CCTV Cameras will shout you out (now with added kids voices)

[NeptuneUK]

If we get an ultra right wing authoritarian government i'm joining the police!

 

[clarky003]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJTLL1UjvfU[/YOUTUBE]

If you think it's good your only looking at it on the surface, the reality of it is really something far less positive.

 

[Darkside55]

You know what that video taught me?

1. The use of cameras can follow me around and the police can surveil my movements. Well, while I certainly wouldn't appreciate them following me into the crapper or peeping in through my window while I'm doing my bedroom business, while I'm outside in the public I don't care what they do. They're watching me as I walk down the street to go shopping? Have at it. They're watching me pick up my mail from outside the house? Hope you like looking at a guy in his bathrobe come to the door and grab a few bills. Enjoy that, local PD.

2. "The keeping of records about airline passengers...biometric passports...gathers explicit data such as your nationality, fingerprints, the color of your eyes, and a high-resolution picture of your face. Information you would usually expect to be taken from suspected criminals." OR, ALTERNATIVELY, the kind of information present on every ID in the country. Would you like to know my nationality and my country of origin? How about my eye color and a picture of my face? Shall I just, I don't know, take out my driver's license for you? Just in case you can't see and record this information by simply LOOKING AT ME. My fingerprints? Go ahead. It wouldn't be the first time I've had to take fingerprints for something. It's not like it's incriminating data; it's identifying, not incriminating. Oh, please don't take my fingerprints Mr. Government, I'll feel like a CRIMINAL! ;(

3. Trusted computing, perhaps the only thing I would care about in here, simply because "trustworthy software" sounds more like "you can only use this software because it's from such-and-such manufacturer." Honestly if anyone raises any horns about "Big Brother," this should be the (only) one.

4. Finally, scanning my e-mail. What can I really say about this one? On the one hand, while I wouldn't necessarily want the government reading my mail, again I have nothing to hide. Now, you personally might feel that it's the greatest invasion of privacy if someone was monitoring your love e-letters to your significant other or if the eff bee eye was was keeping tabs of what pornos you've watched this week, and a part of me agrees. The other part of me says, "Get over it you prat, nobody gives a shit whether you watched some girl take double anal over Pornotube yesterday." If that stops real crimes, by all means, go for it.

You know what peoples' problem is, it's 1984. It's this thought that invasion of privacy is the worst thing in the world, and we'll have some kind of iron rule where everyone's monitored for every little thing, and they can't REALLY give you answers to why it's bad, it's just bad. "They're invading our privacy!"

"Do you have anything to be private about?"

"I just don't want them looking into my business."

"And if it stops business that's detrimental to society and isn't nearly as invasive as naysayers think?"

"Well...I just don't want them looking into my business!"

I'm sorry but it must be said, everyone in this thread who thinks this is a bad thing is nothing more than a paranoid "Big Brother" decrier who thinks the sky is falling and Western civilization as we know it is at an end by the nosy government. Get over it; you're only opposed to it because you read some bad stuff in a book and it's the trendy thing to do to rebel against the government.

 

[clarky003]

Perhaps it escapes you that we are all human including the people who control these systems, so they are very much subject to abuse. You don't need to write paragraphs about it, go read 1984.

 

[CptStern]

They don't know what they've gotten themselves into... "anti-social behaviour" reeks of 1984 anyway. If i see a camera, I'll smash it up for good measure.

smash one for me too

I cant believe some people agree with this sort of invasion of privacy ..wtf what's next? fashion police berating people for wearing the wrong clothes, being too fat/thin/tall/wrong race/unattractive etc ..etiquette nazis yelling at you in a restuarant for holding the fork the wrong way? loudspeakers berating you for missing the bowl in a public urinal ...sure these scenarios are rediculous but why stop at berating people on the street for misbehaving? why not shame people into conformity?


all hl2.net members in and around the cities affected should get together on a specified date and moon the camera, litter the area with cans of red bull/empty tubes of zit cream, talk with their mouths full, spit into flowerbeds and scream vulgarities at passerbys

 

[ZoFreX]

I didn't like that video much either. It completely failed to make any decent points about why these things are bad. I'm a fan of surveillance in theory, but the number of conflicts of interest that could pop-up... I'm sure you can think of plenty too.

The thing that got me about the BBC thing was mainly its uncanny resemblance to HL2... and of course it being about as disastrous PR-wise (c'mon, there are far more important things to do than tell people to pick up their litter) as this:

 

[Icarusintel]

**** me... are they serious!?

 

[Darkside55]

Perhaps it escapes you that we are all human including the people who control these systems, so they are very much subject to abuse. You don't need to write paragraphs about it, go read 1984.

You're presupposing abuse. There's no precedent for a system like this, no previous frame of reference to draw upon beside the Orwellian fantasy that everyone in this thread keeps pointing to. So rather than refute my argument, you've instead (quite humorously, from my point of view) directed me to a fictitious book about a dystopia that supposes the worst case scenario from public monitoring technology. Worst case scenarios are common in fiction; you will find that in the history of the real world, they are not quite so. I challenge you to actually argue me on points rather than point me to 1984; for example, give me a statement as to why YOU feel monitoring is bad, and we can go from there. Don't let a dead author make your argument for you.

Also, Stern, man...heh heh, I've gotta say, I'm sorry dude, but you are hilarious. Almost every "argument" I've seen from you has been some outrageous appeal to ridicule...I don't even know if that's the proper thing to call it, it's so crazy. The fashion police? Etiquette nazis? You're right, those scenarios ARE ridiculous. So much so that I fail to see anything but the slightest correlation between the argument at hand and what you're proposing. Honestly dude I've seen people argue the way you do, but I've never seen anyone do it better. I'd almost like to believe that you were being sarcastic, a parody of such people, but...

If I had the time right now I'd either draw or photoshop up a little comic panel that'd look something like this:

Clarky: "CCTV cameras! It's 1984! Nineteen Eighty-Four; don't take my word for it, Nineteen Eighty-Four! Orwell was (1984) right! (1984)"

Stern: "1984?! What's next? The FASHION POLICE?!"

Fashion Police Officer: "..."

Clarky and Stern: "D:"

 

[Terminator]

You know what peoples' problem is, it's 1984. It's this thought that invasion of privacy is the worst thing in the world, and we'll have some kind of iron rule where everyone's monitored for every little thing, and they can't REALLY give you answers to why it's bad, it's just bad. "They're invading our privacy!"

I've said it before, complete freedom is essential for humans, if you are under a strict law you are free to do whatever you want as long as it is lawful.......that is still control, you are controlled by what the government allows you to do and it is getting increasingly slimmer as things are deemed antisocial, what if things are deemed to be 'anti productive'? Basically the fear that people hold is the slippery slope into a control soceity.

You could say using the same principle that the african slaves were free, free to work on plantations under the watchful eye of the slave owner!
I'm pretty sure none of them were happy with that however.

EDIT: Oh and if you need an example, pre ww2 germany, the people went along with hitlers goals as they had no choice.
In the UK we are increasingly seeing choices being made for us by an ever increasingly seperated goverment system, not good.

Control systems allow the government to control aspects of life they couldn't normally, it all depends what they deem necc to 'dumb down' soceity, it gets even worse as protests become terrorism, the rest of the people go along with it and 'go quietly' just like in germany.....

 

[ríomhaire]

The voice sounds a bit stupid but I think that cameras in public streets are a good idea and I think that all video feed from public areas should be viewable to the public.

Edit:
Why the hell are people so bothered about cameras in a public street. Everyone can already see what the hell you're doing.

 

[<RJMC>]

Clarky: "CCTV cameras! It's 1984! Nineteen Eighty-Four; don't take my word for it, Nineteen Eighty-Four! Orwell was (1984) right! (1984)"

Stern: "1984?! What's next? The FASHION POLICE?!"

Fashion Police Officer: "..."

Clarky and Stern: "D:"

Fashion Police Officer:you are under arrest for not wearing the combo 5688Eink shirt whit painted jeans and improvised "mohawk",now boys use the tazers
Fashion Police Patrol:*bzzzzz*
*falls inconcient*

 

[Solaris]

I didn't like that video much either. It completely failed to make any decent points about why these things are bad. I'm a fan of surveillance in theory, but the number of conflicts of interest that could pop-up... I'm sure you can think of plenty too.

The thing that got me about the BBC thing was mainly its uncanny resemblance to HL2... and of course it being about as disastrous PR-wise (c'mon, there are far more important things to do than tell people to pick up their litter) as this:

I saw that in London last time I went in, I was literally gob smacked.

People need to stand up to the big brother state that is emerging, privacy is a right everyones entitled to. If you're being watched by authority you are not free.

 

[CptStern]

Also, Stern, man...heh heh, I've gotta say, I'm sorry dude, but you are hilarious. Almost every "argument" I've seen from you has been some outrageous appeal to ridicule...I don't even know if that's the proper thing to call it, it's so crazy. The fashion police? Etiquette nazis? You're right, those scenarios ARE ridiculous. So much so that I fail to see anything but the slightest correlation between the argument at hand and what you're proposing. Honestly dude I've seen people argue the way you do, but I've never seen anyone do it better. I'd almost like to believe that you were being sarcastic, a parody of such people, but...

i did say it was rediculous, and rediculing something so outrageously does have an effect: ..it illustrates a point (most effectively I might add) that what they are proposing could be extended to other forms of policing social ills. From picking your nose to scratching your ass in public ..give an inch and they might be disposed to take a mile ..it's not what they will do but what they can do ..personal freedoms are not a revolving door, you cant stride both sides of the fence without losing something along the way



and yes I pride myself in my ability to redicule ..it often masks a deeper meaning that said otherwise would go unnoticed

 

[ZoFreX]

I think we're on a slippery slope but cctv isn't it. Seeing as someone else has already raised the comparison I feel safe to point out that in pre ww2 germany they... increased police powers and used scapegoats to do so (see: child pornography cited for increased internet monitoring, see: police powers increasing and accountability decreasing with the excuse of terrorism). What really gets me is the efforts they make daily to make me scared. I don't want to be scared!

More thread derailment: Darkside, you remind me of goonigoo (http://www.biggercheese.com/index.php).

Almost back on topicness: Do those who have nothing to hide really have nothing to fear? What if an over-protective father sees you dating his daughter on cctv? What if your mother sees you buying the morning-after pill (and you're a chick. obviously.). The problem with monitoring is that it's done by people, who may well have personal connections or vested interests which would mean you wouldn't want them to see certain things. I'm 100% ok with CCTV that isn't live monitored and is only ever played back if an incident occurs and evidence is needed, but live monitored CCTV, outside of shops/banks/etc makes me shudder.

And let's face it, if they're using the public offences act to arrest people wearing anti-Blair tshirts, do you really trust them not to abuse being able to watch your every move on the street?

 

[Darkside55]

I've said it before, complete freedom is essential for humans, if you are under a strict law you are free to do whatever you want as long as it is lawful.......that is still control, you are controlled by what the government allows you to do and it is getting increasingly slimmer as things are deemed antisocial, what if things are deemed to be 'anti productive'? Basically the fear that people hold is the slippery slope into a control soceity.

You can never have, and you would really never want, complete freedom. You might think you do (and I would like to ask why you think so), but you wouldn't.

Complete freedom means I'm free to rob a bank, walk out nonchalantly, slap every old lady I see along the street, then kick your dog. Nobody can do anything about it because I'm free to do whatever I want. Perhaps in a perfect world were man was a harmonious and morally upstanding being who did no harm, but in today's society can you imagine the ramifications of a completely free society? We'd destroy ourselves in a month.

Whereas with the law at least you have guidelines. You're free to stop at the bank (don't rob it), you're free to greet old ladies (don't slap them), and I can pet your dog (don't kick it). And as most people wouldn't consider doing any of those things normally I'd say that "being free with the exception of laws" is a pretty good situation.

You could say using the same principle that the african slaves were free, free to work on plantations under the watchful eye of the slave owner!
I'm pretty sure none of them were happy with that however.

That's a bit of wordplay. Back then it was legal to own slaves and therefore no laws were being broken...but the slaves themselves weren't free; rather, whites were free to own slaves. So you're partially right but you have to look at it from a certain angle.

Control systems allow the government to control aspects of life they couldn't normally, it all depends what they deem necc to 'dumb down' soceity, it gets even worse as protests become terrorism, the rest of the people go along with it and 'go quietly' just like in germany.....

Government attempts to control what it feels it needs to control. Admittedly everything runs smoother in a well-oiled machine; a few displaced cogs muck everything up. Therefore the government does what it can to set things right. Unfortunately most people don't like that and they protest, which leads to more control. It's both a vicious cycle and the "grasping hand"; the tighter you hold something the more it squeezes out.

In this particular case however I really think it's for the benefit of people. Again, a lot of people find it invasive and don't want anything to do with it, a lot of people think that it'll turn into a "slippery slope," but really we cannot say for certain. This is real life versus fiction, and all we have to go on right now is fiction. Closer to home than anything else we're on a Half-Life 2 fansite discussing the possibility of a monitored, oppressed society.

More thread derailment: Darkside, you remind me of goonigoo (http://www.biggercheese.com/index.php).

I've seen only one comic from that site before, and I don't really know what the comic's about other than it has Batman in it, and that automatically makes it good in my eyes. So I'm going to take that as a compliment.

Almost back on topicness: Do those who have nothing to hide really have nothing to fear? What if an over-protective father sees you dating his daughter on cctv? What if your mother sees you buying the morning-after pill (and you're a chick. obviously.). The problem with monitoring is that it's done by people, who may well have personal connections or vested interests which would mean you wouldn't want them to see certain things. I'm 100% ok with CCTV that isn't live monitored and is only ever played back if an incident occurs and evidence is needed, but live monitored CCTV, outside of shops/banks/etc makes me shudder.

And let's face it, if they're using the public offences act to arrest people wearing anti-Blair tshirts, do you really trust them not to abuse being able to watch your every move on the street?

We just have to guard against abuse of the system. See right now we have this dichotomy, it's like, "us and them," the regular people and the government. If we both worked at it together then this could be an extremely helpful thing. Right now everyone sees it as, "the government is trying to invade our privacy." They're wrong anyway, but working with government and setting laws, rules and regulations about how the system would be used.

And if they really are arresting people wearing anti-Blair shirts (not doubting you, I've just never heard about this), then that's just something that's going to have to be looked into, isn't it?

 

[ZoFreX]

Yes. The "us and them" mentality just stems from the irritating lack of accountability of police forces these days (well documented in the media, e.g. speeding, shooting Brazilians then brazenly lying about it, arresting that guy who works for the Guardian). And yes, it was a compliment, I love that comic and you seem to have a similar style to goon

 

[<RJMC>]

 

[Krynn72]

If this kind of shit ever reaches the US im ****ing moving. Probably to Canada.

 

[repiV]

The legacy of Blair strikes again.

On a sidenote: does anyone else see the irony in Solaris crusading against one Big Brother state whilst believing religiously in another?

 

[Beerdude26]

Hahaha RJMC lol


BTW Belgium recently started a bus-police service, because bus farers and bus drivers were getting the shit kicked out of them. :| Also there is now live camera recording in pretty much every bus, which is awesome, because there really were people who just blatantly picked out fights on the bus, hit the driver etc

 

[Solaris]

The legacy of Blair strikes again.

On a sidenote: does anyone else see the irony in Solaris crusading against one Big Brother state whilst believing religiously in another?

I don't.

Freedom of the individual in paramount in my political beliefs.

 

[repiV]

I don't.

Freedom of the individual in paramount in my political beliefs.

You cannot possibly have freedom of the individual without the freedom to own property, start a business, trade freely or be self-reliant.

Again, you contradict yourself...

 

[Solaris]

You cannot possibly have freedom of the individual without the freedom to own property, start a business, trade freely or be self-reliant.

Again, you contradict yourself...

Private property isn't a right, it's a plague on society.

 

[repiV]

Private property isn't a right, it's a plague on society.

Well, yes, it is a right, actually. It's a right that dates back to the time we learned how to build camps, which remains one of the most fundamental rights of every free society on earth.
You can't just redefine the world and the meaning of freedom to support your twisted, totalitarian views.

 

[Solaris]

Well, yes, it is a right, actually. It's a right that dates back to the time we learned how to build camps, which remains one of the most fundamental rights of every free society on earth.
You can't just redefine the world and the meaning of freedom to support your twisted, totalitarian views.

Watch me.

lol.

-Solaris signing out for a week, off to ireland.

 

[repiV]

Watch me.

lol.

-Solaris signing out for a week, off to ireland.

Ok then.

 

[<RJMC>]

Private property isn't a right, it's a plague on society.

so that measn if people you dont know invade your house them is ok them?weee

*me prepares to invade solaris house whit demoliton hammers and a bulldozzer*

 

[kirovman]

I think that here in the UK we have State Property in the guise of private property.

We buy our houses here, which we pay council tax on (not to mention stamp duty and all the other inconveniences), and then when we die the government comes and takes 40% over a certain tax bracket.
It's equivalent to the government owning the property, and leasing it to you.


Solaris, you are John Reid.

-- I used to be a communist but now I'm Big Brother lol

 

[Pulse]

What a retarded concept.

If anything its going to give a further incentive to chavs and yobs alike to taunt the new camera systems and cause more havoc, in order to get a response out of them. Besides, someone telling to pick up a wrapper I just dropped through a child's voice isn't going to persuade me to undo my previous actions, let alone feel guilty for them.

 

[function9]

This is a ticket to 1984, most people can't of read it because nobody really seems to give a crap.

ever heard of the RFID chip? been developed for the very purpose of keeping track of workers and suspected criminals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID

They've had them for pets for a while. And about a year or so ago I heard on the radio they were trying to push these chips for implanting into newborn children. I prefer the barcodes on the back of the neck myself.

 

[Sulkdodds]

-Solaris signing out for a week, off to ireland.

Next week:

IRISH TROUBLES FLARE AGAIN - CAR BOMBING IN ARMARGH
Teenage kid "dissed our mam" says captured IRA soldier


But seriously, while this is vaguely crazy, the actual idea of having cameras out on a public street is a good one and not one I find morally objectionable.

Everybody can see you already. It is a public place. What you do is subject to public scrutiny. The only thing the cameras are doing is substituting a policeman watching with interest from the sidelines as you wank in public - and making it so that authorities can just check the video instead of having to interview a load of witnesses, who probaby don't want to talk at length about your dick. Hell, they might be unreliable because it was so hard to see (ZING!).

That the police can more easily find evidence on which to prosecute offences in public places isn't something very protest-worthy, I think. The actual barking of orders, meanwhile, is extremely weird, and I can't help thinking it's counter-productive as well as crazy.

Seems to me we should all be worrying about the actual law - about whether it's moral that wanking in public (see above) is illegal!

Also I've heard it said/seen it written many times and it's true in my experience: most cameras in the UK are actually on private property, facing inwards.

.wtf what's next?

Karma police.

 

[15357]

I don't see the problem with this.


We have public CCTV cameras (althugh they take a shitload of manpower) in Seoul and other bigger cities. If you're about to get raped, you press the yellow button right beneath it, and a patrol car will come in a minute to 3. If you see a burglar, you press the button, and the men in black will come, batons/pool cues and handcuffs ready. See spies? Press the button! All for a more stable, safe, and better society.



Numbers approved.

 

[<RJMC>]

I don't see the problem with this.


We have public CCTV cameras (althugh they take a shitload of manpower) in Seoul and other bigger cities. If you're about to get raped, you press the yellow button right beneath it, and a patrol car will come in a minute to 3. If you see a burglar, you press the button, and the men in black will come, batons/pool cues and handcuffs ready. See spies? Press the button! All for a more stable, safe, and better society.



Numbers approved.

but those hav sounds?

anyway you are just like solaris but whit the other side

 

[ZoFreX]

I like the sound of those push-button cameras!

Altho in this country they'd be abused constantly

 

[Alig]

Thats a great idea, no one wants to be shamed in public so calling out their name or yelling at them is great, I would kill to be the one who gets to do the yelling.
I had the same idea with speeding. Theres a tunnel where all the radio stations are rebroadcast and the tunnel operating room sometimes makes announcements, telling people to stop speeding over the radio would be far more effective than speed cameras.

It's just a new way of getting people to obey the law and stop being tools.

It's a pretty bad idea actually. If these people are prepared to drop rubbish in the street or act anti-social, then they will do it just for a laugh. Whats the camera going to do? tell them off? ....woah!.

Also, when i'm driving on our motorways i do 25mph over the speed limit, and the last thing on my mind is what 'someone' else thinks of me speeding (unless it's a cop), so shouting over the radio would be a pointless thing to do as i imagine many people don't care what the person next to them 'thinks' of them.

 

[Darkside55]

That's why they need to get officers out there to give people a little non-verbal reinforcement. The Combine had it right, y'know. You don't want to pick up that can?

Thwack! Bzzt!

NOW do you want to pick up that can? Of course you do.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think they would have better results with Mister Motivator.

 

[Pulse]

I think they would have better results with Mister Motivator.

PICK UP! PICK UP! PICK UP THAT CAN!

 

[ríomhaire]

I don't see the problem with this.


We have public CCTV cameras (althugh they take a shitload of manpower) in Seoul and other bigger cities. If you're about to get raped, you press the yellow button right beneath it, and a patrol car will come in a minute to 3. If you see a burglar, you press the button, and the men in black will come, batons/pool cues and handcuffs ready. See spies? Press the button! All for a more stable, safe, and better society.



Numbers approved.

I fully endorse this product and/or event.

 

[Remus]

The Combine had it right, y'know. You don't want to pick up that can?

Thwack! Bzzt!

NOW do you want to pick up that can? Of course you do.

Nope I'm fine thank you *pulls out Egon Gun* Bzeeeeeooooooww!!
What can?