Che Guevara gets 'toppled' in... Caracas?

[Nemesis6]

Genocide:

the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Protect oneself from... the people who disagree with you by... you know, shooting them in the back of the head and torturing them. Especially the young boys - He liked torturing them specifically for some reason.

 

[CptStern]

yes let's condemn torture ...unilatterally anything less would be ..hypocritical /waves at Nemesis


..btw why is simple vandalism newsworthy?

 

[Gray Fox]

He fought and killed people who actively fought and wanted to kill him with guns. Now how or why you think that denifnition of genocide applies to him is beyond me.
As far as him torturing young boy's you'll have to back that up with some evidence.

 

[Solaris]

Shit, so if people break into my house and try to kill me, and I kill them in defense. I can be tried for warcrimes and crimes against humanity?

shit.

 

[The Monkey]

Stalin was also killing in self-defence, according to himself.

 

[CptStern]

as is america in iraq ..."teh terrorwrists are gonna rape your babies america!!!111"

 

[The Monkey]

Exactly.

My point is, claims of self-defence is hardly enough cause to go around killing people as you wish, is it?

 

[CptStern]

people can claim whatever the hell they want, it doesnt justify anything ..however directly defending ones self is not the same as defending one's ideology as everyone here seems to be implying

 

[The Monkey]

Che executed people within his organisation that he saw as counter-revolutionaries. Those executions could hardly be justified as a defence of his own person.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not saying he is justified ..in fact I havent given my opinion whatsoever on anything except Nemesis' perpetual hypocrisy

 

[Solaris]

What a shit thread this has turned into.

Godwins law should have been envoked.

 

[kirovman]

What a shit thread this has turned into.

That's what Hitler would have said.

Godwins law should have been envoked.

 

[Gray Fox]

Stalin was also killing in self-defence, according to himself.

Most people say they kill in self defense does that mean that every single one of them is lying just because Stalin said the same.

 

[Mr Stabby]

What has killing 'counter revolutionaries' got to do with self-defence?

'Counter revolutionary' is political spin, it's a term that encompasses anyone opposed to the 'Marxist revolution'. Killing people for opposing a political ideology is not self-defence.

 

[Gray Fox]

What has killing 'counter revolutionaries' got to do with self-defense?

'Counter revolutionary' is political spin, it's a term that encompasses anyone opposed to the 'Marxist revolution'. Killing people for opposing a political ideology is not self-defense.

He didn't kill the counter-revolutionaries because they disagreed with him, he killed them because they were actively trying to kill him, with the aid of the CIA I might add.

 

[Mr Stabby]

He didn't kill the counter-revolutionaries because they disagreed with him, he killed them because they were actively trying to kill him, with the aid of the CIA I might add.

Yes he did, not all the 'counter revolutionaries' were CIA backed agents or military juntas, anyone who was suspected of disagreeing with the 'revolution' was liable to be considered a 'counter revolutionary'.

 

[Gray Fox]

Yes he did, not all the 'counter revolutionaries' were CIA backed agents or military juntas, anyone who was suspected of disagreeing with the 'revolution' was liable to be considered a 'counter revolutionary'.

And those weren't killed, only the ones that actively fought him.

 

[Mr Stabby]

He's responsible for the executions of dozens of people, one example is the execution of former officers in the Cuban army, who posed no direct threat to him or Castro at all, other than the fact they were not communists.

 

[Gray Fox]

He's responsible for the executions of dozens of people, one example is the execution of former officers in the Cuban army, who posed no direct threat to him or Castro at all, other than the fact they were not communists.

You mean the army he fought against?
The army that served a repressive dictatorship?
You mean like the nurnburg trials, where nazi officers were trailed and sentenced to death by the allies?

 

[Mr Stabby]

You mean the army he fought against?
The army that served a repressive dictatorship?
You mean like the nurnburg trials, where nazi officers were trailed and sentenced to death by the allies?

No, surrendered POWs, like POWs that it is illegal to kill under international law. Very few if any Wehrmacht officers saw trial at Nuremburg, only those directly implicated in mass executions, not that any killed by Che got trials.

There are numerous sources that suggest even 14 year old children were among those executed at La Cabana fortress.

 

[Gray Fox]

No, surrendered POWs, like POWs that it is illegal to kill under international law. Very few if any Wehrmacht officers saw trial at Nuremburg, only those directly implicated in mass executions, not that any killed by Che got trials.

There are numerous sources that suggest even 14 year old children were among those executed at La Cabana fortress.

So your saying that Che Gueverra committed genocide by executing people who were responsible for the oppression and killing of thousands, basically the same thing the Nuremberg trials did. Who tried to kill him.
And why don't you post any of those numerous resources that claim Che killed 14 year olds.

 

[Nemesis6]

All I can say is that if someone chooses to respond with evidence on that last request, brace yourself.

 

[Ennui]

Not caida.

 

[Absinthe]

Che was a ruthless, pompus shit that executed hundreds of people (including women and children) under a broken legal system. He failed miserably at maintaining the economy and industry of Cuba. His combat heroism was little more than bribery. He was a failure on almost every level that constantly found himself in the right place at the right time until his death.

He was a martyr of the most hollow kind, and it is a ****ing tragedy that generations of goons have been duped into revering him like a revolutionary saint. But hey, at least a good few fat capitalists saw the profit in milking such idiocy with their t-shirts and hats. He's probably rolling in his grave.

Let his statue topple.

 

[Mr Stabby]

So your saying that Che Gueverra committed genocide by executing people who were responsible for the oppression and killing of thousands, basically the same thing the Nuremberg trials did. Who tried to kill him.
And why don't you post any of those numerous resources that claim Che killed 14 year olds.

Not genocide, but unlawful killings an outright murder yes. No that's not what the Nuremberg trails did, the Nuremberg trials charged those directly guilty of crimes with the appropriate punishment. Che had people executed without any form of trial, most not guilty of any crime (except not support la revolution of course).

The sources are in history books but from Google I've found:

The first case on which I worked was that of Ariel Lima, a former revolutionary who had gone to the government side. His fate was sealed. He was dressed in prison uniform. I saw him handcuffed with his teeth chattering. According to the Law of the Guerrillas the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles. The right of Habeas Corpus had been suspended.

source

EVELIO G. GIL DIEZ CABEZAS. AGE 17.

04-12-59, LA CABA?A FORTRESS, HAVANA. EXECUTED BY FIRING SQUAD.

Not 14, but here is a 17 year old.

there were about eight hundred prisoners in a space fit for no more than three hundred: former Batista military and police personnel, some journalists, a few businessmen and merchants. The revolutionary tribunal was made of militiamen. Che Guevara presided over the appellate court. He never overturned a sentence. I would visit those on death row at the galera de la muerte. A rumor went around that I hypnotized prisoners because many remained calm, so Che ordered that I be present at the executions.

source

In January 1957, as his diary from the Sierra Maestra indicates, Guevara shot Eutimio Guerra because he suspected him of passing on information: ?I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain.... His belongings were now mine.? Later he shot Aristidio, a peasant who expressed the desire to leave whenever the rebels moved on.

source

http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm , this website briefly mentions Che killing a 14 year old, but gives no detail nor any sign of proof.

There is more on the net, if you look, most articles list a credible historian as their sources.

 

[Gray Fox]

Not genocide, but unlawful killings an outright murder yes. No that's not what the Nuremberg trails did, the Nuremberg trials charged those directly guilty of crimes with the appropriate punishment. Che had people executed without any form of trial, most not guilty of any crime (except not support la revolution of course).

Why were they unlawful killings? Because he had a different ideology then you? I haven't see any evidence they were any more unlawful then the Nuremberg trials. It's just you claiming they were.

And none of those site you posted count as reliable, they can either be easily replicated or are rightwing. It's like me quoting the PANC in defense of bush. it's basically their word against dozens of other sites who say the opposite. And even if they were true, it still wouldn't be anything near genocide. certainly nothing worse then most people we count as heroes or idols did in times of war.

 

[Nemesis6]

yes let's condemn torture ...unilatterally anything less would be ..hypocritical /waves at Nemesis


..btw why is simple vandalism newsworthy?

Looks like someone can't keep on topic. Much less address the issue. Anyway, that was your response: An article from 7 years ago that describes something that happened over ten years ago. There's a difference: Israel has admitted to its mistakes and recognized them, Che has not, and I doubt he would if he had lived to ponder them in jail. Plus, he has been idolized, and his "mistakes" swept under the carpet because he was a "revolutionary", and now we have people like Gray Fox acting out the "useful idiot"(Thank you for that one, Lenin) role for him all over the globe. Israel doesn't seem to be in the same position now does it? You can draw parallels all you want, it's not gonna change the fact that Israel cannot be compared to Che the murderer -- Well, unless you're a tart, in which case go for it.

 

[Absinthe]

Che executed people without trial. What do you not get? Is this acceptable to you? Does it not bother you in the least that many of the people executed under him were mere suspects? Or how about how, in the cases where people were put on trial, Mr. Guevara generally had already decided if a suspect was guilty or not before the sham show went under way and thought it best to simply hasten such proceedings? Hence, broken legal system?

Get off your dream boat. This was not the same as the Nuremburg trials. You're dressing up an ideological purge as self-defense, accusing every person who died at his hands of being bloodsucking oppressors when there was no credible process in place to actually allow such a confident statement when it came to many of them. Che was a part of the needless killings that took place in the name of stamping out "counter-revolutionaries" just like so many others were. But wait, he had a glass monument on a hill. I guess that makes him ****ing special, right?

I seriously wonder how such a washed-up pissant got to his lofty status.

 

[Dog--]

Redirect all hate to Nemesis6!

Behold!

I'm kidding... *backs away slowly*

 

[Solaris]

Che executed people without trial. What do you not get? Is this acceptable to you? Does it not bother you in the least that many of the people executed under him were mere suspects? Or how about how, in the cases where people were put on trial, Mr. Guevara generally had already decided if a suspect was guilty or not before the sham show went under way and thought it best to simply hasten such proceedings? Hence, broken legal system?

Get off your dream boat. This was not the same as the Nuremburg trials. You're dressing up an ideological purge as self-defense, accusing every person who died at his hands of being bloodsucking oppressors when there was no credible process in place to actually allow such a confident statement when it came to many of them. Che was a part of the needless killings that took place in the name of stamping out "counter-revolutionaries" just like so many others were. But wait, he had a glass monument on a hill. I guess that makes him ****ing special, right?

I seriously wonder how such a washed-up pissant got to his lofty status.

Of course he executed them without trial. He was fighting a revolutionary war, sometimes he had no choice but to execute people. It's not hard to imagine. When you have no secure prisons, no state and are hiding in the mountains you don't have the resources to do anything but kill someone who's release would pose a major threat.

Che does however write in the art of guerilla warfare that ordinary soldiers captures should be released without harm and I have no doubt he did this.

 

[Nemesis6]

So... Che did NOT murder POWS?

 

[CptStern]

Looks like someone can't keep on topic. Much less address the issue. Anyway, that was your response: An article from 7 years ago that describes something that happened over ten years ago. There's a difference: Israel has admitted to its mistakes and recognized them, Che has not, and I doubt he would if he had lived to ponder them in jail. Plus, he has been idolized, and his "mistakes" swept under the carpet because he was a "revolutionary", and now we have people like Gray Fox acting out the "useful idiot"(Thank you for that one, Lenin) role for him all over the globe. Israel doesn't seem to be in the same position now does it? You can draw parallels all you want, it's not gonna change the fact that Israel cannot be compared to Che the murderer -- Well, unless you're a tart, in which case go for it.

ok first of all ..it's 'tard not tart ..this is a tart, this is also a tart

I am neither of those things ..if you're going to use english slang at least use it correctly



again with the goddam "mistakes" ..how do you miistakenly torture someone? "Oh dear heaven, he fell on top of the hot poking irons" or "oh the poor dear got trapped in the Iron maiden and someone mistakenly closed the door"

in any event, my point which you jumped through hoops to avoid, was that torture is torture no matter who is administiring the hot irons

 

[Nemesis6]

You misunderstand me when I say "mistake" in this context - Mistake as in something bad. And by the way, keep the grammar-nazi stuff to yourself, especially when I could lecture you on punctuation and capitalization. No reason to stoop this low.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Why were they unlawful killings? Because he had a different ideology then you? I haven't see any evidence they were any more unlawful then the Nuremberg trials. It's just you claiming they were.

And none of those site you posted count as reliable, they can either be easily replicated or are rightwing. It's like me quoting the PANC in defense of bush. it's basically their word against dozens of other sites who say the opposite. And even if they were true, it still wouldn't be anything near genocide. certainly nothing worse then most people we count as heroes or idols did in times of war.

It's unlawful to kill someone without a fair trail at Nuremberg they had fair trails, is that so hard to understand? Did you read those sources, granted they aren't of the best quality but they contain eyewitness accounts and quote their sources, they are reliable. I didn't say it was genocide, it's unlawful killings and murder, which are in my opinion bad things.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Of course he executed them without trial. He was fighting a revolutionary war, sometimes he had no choice but to execute people. It's not hard to imagine. When you have no secure prisons, no state and are hiding in the mountains you don't have the resources to do anything but kill someone who's release would pose a major threat.

Bush: 'we need Guantanamo, to fight the terror! We have no time for trails'...Bet you don't agree with that.

In the La Cabana fortress incident, how exactly are killings without trail justified, and lets not forget these killings include journalists, POWs, civilians and businessmen

Che does however write in the art of guerrilla warfare that ordinary soldiers captures should be released without harm and I have no doubt he did this.

Well he was telling lies, as he contradicted this on a number of occasions. Face reality and accept Che was a murdering bastard just like Lenin

 

[Absinthe]

Of course he executed them without trial. He was fighting a revolutionary war, sometimes he had no choice but to execute people. It's not hard to imagine. When you have no secure prisons, no state and are hiding in the mountains you don't have the resources to do anything but kill someone who's release would pose a major threat.

So all standards drop for the sake of the revolution?

 

[Solaris]

So all standards drop for the sake of the revolution?

No they do not. If anything the standards must be higher. Che himself admitted this.

He was a great example we all should follow. He fought a revolution to free the people of cuba. I reject the propaganda being posted here as lies and fabrications. I'm sure he did execute some senior members of the previous regime, while on principle I do reject the death penalty; I will not hold that against him much when he directed it against such swine.

 

[Mr Stabby]

No they do not. If anything the standards must be higher. Che himself admitted this.

Isn't Che a hypocrite then.

He was a great example we all should follow. He fought a revolution to free the people of cuba.

Free to be forced into communism, or be considered a 'counter revolutionary'

I reject the propaganda being posted here as lies and fabrications.

Then your as ignorant as a creationist

I'm sure he did execute some senior members of the previous regime, while on principle I do reject the death penalty; I will not hold that against him much when he directed it against such swine.

One rule for Che, another rule for everyone else.

 

[Flyingdebris]

Dear god, solaris. One can only hope you grow out of this stage where you're mistaking wishful thinking for actual history.

you are to Communists what goths are to vampires.

 

[mastag]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I know next to nothing about different political ideologies. I read 1984, and thats about it.

So, that said, I must say, why make such a frail monument?