Canadian police prevent terrorist attack in Ontario

[gick]

apologist

How in hell is stern an apologist? He's just giving his opinion as to the reasons behind the 9/11 hijackers. I dont see how he is agreeing with them in the slightest.

 

[jverne]

How in hell is stern an apologist? He's just giving his opinion as to the reasons behind the 9/11 hijackers. I dont see how he is agreeing with them in the slightest.

i know it's contageus here..."you're with us or against us"...

i'm sure it it was not religious motivations...i like the explanation in that movie staring George Clooney...forgot it's name.

people are desperate, probably the US bombings killed some loved ones and they want revenge! i think the answer is quite simple.

 

[gick]

TBH, I think Stabby hit the nail on the head when he said that religion is just the unifying factor (or words to that effect).

 

[Yuri]

..says the holocaust denier.

What Stern is said is perfectly true.
The terrorists aren't insane. Nor are they purely religious fundamentalists. Their attacks are a retaliation of what they see as long-term abuses against their people by the US and the western world at large. Setting up bases in mideast countries and etc.
Their religious extremism only fuels that fire.

Just because they're amoral doesn't mean they are somehow inhuman.

Sure, we can see why they do these awful, atrocious things. We can see how they rationalize it in their heads.

But they are not inhuman? People who specifically target innocent civilians for slaughter are not inhuman, they are just "amoral?" I beg to differ. We could discuss this on some sort of "point of view" basis, sure, and maybe they are saints to some people. But that does not change the fact that in the eyes of a civilized human being, they are inhuman for what they attempt to do. Nothing gives them the right nor the excuse to commit to such awful things. And depending on your definition of psychopath, I would be willing to classify as one of them, too.

 

[Lemonking]

Sure, we can see why they do these awful, atrocious things. We can see how they rationalize it in their heads.

But they are not inhuman? People who specifically target innocent civilians for slaughter are not inhuman, they are just "amoral?" I beg to differ. We could discuss this on some sort of "point of view" basis, sure, and maybe they are saints to some people. But that does not change the fact that in the eyes of a civilized human being, they are inhuman for what they attempt to do. Nothing gives them the right nor the excuse to commit to such awful things. And depending on your definition of psychopath, I would be willing to classify as one of them, too.

agreed,I also dont see how blowing up a wedding,somehow hurts the west,As for as I recall that was a muslim wedding,so other then being crazy and stupid and inhuman why did they blow up those weddings?

 

[Tr0n]

They're trying to see who can get the most points.

 

[Lemonking]

They're trying to see who can get the most points.

lol,




Mustafa:I blew 4 Weddings today.
Mamut:Hah praise Alah I blew 7!
Mustafa: omg hax

 

[Yuri]

Well, you can't classify all terrorists as "they" as its not like they really have terrorist meetings, its mostly small groups acting alone...

But anyone who attempts to blow up buildings filled with innocent people is indisputably inhuman.

 

[CptStern]

I question history,that doesnt make an apologist.

fool, charlatan, half wit ...ya I'd say that describes you more accurately




and no I dont think they're inhuman ..it's just a matter of perspective ..some are so indoctrinated into thinking that their cause is just and that the ends justify the means ...kinda like how americans turn a blind eye to all the civlians killed by US bombing/soldiers

there's quite a few people in this forum that I whole heartedly believe would become tools of the same sort of ideology had the roles been reversed.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

But anyone who attempts to blow up buildings filled with innocent people is indisputably inhuman.

Sadly, inhumanity is all too human.

Religion is a human trait, and the side-effect of extremism always accompanies it.
The ability to decieve oneself or others is quintessentially human.
Irrational violence is the same deal.

There is no time or place or place on Earth where murders and massacres haven't occured. Only the motives differ, vaguely.

My point isn't that we should forgive the people or that we should just give up.
The point is that the people doing these things almost always have a reason. And since they either control the law or ignore the law, they consider these to be the best reasons.

I've heard it said that something like a quarter of all people qualify as non-criminal psychopaths. It's way more common than anyone expects.

 

[Lemonking]

fool, charlatan, half wit ...ya I'd say that describes you more accurately




and no I dont think they're inhuman ..it's just a matter of perspective ..some are so indoctrinated into thinking that their cause is just and that the ends justify the means ...kinda like how americans turn a blind eye to all the civlians killed by US bombing/soldiers

there's quite a few people in this forum that I whole heartedly believe would become tools of the same sort of ideology had the roles been reversed.

What ever you say Mr.Office twat

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You know, for someone that's been banned several times recently, you really seem to be pushing for that ultra-special, all-inclusive permanent ban. Keep this up, and I'll be all too happy to oblige you.

 

[Lemonking]

so its ok,If he insults but as soon as I say something its not okay?

 

[Ome_Vince]

the camps were also semi permanent residences

do you people honestly believe the terrorists followed through on 9/11 because they're crazy/their god commanded them to?

Semi-permanent residences.. for terrorists and their families?...
And then they're pissed that civilians get killed? A tragedy but no surprise, how about not mixing "military" and civilians next time...

As for 9/11, what do you really believe the suicide hijackers motivation was, considering they had nothing to do with the training camps and one of them even lived in Germany..
On top of that there are cockpit recordings in which in the transcripts you can read they yelled "Allah Ackbar Allah Ackbar"(allah is the greatest), which imo proves that the religious aspect was a main motivation to actually carry the act through (like some sort of sick moral support).

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

so its ok,If he insults but as soon as I say something its not okay?

He's not as close to a ban as it's possible to be without actually being banned. You are. Perspective.

 

[CptStern]

Semi-permanent residences.. for terrorists and their families?...

here read this

And then they're pissed that civilians get killed? A tragedy but no surprise, how about not mixing "military" and civilians next time...

one of the targets bombed was said to be a front for making WMD but was actually a pharmaceutical company

"[W]ithin days of the attack, some of the administration's explanations for destroying the factory in Sudan proved inaccurate. Many people inside and outside the U.S. government began to ask whether questionable intelligence had prompted the United States to blow up the wrong building.

"Senior officials now say their case for attacking the factory relied on inference as well as evidence that it produced chemical weapons for bin Laden's use."

As for 9/11, what do you really believe the suicide hijackers motivation was, considering they had nothing to do with the training camps and one of them even lived in Germany..

I'm sure there was a multitude of reasons, but since they're all dead we cant exactly ask them can we?

On top of that there are cockpit recordings in which in the transcripts you can read they yelled "Allah Ackbar Allah Ackbar"(allah is the greatest), which imo proves that the religious aspect was a main motivation to actually carry the act through (like some sort of sick moral support).

yet for some odd reason they went to strip clubs and had girlfriends

Notably, Yousef, Murad, and Mohammed did not behave like Islamic militants while in the Philippines. As the Los Angeles Times reported, "In Manila, the trio acted like anything but Islamic terrorists. All had local girlfriends. They hung out at karaoke bars and strip clubs."

they dont sound all that religious to me

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing3/witness_mylroie.htm

 

[Sulkdodds]

so its ok,If he insults but as soon as I say something its not okay?

He insulted you based on your behaviour on these forums. I'm sure if you challenged him, he could back up everything he said with quotes and all.

'Mr Office Twat' is quite another thing entirely - a stupid, pointless and lame un-barb that doesn't really have anything to do with any behaviour he exhibits on these forums.

In summary: he's insulting you because he thinks you're acting like an idiot here, and you're insulting him based on nothing.

 

[CptStern]

to be fair, I do work in an office .....but I dont have a twat because I'm male




lemonking: you add nothing to this section except ignite flamewars ...your opinions are ignorant, nonsensical and above all hateful. Your childish attempts at trolling are more of an irritant than anything else ..be thankful that I restrain myself because otherwise you'd have developed an inferiority complex by now (although that may be a moot point ..... ) ...so in conclusion, stop wasting my time

 

[dream431ca]

I really don't believe they kill for their religion. They may believe something associated with their religon, but I'm skeptical about them killing for just a religion.

 

[Ome_Vince]

one of the targets bombed was said to be a front for making WMD but was actually a pharmaceutical company

Wasnt that plant making VX nervegas (or accused of doing so)? I vaguely remember such a thing.

yet for some odd reason they went to strip clubs and had girlfriends

they dont sound all that religious to me

Cmon stern you know the world is filled with hypocrits (especially within religious leaders).
Alot of followers/religious leaders of various religions have had their share of "sins".
Screwing whores at night and sitting in church the next day singing gospels being Mr Perfect.
Its the way humanity works


They might not have followed the strict "islamic code", yet they praised Allah before commiting the final act of suicide dragging thousands with them.

I didnt say religion was their main reason, whatever their reasons were, its pretty clear their "emotional motivation" was doing this in the name of Allah..

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Canada does have a pretty good record for preventing terrorism.
Why the hell would they attack Canada though? That's just stupid.

Mechagodzilla, you are missing the rhetoric. When they say, they hate the Western World, that means they also hate you and everyone else in Canada.

Of course, that statement would've been out of context if these arrests had'nt proved me right about future terror attacks and where they would be planned to occur next.

 

[CptStern]

Wasnt that plant making VX nervegas (or accused of doing so)? I vaguely remember such a thing.

read the link I gave you ..the evidence was collected from an alleged soil sample ..which they've never produced ..even US intelligence experts questioned it

Cmon stern you know the world is filled with hypocrits (especially within religious leaders).
Alot of followers/religious leaders of various religions have had their share of "sins".
Screwing whores at night and sitting in church the next day singing gospels being Mr Perfect.
Its the way humanity works

while I'm sure there's plenty of bacon eating rabbis and meat eating buddists I highly doubt anyone who's willing to kill themselves for their religion (as you suggest) are easily persuaded to break their most important laws/canons ...you cant expect them to be radicalised in one area and lax in others ...that's like saying that the pope gives into his urges and has premarital sex yet upholds all other rules

They might not have followed the strict "islamic code", yet they praised Allah before commiting the final act of suicide dragging thousands with them.

I didnt say religion was their main reason, whatever their reasons were, its pretty clear their "emotional motivation" was doing this in the name of Allah..

I dont agree ..they did it to further their agenda

Mechagodzilla, you are missing the rhetoric. When they say, they hate the Western World, that means they also hate you and everyone else in Canada.

Of course, that statement would've been out of context if these arrests had'nt proved me right about future terror attacks and where they would be planned to occur next.

ahh kerberos once again you didnt read the article ..they are not connected to ANY terrorist group and are in fact canadian citizens (some were even born in canada) not foreigners slipping into canada under the cover of darkness as you'd like to suggest

 

[Yuri]

Sadly, inhumanity is all too human.

Religion is a human trait, and the side-effect of extremism always accompanies it.
The ability to decieve oneself or others is quintessentially human.
Irrational violence is the same deal.

There is no time or place or place on Earth where murders and massacres haven't occured. Only the motives differ, vaguely.

My point isn't that we should forgive the people or that we should just give up.
The point is that the people doing these things almost always have a reason. And since they either control the law or ignore the law, they consider these to be the best reasons.

I've heard it said that something like a quarter of all people qualify as non-criminal psychopaths. It's way more common than anyone expects.

Wait, forgive what people? The people that were caught in the act of trying to blow up buildings filled with innocent men, women, and children? Or forgive those that have already commited such things and have since been arrested? Or forgive those which are directly responsible (as in, the actually terrorists involved) that have yet to be caught? Or forgive Iraq which has nothing to do with it in the first place ? Who the hell are we forgiving?

I also don't understand why we should give up trying to arrest people that try to kill innocents. That would be insane. Just because they have their reasons doesn't give them the right to retaliate against people who had NOTHING to do with what they are angry about. That's probably not what you intended with that comment, though.

And they are not non-criminal psychopaths if they are responsible for the slaughter of innocent lives... they are criminal psychopaths


Obviously, they have a motive. No one does anything without a motive. But it doesn't matter if George Bush personally came to your house, raped your pony, killed your family, and burnt it down. That is not grounds to kill innocent civilians of the country of which you now hate. Such murder can never be justified in the eyes of a civilized human being. There are no exceptions.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

ahh kerberos once again you didnt read the article ..they are not connected to ANY terrorist group and are in fact canadian citizens

Spare me of your condenscending notices CptStern, we both know the article described that they're group was connected to Al-Qaeda and trained themselves in that groups militant practises. Citing the article:

The detained suspects are all males, Canadian residents "from a variety of backgrounds" and followers of a "violent ideology inspired by al Qaeda," said Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for Canadian Security Intelligence Service. (Full list of adult suspects)

 

[CptStern]

Spare me of your condenscending notices CptStern, we both know the article described that they're group was connected to Al-Qaeda and trained themselves in that groups militant practises. Citing the article:

oh I'm sooo sorry ..I didnt realise that "connected" means "inspired", should have consulted the dictionary .....oh wait :upstare:

reading comprehension ftw

 

[K e r b e r o s]

reading comprehension ftw

I was'nt being critical of your mistakes CptStern. I was only just trying to remind you of what this group modeled itself after.

 

[CptStern]

my mistakes? you're the one who thinks "inspired" means the same as "connected"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

If you're inspired by someone to do something, don't you have some sort of connection with it? Contact with it?

You can't be inspired by something thats not there.

 

[Yuri]

If you're inspired by someone to do something, don't you have some sort of connection with it? Contact with it?

...no?

I am inspired by Ben Affleck's acting. It must mean we are bestest friends!

lol ben affleck's acting lololol

 

[K e r b e r o s]

But c'mon. Lets say your inspired by De Mona Lisa, and your art style borders on Da Vinci's. You had to copy it one way or another, and your only way of doing it would be to seek it out ... copy it ... watch it ... learn from it.

 

[Yuri]

How does that imply contact with it?

Dude, dictionaries are cheap.

 

[Raziaar]

Good Job Canada!

 

[CptStern]

But c'mon. Lets say your inspired by De Mona Lisa, and your art style borders on Da Vinci's. You had to copy it one way or another, and your only way of doing it would be to seek it out ... copy it ... watch it ... learn from it.

erestheux's Ben affleck analogy works (lol at Affleck and acting in the same sentence), yours doesnt

btw it's the mona lisa, not De



btw some of you may not realise that I live in the vicinity of the groups target

 

[DeusExMachina]

Affleck was DA BOMB in Phantoms.

Why can't we all just be happy that this didn't result in the death of people :|

 

[Ome_Vince]

read the link I gave you ..the evidence was collected from an alleged soil sample ..which they've never produced ..even US intelligence experts questioned it

I read it, thats great, i wasnt questioning it, simply asking if there was more conclusive info.

while I'm sure there's plenty of bacon eating rabbis and meat eating buddists I highly doubt anyone who's willing to kill themselves for their religion (as you suggest) are easily persuaded to break their most important laws/canons ...you cant expect them to be radicalised in one area and lax in others ...that's like saying that the pope gives into his urges and has premarital sex yet upholds all other rules

Mankinds hypocracy IS that they radicalise in one area, and make acceptions for themselves in other areas.
There are tons of religious nuts both christian, muslim and hindu falling for sexual lust (so its no surprise luni's fall for it aswell), or any other form of lust.

Rape, child abuse, animal sex etc, this all from within the circle of the most religious of people.

Most suicide terrorists, suicide bombers of whatever sort are not the kind of religious nutcases who walk around "dressed like a mullah or pope".
Witnesses always describe them as "regular chaps", and never expected this from those people.
Whether they seemed to fit into society, were party animals or calm background folks, they almost never fit the screaming stereotype many people have.

From the Japanese suicide squads to islamic suicide terrorists, they may have had thousands of reasons to hate or do what they are going to do but they need a morale boost.
Whether its extreme nationalism, brainwashing and indoctrination or religion, it doesnt matter.
In this case, their actions, and their own words are clear as to what their morale boost was to sacrifice themselves and take thousands with them.

I also didnt say they killed themselves FOR religion, but they sure as hell used the Islam to give them a nice morale boost -> martyrdom.

I dont agree ..they did it to further their agenda

So they yelled "Allah Ackbar", used mostly by luni's just before killing or dying for what they think is what Allah wants..to... further.. their agenda?????? Like its a random first thing that pops up?? Without meaning?
Cmon Stern...

 

[CptStern]

I read it, thats great, i wasnt questioning it, simply asking if there was more conclusive info.

and I was giving it to you

Mankinds hypocracy IS that they radicalise in one area, and make acceptions for themselves in other areas.
There are tons of religious nuts both christian, muslim and hindu falling for sexual lust (so its no surprise luni's fall for it aswell), or any other form of lust.

Rape, child abuse, animal sex etc, this all from within the circle of the most religious of people.

Most suicide terrorists, suicide bombers of whatever sort are not the kind of religious nutcases who walk around "dressed like a mullah or pope".
Witnesses always describe them as "regular chaps", and never expected this from those people.
Whether they seemed to fit into society, were party animals or calm background folks, they almost never fit the screaming stereotype many people have.

From the Japanese suicide squads to islamic suicide terrorists, they may have had thousands of reasons to hate or do what they are going to do but they need a morale boost.

you're basically saying the same thing I am ...but then you contradict what you yourself said here:

So they yelled "Allah Ackbar", used mostly by luni's just before killing or dying for what they think is what Allah wants..to... further.. their agenda?????? Like its a random first thing that pops up?? Without meaning?
Cmon Stern...

Whether its extreme nationalism, brainwashing and indoctrination or religion, it doesnt matter.
In this case, their actions, and their own words are clear as to what their morale boost was to sacrifice themselves and take thousands with them

if you're talking about the canadian incident you really cant make a judgement because no details behind their motivations have been revealed CSIS and the rcmp have kept a tight lid on information. If you're talking about Atta and the 9/11 terrorists then your evidence (the fact that they shouted "Allah Ackbar") is rather weak in comparison to mine (they went to strip joints and had non-muslim girlfriends)

 

[Ome_Vince]

I was refering to the 9/11 attacks.
My point simply is they used, in this case Islam, as their morale support for committing the act.

Are you seriously saying, that when they yelled "Allah Ackbar" before committing the ultimate sacrifice, it isnt a clear indicator they're using Islam as their morale boost??? :O :O

Before i go explaining anymore, i'm actually interested as to know exactly why you think they yell Allah Ackbar before committing history's largest terrorist act, and how you think its not linked to any Islamic morale boosting/indoctrination. (note, i'm not refering to reasons, i'm refering to morale/psychological state of their minds)..
I'm seriously interested...

 

[Solaris]

Are you seriously saying, that when they yelled "Allah Ackbar" before committing the ultimate sacrifice, it isnt a clear indicator they're using Islam as their morale boost??

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

 

[The Monkey]

if you're talking about the canadian incident you really cant make a judgement because no details behind their motivations have been revealed CSIS and the rcmp have kept a tight lid on information. If you're talking about Atta and the 9/11 terrorists then your evidence (the fact that they shouted "Allah Ackbar") is rather weak in comparison to mine (they went to strip joints and had non-muslim girlfriends)

Muslim men are allowed to have jewish and christian wives.

As far as I'm concern, it doesn't really matter if they used Islam as an excuse or if they really believed that they were doing God a favour or something, they've been caught now, and that's what's most important.

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

“There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes”

 

[CptStern]

I was refering to the 9/11 attacks.
My point simply is they used, in this case Islam, as their morale support for committing the act.

Are you seriously saying, that when they yelled "Allah Ackbar" before committing the ultimate sacrifice, it isnt a clear indicator they're using Islam as their morale boost??? :O :O

nice try but please stop twisting words and changing what was said ..it's clear what I meant and it's also clear what you meant ..you said they were religious fanatics and I said they werent (with evidence to back it up) ..now you're trying to change it to mean something else all together.

btw, a nice expresso before starting the day gives me a morale boost, so does taking a dump under the right conditions ...so saying that they used the term "Allah Ackbar" for a morale boost is pretty much a given but it wasnt what we were discussing

Before i go explaining anymore, i'm actually interested as to know exactly why you think they yell Allah Ackbar before committing history's largest terrorist act, and how you think its not linked to any Islamic morale boosting/indoctrination. (note, i'm not refering to reasons, i'm refering to morale/psychological state of their minds)..
I'm seriously interested...

who were they trying to indoctrinate seconds before they slammed into the side of a building?

and I cant give you an opinion because they're dead so I cant examine their psychological state of mind ...I'm surprised you'd even ask that ..specifically as I dont see how that relates to whether they were religious fanatics or not