, there will be none. To say that abortion doesn't kill the child is both illogical and rediculous. I know the pro-choice agenda wants you to believe that the child in the womb is just a glob of cells who isn't a baby till its born, but the fact is that if that "glob of cells" is destroyed, no child will be born. USE YOU GOD DAMN LOGIC AND REALIZE THAT IT IS MURDER TO EXTINGUISH A LIFE!

by your logic we have committed genocide several times over.

 

[Last One In]

by your logic we have committed genocide several times over.

Genocide is the targeting of a specific race, so I wouldn't call it genocide. I would call it abuse of the body and of nature, as well as murder.

 

[GhostBoi]

Genocide is the targeting of a specific race, so I wouldn't call it genocide. I would call it abuse of the body and of nature, as well as murder.

You can't murder a human life if there isn't one there in the first place. So, since we can't all agree on a definition of it it is a religious view as to where you put it, making a law respecting this view would be bringing church and state together, which is something our forefathers and everyone seems to be against, that is until one of their views isn't being pushed on others.

 

[Last One In]

You can't murder a human life if there isn't one there in the first place. So, since we can't all agree on a definition of it it is a religious view as to where you put it, making a law respecting this view would be bringing church and state together, which is something our forefathers and everyone seems to be against, that is until one of their views isn't being pushed on others.

If I was a baby I would be disappointed if my mother killed me before I was born. I would have become a unique individual with a distinct personality but my mother had me aborted.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

No, you would not have the slightest concept of birth, motherhood, individuality or abortion.

In fact, it's more than likely you wouldn't even have a functional nervous system.

You're romanticising the fetus in ways that aren't factual. Therefore, you have no right to argue for the universal application of your beliefs.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

There would be a life, but the child has no knowledge of this and it cannot feel anything at the time in which most abortions take place.

If I killed you in your sleep, you would have no knowledge of it and would not feel anything at the time.

But lets say I'm a nice guy, so I decide to wait untill you wake up and ask you nicely whether I should kill you or not. Gee, what do you think your answer would be?

Now just replace "you" with "babies", sleep with "the womb", and wake up with "be born", and you should get the idea.

Also there would be life in your sperm if you went and had sex. Sperm also has no knowledge of this and cannot feel itself dying either.

See my previous post.

 

[pvtbones]

If I killed you in your sleep, you would have no knowledge of it and would not feel anything at the time.

But lets say I'm a nice guy, so I decide to wait untill you wake up and ask you nicely whether I should kill you or not. Gee, what do you think your answer would be?

Now just replace "you" with "babies", sleep with "the womb", and wake up with "be born", and you should get the idea.


See my previous post.

if you had the intent to sneak into my room, wiht a weapon and are capable of killing me I doubt it would matter if I said yes or no so it's irrelevant to the discussing.

 

[Last One In]

if you had the intent to sneak into my room, wiht a weapon and are capable of killing me I doubt it would matter if I said yes or no so it's irrelevant to the discussing.

Although you should have a choice in the matter, you don't. Someone has taken your life unlawfully and cowardly. Crimes like this cannot be overlooked in society.

 

[JNightshade]

Look, Last One In. I'm assuming you're a guy here. Now, if you want to change all this, go out and buy yourself a vagina. Because otherwise, it's not your body, your views don't mean JACK SHIT, and you have no say. Neither do I, for that matter. Just let women do what they choose to do.

 

[Last One In]

Look, Last One In. I'm assuming you're a guy here. Now, if you want to change all this, go out and buy yourself a vagina. Because otherwise, it's not your body, your views don't mean JACK SHIT, and you have no say. Neither do I, for that matter. Just let women do what they choose to do.

Even let them commit murder on an unborn child? We should put people in jail for such things.

 

[OCybrManO]

Once again, "taken your life" and "murder" requires a belief that said life (in the human sense) begins at conception or that whole post doesn't relate to the topic at hand. In the beginning, the embryo is alive in the sense that bacteria or a plant is alive... in that it has no heart, brain, nerves, lungs, etc. It grows and can die, but it does not exhibit other characteristics of human life, yet. By the time birth rolls around, it definitely qualifies. Somewhere along the line you have to draw a line. IMO, a brain is the big requirement for being considered a higher life form. So, that seems like a good cut-off point. If you have a decent non-religious reason for considering a single, specific kind of one-celled (at your definition of conception) organism as being on the same level as you or me... I'd like to hear it.

 

[Last One In]

Once again, "taken your life" and "murder" requires a belief that said life (in the human sense) begins at conception or that whole post doesn't relate to the topic at hand. In the beginning, the embryo is alive in the sense that bacteria or a plant is alive... in that it has no heart, brain, nerves, lungs, etc. It grows and can die, but it does not exhibit other characteristics of human life, yet. By the time birth rolls around, it definitely qualifies. Somewhere along the line you have to draw a line. IMO, a brain is the big requirement for being considered a higher life form. So, that seems like a good cut-off point. If you have a decent non-religious reason for considering a single, specific kind of one-celled (at your definition of conception) organism as being on the same level as you or me... I'd like to hear it.

Because everything that makes that person who her or she is going to be is there. namely the chromosomes.