Che Guevara gets 'toppled' in... Caracas?

[Nemesis6]

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - A glass monument to revolutionary icon Ernesto "Che" Guevara was shot up and destroyed less than two weeks after it was unveiled by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's government.

Images of the 8-foot-tall glass plate bearing Guevara's image, now toppled and shattered, were shown Friday on state television, which said the entire country "repudiated" the vandalism.

The monument on an Andean mountain highway near the city of Merida was unveiled Oct. 8 by Vice President Jorge Rodriguez and Cuba's ambassador to Venezuela to mark the 40th anniversary of Guevara's death.

Chavez venerates Guevara as a model socialist for all Venezuelans. He named a state-funded adult education program "Mission Che Guevara," and murals of the iconic revolutionary have become a common sight in Venezuela.

Police said they had yet to identify those responsible. The Venezuelan newspaper El Nacional published a copy of what it said was a flier found by the monument signed by the previously unknown "Paramo Patriotic Front."

"We don't want any monument to Che, he isn't an example for our children," the flier read. It called Guevara a "cold-blooded killer" and said the government should raise a monument in Chavez's hometown of Sabaneta, in the nearby lowland plains, if it wants to commemorate the Argentine-born revolutionary.

The local mayor, Jesus Maria Espinoza, suggested the vandals came from elsewhere.

"We can't tolerate people from outside ... damaging something that was unveiled with so much happiness, with so much enthusiasm that day," Espinoza told state television.

The 1.5-inch-thick stele was erected near the top of El Aguila Peak, a popular tourist spot and one of the highest points in Venezuela at 13,143 feet above sea level.

Guevara visited this spot in 1952 during his travels through South America, which he recorded in his diary, before joining the Cuban revolutionary struggle led by Fidel Castro.

And here Che is, once again, broken - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SCGAA80&show_article=1&image=large

 

[Ennui]

Hasta la victoria siempre.

 

[Raziaar]

Maybe glass was a bad material?

EDIT: Wait, it's not a statue? Lame.

 

[Nemesis6]

Hasta la caida siempre.

Fixed, kind of.

 

[Flyingdebris]

F*** Yeah

 

[kirovman]

This is Venezula's 9/11.

 

[<RJMC>]

one thing to note

he was not a important figure in the history of the country

so why that was placed there? well because since castro is the big papa we have to worship theyr deities

it wouldnt have been placed in the first place

 

[kirovman]

omg you're back!

 

[The Monkey]

RJMC IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!1111one

 

[<RJMC>]

I just wanted to note that out

check the history of my coutry that you would see that he wasnt involved in anything important

but off course soon we will have t worship him

 

[mortiz-Redux]

Che Guevara was a rugby player, didn't know that until the Argentina - France match yesterday.

 

[Solaris]

Che was a hero and this act of vandalism is a disgrace,

 

[The Monkey]

Che was a brutal murderer who took pleasure in executing people personally. He was also a big supporter of Stalin.

Once more I was able to convince myself how criminal the capitalistic octopuses are. On a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin, I swore not to rest before these capitalistic octopuses are destroyed.

- Ernesto "Che" Guevara

 

[kirovman]

And now octopi are an endangered species. Monster.

 

[Solaris]

Che was a brutal murderer who took pleasure in executing people personally. He was also a big supporter of Stalin.

- Ernesto "Che" Guevara

That's bullshit. Also with the quote, how was he to know how evil a man Stalin was? No-one knew till a long time after he died about the death camps and shit.

 

[Mr Stabby]

It was well known that Lenin and Stalin were brutal tyrants before the second world war.

 

[Solaris]

It was well known that Lenin and Stalin were brutal tyrants before the second world war.

Lenin absolutely was not.

 

[The Monkey]

That's bullshit. Also with the quote, how was he to know how evil a man Stalin was? No-one knew till a long time after he died about the death camps and shit.

The true extent of his terror was not known, but it was clear to everybody in 1953 (when Che made that statement), that he was responsible for the deaths of many innocent lives.

Lenin absolutely was not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin's_Hanging_Order

 

[Solaris]

The true extent of his terror was not known, but it was clear to everybody in 1953 (when Che made that statement), that he was responsible for the deaths of many innocent lives.

I disagree, with all the propaganda it would have been hard to find out whats the truth. All this rubbish being said about Lenin is typical propaganda and so it would have been easy to mistake the stuff about Stalin to be the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin's_Hanging_Order

I know some people have doubted the authenticity of that document, but even if it is true, I believe we can explain without concluding that Lenin was a monster.

I'm studying this for my coursework atm in history, so I know a fair bit about the context of the order. At the time, millions of people in the towns were starving to death, the country was in chaos and some well off peasants refused to give their grain to the state in return for the standard recompense, instead they demanded more for a larger profit. These people were already better off than 95% of russians, and it is no exaggeration to say that these upper class peasants were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands during the famine, their co-operation would have alleviated it.

Lenin was faced with an extremely difficult decision and this was typical of a lot of the crisis's he faced. Millions of lives were directly at stake, and if the revolution failed the whole world could be condemned under capitalism for a lot longer leading to more deaths and misery. Sadly, half measures were no longer an option, Lenins heroic determination meant he had to set an example. So he had a hundred of them hanged in the hope that others would not follow their example and the starving Russian children could be fed.

It was a horrible thing, but they were horrible circumstances. As spock said: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[15357]

Bah, he was a commie, and an evil one at that. We should all rejoice.



Also, the entire "Robin Hood" shit that Lenin might have done doesn't make him a great guy. Sure, the peasants weren't very keen on giving up their food (although, WTH are they gonna eat?) and maybe you could say that they were bad, but massacring them is worse.

 

[<RJMC>]

Che was a hero and this act of vandalism is a disgrace,

che guevara also helped guerrillas like the FARC and they dont seen to be doing good things

but off course if is for the red flags it dont matter which blood is split

and c'mon worship stalin is in your obligations so stop saying lies

 

[Mr Stabby]

Lenin absolutely was not.

Yes he was, he was in charge of the brutal policy of War communism, he dismissed the results of the democratic elections, because he didn't do well in them, and initiated the red terror

 

[Solaris]

Yes he was, he was in charge of the brutal policy of War communism, he dismissed the results of the democratic elections, because he didn't do well in them, and initiated the red terror

Yes, they are all defensible in the context I explained in the above post.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I disagree, with all the propaganda it would have been hard to find out whats the truth. All this rubbish being said about Lenin is typical propaganda and so it would have been easy to mistake the stuff about Stalin to be the same.

I know some people have doubted the authenticity of that document, but even if it is true, I believe we can explain without concluding that Lenin was a monster.

I'm studying this for my coursework atm in history, so I know a fair bit about the context of the order. At the time, millions of people in the towns were starving to death, the country was in chaos and some well off peasants refused to give their grain to the state in return for the standard recompense, instead they demanded more for a larger profit. These people were already better off than 95% of russians, and it is no exaggeration to say that these upper class peasants were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands during the famine, their co-operation would have alleviated it.

Lenin was faced with an extremely difficult decision and this was typical of a lot of the crisis's he faced. Millions of lives were directly at stake, and if the revolution failed the whole world could be condemned under capitalism for a lot longer leading to more deaths and misery. Sadly, half measures were no longer an option, Lenins heroic determination meant he had to set an example. So he had a hundred of them hanged in the hope that others would not follow their example and the starving Russian children could be fed.

It was a horrible thing, but they were horrible circumstances. As spock said: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

The grain seizures were to supply the Red Army, not the peasants, many peasants died in a famine caused by the grain seizures. The Kulaks started off no better than any other peasants, they just worked harder and were better farmers, so they were able to improve there standard of living through hard work, so Lenin had them murdered.

 

[Solaris]

The grain seizures were to supply the Red Army, not the peasants, many peasants died in a famine caused by the grain seizures. The Kulaks started off no better than any other peasants, they just worked harder and were better farmers, so they were able to improve there standard of living through hard work, so Lenin had them murdered.

Yes you're right, a large portion of the grain did go to the army to protect the country from the invading armies.
The Kulaks worked no harder than the ordinary peasants they just owned more land and inherited more wealth, they were a higher class.

 

[Gunner]

Yes, they are all defensible in the context I explained in the above post.

Give it up man, nobody buys this act anymore.

 

[<RJMC>]

Yes, they are all defensible in the context I explained in the above post.

but still you put your hand in your heart and stares whit happines at the succes

 

[Solaris]

Give it up man, nobody buys this act anymore.

I do, I believe what I'm saying.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Yes you're right, a large portion of the grain did go to the army to protect the country from the invading armies.
The Kulaks worked no harder than the ordinary peasants they just owned more land and inherited more wealth, they were a higher class.

They were fighting a civil war, almost all seized grain went towards the red army some went to the cities (only to appease rebellion), none to the peasants. All land was owned by the aristocracy until the February revolution, then the provisional government assigned peasants equal shares of land, all farmers started as serfs.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Yes, they are all defensible in the context I explained in the above post.

You may think war communism was OK, as you believe forced collectivization is a good thing, why is overriding democracy justified, democracy a bad thing? Why is the Cheka justified, killing anyone who disagrees.

 

[Tagaziel]

Yes, they are all defensible in the context I explained in the above post.

Nazism is also defensible in appropriate contexts. As is the Holocaust.

Just shut up and stop making a fool out of yourself.

 

[Solaris]

You may think war communism was OK, as you believe forced collectivization is a good thing, why is overriding democracy justified, democracy a bad thing? Why is the Cheka justified, killing anyone who disagrees.

They didn't kill 'anyone who disagreed'. They fought counter revolutionaries.

Grizzly, **** off. The holocaust cannot be justified no matter how much you tell me about the context it happened it.

The fact is, pre-revolution Russians existed in a state of servitude and poverty. Their lives were empty of joy and they had no chance to better themselves the vast majority couldn't even read.

Lenin tried to change this, he tried to make Russia a better place to live, the only people he cared about were ordinary Russians. Anybody who tried to stop the revolution was therefore trying to reduce Russians back into servitude and condemn hundreds of millions of people to lives that were not living. Hence, anybody who tried to do that was put against a wall and shot. It was brutal and inhumane but nothing else was feasible.

 

[Mr Stabby]

They didn't kill 'anyone who disagreed'. They fought counter revolutionaries.

Counter revolutionary is a euphemism for dissent, the fact is free societies don't have secret police.

The fact is, pre-revolution Russians existed in a state of servitude and poverty. Their lives were empty of joy and they had no chance to better themselves the vast majority couldn't even read.

Russia was on the road to a constitutional democracy before the October revolution, the whole of Russia and eastern Europe would have been a lot better off had the October revolution never happened

Lenin tried to change this, he tried to make Russia a better place to live, the only people he cared about were ordinary Russians. Anybody who tried to stop the revolution was therefore trying to reduce Russians back into servitude and condemn hundreds of millions of people to lives that were not living. Hence, anybody who tried to do that was put against a wall and shot. It was brutal and inhumane but nothing else was feasible.

Lenin tried to obtain absolute power. The majority of Russians were not in favour of the Bolsheviks, thats why they didn't win in the elections, Russia would have been a democracy without the Bolsheviks. Learn Russian history please.

 

[lePobz]

Its a bit of a lame monument anyway. Must have cost all of 10 quid. Anyway, it looks like it blew down in a gentle breeze.

 

[Flyingdebris]

Its well documented that Che either took part in or signed off on thousands of executions for people with "counterrevolutionary ideals" and that he took a great deal of satisfaction in that. A good number were little more than kids.

He was little more than a butcher. Its because of that 1 stupid photo and some fanboy reporters back in the 60s, in conjunction with The communist party elevating him to martyr status that you end up with his modern day hero status.

 

[kirovman]

It's also funny how there's a huge (capitalist) industry built around printing off posters of Che.

 

[PvtRyan]

It's also funny how there's a huge (capitalist) industry built around printing off posters of Che.

You just blew the perfect chance to use the word "irony" in the proper way, and that's terrible kirov. You just blew it.

That isn't funny or unfortunate, it's just plain IRONIC!

 

[Nemesis6]

They didn't kill 'anyone who disagreed'. They fought counter revolutionaries.

Rationalizing genocide with logic identical to the supporters of Stalin. Nice.

 

[kirovman]

You just blew the perfect chance to use the word "irony" in the proper way, and that's terrible kirov. You just blew it.

That isn't funny or unfortunate, it's just plain IRONIC!

Things that are ironic do not need to be spelled out as being such. Pointing out irony completely ruins the irony of the situation.

And that's the delicious irony of it.

 

[Gray Fox]

Rationalizing genocide with logic identical to the supporters of Stalin. Nice.

It's not genocide by any means and it's the same logic used by anyone who deems it rightful to protect oneself from those who would hard him.