Can VALVe Sue Microsoft?

[Yatta]

This is a serious question. I'm aware the hacker would not have been able to break into VALVe's machines if a security flaw in the Windows (TM) Operating system were to have been fixed by Microsoft earlier this year or anytime before the hack attempt.

What are your ideas in this matter, my friendly forumers?

 

[Benji]

it's a possibility, however we don't know any details so it's pointless to debate about this for now

 

[Devosse]

quite simply no, it is the responsibility of the client to download patchs and updates....

 

[Shuzer]

Seems to me that they'd be able to, from what I've heard.. I'm not an expert on law, nor do I claim to know anything about the system.. but, yeah.. I doubt there will be any lawsuits, though, and if there is.. I just hope there isn't

Edit: Devosse, do you have any idea how MANY exploits and bugs are in Outlook Express that go unpatched?

 

[Peleus]

My opinion is you don't know what your talking about. Microsoft DID fix the exploit long before the hacking.

Its valves 'fault' for not updating their security patches.

Lets not turn this into a "Its valves own fault for being hacked" thread.

 

[Yatta]

Originally posted by Devosse
quite simply no, it is the responsibility of the client to download patchs and updates....

But I think VALVe does keep their machines up-to-date in termins of security. There hasn't been a patch for this flaw, as far as I know.

 

[Yatta]

Originally posted by Peleus
My opinion is you don't know what your talking about. Microsoft DID fix the exploit long before the hacking.

Its valves 'fault' for not updating their security patches.

Lets not turn this into a "Its valves own fault for being hacked" thread.

Oh, I hadn't seen that thread. So it IS VALVe's fault for not updating their systems. The people in charge of security are a bunch of idiots there.:flame:

 

[0zz0]

well isnt it vavle choice on who they use for and os or could they only use windows. If so it was their choice to use windows they could have used something else.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

This is America. Anyone can sue anyone for anything anytime! That's what makes this country great, dammit!

 

[justice strike]

you could sue microsoft... chances that you will win are slim. what would probably happen is that microsoft would:

1. counter sue (they would find something to counter sue)
2. make the trial process so expensive that legal costs would bankrupt valve
3. would buy up valve.

quite simply not an option

 

[Peleus]

Who cares, either way valve is the one who has to suffer the concequences and I'm sure they feel crap enough about having their stuff stolen. We don't have to repeat it was their fault 30,000 times on the forum though. Its been said, let it go.

 

[cpu killer]

4. Will eat most of valves staff's first born child, and tell them that theyll make sliced bread extinct by release of windows longhorn, making valve take a step back as to what theyd be doing..

remeber, all is possible, were dealing with microsoft..

Edit: And frankly, you think anyone has enough money to succesfully sue microsoft? hehe, i think ur forgetting whos one of the biggest most powerful coorporations in the world, and also - no one has successfully done it b4, why would valve start now?

Edit (again): And heck , if they think windows is too buggy, well the whole WORLD knows that man, its not news, windows always has been and always will be buggy, we live in a world driven by the m$ monopoly, if they dont like MS, they can get linux and try to find all the software they need to possibly run on it...Gabe knows how bad windows is, he helped code w95..(which is still my favorite version of windows, but support for it *somehow* has become extinct, well, any win 9X in that matter, microsoft seems to want to FORCE you onto XP, well screw them im running 98se hapilly...XP just screwed with my life and im running a p4 2.4 ,512mb ddr333, a killer system in all...)

 

[Devosse]

Originally posted by Shuzer
Seems to me that they'd be able to, from what I've heard.. I'm not an expert on law, nor do I claim to know anything about the system.. but, yeah.. I doubt there will be any lawsuits, though, and if there is.. I just hope there isn't

Edit: Devosse, do you have any idea how MANY exploits and bugs are in Outlook Express that go unpatched?

Thank you, yes i have, i seem to spend my life writing KIX scripts for a large telecoms company's corprate network log on scripts, to distribute said patchs.....I would be illegal for M$ to put anything on your computer with out your permission, so heance you are responsible for you security, unless they sub-contract out to a private computer security firm, then it would be them at fault, hence they could be sued, as you americans seem ever so keen on....So once again i say no M$ are not at fault.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

Originally posted by Devosse
Thank you, yes i have, i seem to spend my life writing KIX scripts for a large telecoms company's corprate network log on scripts, to distribute said patchs.....I would be illegal for M$ to put anything on your computer with out your permission, so heance you are responsible for you security, unless they sub-contract out to a private computer security firm, then it would be them at fault, hence they could be sued, as you americans seem ever so keen on....So once again i say no M$ are not at fault.

Not entirely true. Microsoft can be, and has been, sued for making products which have security flaws. They've lost a lot of those cases too (and they payed out mostly with "free" Microsoft software, what a racket). Even some elements of the US Government were talking seriously about the possibility of suing Microsoft for flaws that led to hackers breaking into FBI and DOJ servers, among others. So Microsoft could be sued by Valve over this and I have no doubt that if this incident drove Valve into the ground financially they would file the lawsuit in a heartbeat. But being that the owners are former Microsoftians themselves I don't see a lawsuit happening.

 

[Comreak]

Nah, it'd be a waste of money. I'd rather see them continue development of HL2.

 

[silent]

I don't think Valve can sue microsoft for security updates but I DO think they can sue microsoft regarding outlook. It wouldn't work in my opinion because microsoft is too powerful, and when it comes to networks, I think in Microsoft's disclaimer/agreement, you can't sue them.

 

[BlumenKohl]

You know that User Agreement you click through when you install Office or Outlook? Yeah....

 

[oMarKs]

Originally posted by Unnamed_Player
This is America. Anyone can sue anyone for anything anytime! That's what makes this country great, dammit!

hahaha

they wont sue microsoft, not a chance. gabe is good mates with them, as he used to work for them!

 

[Devosse]

I'm not sure what it is with most americans but your always looking for some one else to blame it on......Grow up, its YOUR computer, its YOUR responsibility....This woudl be laughed out of court in the UK. The judge would just ask, " did you update to the latest patch?", valve " No, your honour". Judge "then stop wasting my time!"
They have a saying in Japan, Fix the problem not the blame......You guys are always so busy trying to blame someone that you never fix the problem.....
flame away.....

 

[Spacemonkey]

Its a complex issue. However no they cant sue microsoft. Same logic that you cant sue gun manufactorurs if you get shot with one of their guns.

What would be funny is if microsoft sued valve over the directx code in the source leak.

Doubtful, as they are close partners.

 

[staddydaddy]

There are many exploits in many microsoft products that do not have patches to fix. Therefore even though VALVe had all of its systems up to date, they still could have been compromised. No one forced VALVe to use microsoft products. That's like suing a gun company because someone used a gun to shoot up a building.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

Originally posted by Devosse
I'm not sure what it is with most americans but your always looking for some one else to blame it on......Grow up, its YOUR computer, its YOUR responsibility....This woudl be laughed out of court in the UK. The judge would just ask, " did you update to the latest patch?", valve " No, your honour". Judge "then stop wasting my time!"
They have a saying in Japan, Fix the problem not the blame......You guys are always so busy trying to blame someone that you never fix the problem.....
flame away.....

Like I said, in America anyone can sue anyone for anything. Spill hot coffee on yourself? No problem. It's not your fault, it's the person that sold it to you, and you can sue (despite the fact that even my cat is smart enough not to dump scalding liquid on himself). Car get hit by a train because you were a dumbass and stopped on the tracks? No problem, it was obviously the railroads fault for not putting up a warning gate. Smoked for 20 years and got lung cancer? Well shit, go and sue the company that made the cigs for a billion dollars, it doesn't matter that there is a warning label on every pack that tells you that they cause lung cancer. Used that hair dryer in the shower and shocked yourself....well you get the idea.

I've never seen a lawyer going hungry in America.

 

[Spacemonkey]

I've never seen a lawyer going hungry in America.

Then you dont know how many law graduates in the states dont get employed.

But thanks for listening to mainstream infortainment press and not knowing anything about the law.

 

[silent]

Originally posted by Spacemonkey
Then you dont know how many law graduates in the states dont get employed.

But thanks for listening to mainstream infortainment press and not knowing anything about the law.

That is so much bs! The government is always looking for lawyers. Plus private firms love just-graduated law students cause they come prepared and cheap. That's like saying it is hard to find a job in the field of digital art... no, it's not.

 

[rndhotdog]

::::grabs wads of money and puts into suitcase:::: :::ushes button on intercom::: "Sally pleas have my jet ready for takeoff in 5"...."Yes sir mr gates"

 

[silent]

"oh and sally."
"Yes Mr. Gates?"
"Wear that lingerie I so dearly love"
sally giggles
"yes sir!"

 

[rndhotdog]

"silent wake up it's time for school."

 

[silent]

DAMNIT

 

[Kadayi]

A lot of people are very dismissive of valves security arrangements, but fail to take note of the fact that this was carried out by a very skilled and determined hacking crew.

Precious as the source code is, I'm quite sure Valve weren't expecting to be targetted by people who can probably hack their way through most commercial firewalls with ease. After all their not a bank or the CIA or anything, they are a games company. Valves a big fish in the games world, but in comparision to companies outside of the gaming industry they are minnows.

And as regards running everything over an internal network, naturally they needed internet access so they could undoubtably test out how the multiplayer would work over the net (and internal Lan isn't ever going to replicate that sort of effect). Also in the world of reality, time is of the essence and practicality dictates you work efficently. Flip-flopping between an internal network and external access would be a tremenous pain in the ass (as would having to manually transfer data between the two using static media to keep things vanilla).

 

[Devosse]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
A lot of people are very dismissive of valves security arrangements, but fail to take note of the fact that this was carried out by a very skilled and determined hacking crew.

Precious as the source code is, I'm quite sure Valve weren't expecting to be targetted by people who can probably hack their way through most commercial firewalls with ease. After all their not a bank or the CIA or anything, they are a games company. Valves a big fish in the games world, but in comparision to companies outside of the gaming industry they are minnows.

And as regards running everything over an internal network, naturally they needed internet access so they could undoubtably test out how the multiplayer would work over the net (and internal Lan isn't ever going to replicate that sort of effect). Also in the world of reality, time is of the essence and practicality dictates you work efficently. Flip-flopping between an internal network and external access would be a tremenous pain in the ass (as would having to manually transfer data between the two using static media to keep things vanilla).

I agree but i am surprise but the lack of use of a " sourcesafe", which is the way most developers seem to work these days...this would of prevent this issue from occuring...But what do i know...

 

[hl-er]

Outlook exploit that was used to install remote anywhere is an ancient exploit, MS released a patch ages ago, it's VALVe's fault, period.

 

[Steven Seagal]

When you install Windows you have to agree to the EULA. I don't know if there is something specific pertaining to this situation, but EULA's basically are agreements saying: "WE ARE NOT LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING, YOU CAN'T SUE US. WE HOWEVER CAN SUE THE **** OUT OF YOU, K THX"

I know it has stuff about air traffic control or life support where people can die.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

Originally posted by Spacemonkey
Then you dont know how many law graduates in the states dont get employed.

But thanks for listening to mainstream infortainment press and not knowing anything about the law.

Bullshit. There isn't a law student out there who couldn't drag up a job as some ambulance chasing lawyer. They just get it into their heads that they're going to be some kind of righteous moral crusader or some bullshit like that. The jobs for lawyers are all over you just have to check your ethics at the door to work them.

BTW, I know a shitload more about the law than you'd ever care to know. My brother is a lawyer (on the DA's staff), my brother in law is a police officer and my uncle was a public defender before he retired. So don't even presume to think that you know me.

 

[Steven Seagal]

Here's part of it:
NO LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. To
the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, in no event shall
Manufacturer or its suppliers be liable for any damages
whatsoever (including without limitation, special, incidental,
consequential, or indirect damages for personal injury, loss of
business profits, business interruption, loss of business
information, or any other pecuniary loss)

 

[Spacemonkey]

EULA's arent binding contracts. They are sort of lesser agreements.

Also many EULA arent show till after you purchase the software. These arent legal.

 

[Steven Seagal]

100% of shrink-wrapped software shows the EULA during installation, which is after you have purchased it. They all say "if you don't agree to this you must cancel installation and get a refund" so you aren't forced to agree to it...

How are EULA's able to get away with language like this if they aren't legal?

IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This End-User
License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you
(either an individual or a single legal entity) and the
manufacturer

I don't really understand... probably because I'm not related to lawyers like Unnamed_Player, LOL.

 

[XtAkm4p]

valve shouldve run an email program noones heard of... or better yet, create their own. there are shitloads of mac exploits.... but have u heard of them? no! cuz no one cares. outlook has exploits cuz people are looking for them. end of story. valve cannot sure unless MS advertised 100% guarenteed security. other than that, any leaks due to their program (outlook) is the consumers (valve) shit to deal with. unless someone died... but that has more to do with car companies fcuking up, not software companies.

end of story

 

[richpull]

The law isnt as cut and dry as you think it is, if I signed an agreement that says i forfeit my rights to sue my college while im attending for anything at all including negligent acts by the part of the staff, and a staff member places fishing line across walkways and people are decapitated he would be tried criminally for murder and in civil court for wrongful death, the school would also be sued if the teacher had a questionable background or someone on the staff could have stopped him but didn't. While you might sign away a right, a jury can still find that you deserve a reward for losses.
Valve could sue Microsoft for being negligent in how the source for Outlook was written without regard for security, and how the patches to fix this werent properly advertised and Valve was not aware of any patches.

 

[S1nF1xx]

If people could sue a software company for everytime their systems were hacked/infected, do you think any software company would still be in business?

 

[staddydaddy]

Originally posted by silent
That is so much bs! The government is always looking for lawyers. Plus private firms love just-graduated law students cause they come prepared and cheap. That's like saying it is hard to find a job in the field of digital art... no, it's not.

No, accually you're wrong. Law graduates have the highest levels of unemployment out of any major or blachelor. Moron.