Christians On A Bus along with Ravioli

Some say hell is basically being away from God.

I don't think that's too bad as long as I'm not getting a fork in my ass.
 
Absinthe said:
Hmm...

I understand what you're saying, but saying that I'm going to Hell - regardless of politeness in tone - is still very assy no matter what. Their lamentable observation that I'm doomed to a fiery eternity according to their beliefs is certainly preferable to the threat of being sent to one, but you know what it sounds like any way?

"You seem like a really nice guy and I have no reason to believe you're evil, but you're still gonna fry. Sorry! :)"

Not the most endearing comment somebody can make. It's like the person saying it absolves himself of any personal judgment and refuses to recognize how ****ed up that is. I don't know about you, but I would rethink my ideological subscriptions if I found they persecuted good people for no real reason, not throw my hands in the air with that stupid "That's how the dice rolls!" cock-gobbling grin.

I think it's cowardice, quite frankly. And it certainly makes me think less of others when they say it to me. I may identify myself as an atheist, and that of course carries the obvious implication that I think everybody else is wrong when it comes to this shit, but I'm not going to bring it up. Just the same, I'm very much aware that many Christians think I'm going to burn in the afterlife, so there's no need to say it unless you're trolling. Or stupid.

ADDED: I wonder, would these people have been as quick to point out Ravioli's Hell-bound trajectory if he identified himself as a Muslim or a Jew? I doubt it. Hell, that could have been an opening for some good ol' inter-faith dialogue. Nobody thinks twice about putting an atheist on the spot in public.
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So what you're saying is you're cool with them thinking you'll go to hell, but if they say it with some shit-eating grin on their face it's still a dick move?

Yeah, I'm pretty low-key about that. I avoid religious conversations, as I wonder whether there is a God. It's a debate I've had for some time now, and as such I rarely put anything forth in religious discussion, since I have no hard-defined beliefs either way.
 
dabomb29 said:
I don't believe in any religions god. I just believe that there is a god out there, and the afterlife is whatever you want it to be.
Click to expand...

So your 'spiritual' the only thing than can kill religion in a battle of stupid.
 
In my afterlife all of my fictional anime characters really exist, no games have any framerate lag, there are no arguments about religion and Square Enix does not exist.

Dying is sounding better and better.
 
Maestro said:
So what you're saying is you're cool with them thinking you'll go to hell, but if they say it with some shit-eating grin on their face it's still a dick move?
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I wouldn't say I'm "cool" with it, since I still think it's retarded and immoral. But there's no need for it to be brought up in most conversations, especially on a freakin' bus ride with strangers.
 
Absinthe said:
I wouldn't say I'm "cool" with it, since I still think it's retarded and immoral. But there's no need for it to be brought up in most conversations, especially on a freakin' bus ride with strangers.
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Well I could explain the logic behind "good people are damned," but I won't, since no one here would listen anyway.
 
Krynn72 said:
The bible says Atheists are going to go to hell. Its not like they just suddenly hate you and are cursing you to hell. In their eyes, you already damned yourself to hell. I mean, beyond the overall belief in heaven and hell, its not really crazy that they would think that. I don't get why you're so shocked.

You should have taken that bible, because it kinda seems like you have no idea what you're talking about.


And I agree with numbers' first post. I pretty much never mention I'm an atheist to anyone. Especially where I live now. I've mentioned it a couple of times, and each time it turned into a cluster**** of angry people all angry at me.
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wow, really ? That's a pretty shitty thing to get angry about. "look guys, he has a different opinion on the nature of life and the cosmos than us, let us make him conform". Though I wouldn't know how an Atheist gets treated like in your area.


Edit: nvm. Saw your other posts.
 
Maestro said:
Exactly why I won't bother explaining.
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I've heard many excuses and poor rationalizations for why good people burn in Hell.

None of them approach what I would consider logic. Or even humaneness.
 
Shyam said:
wow, really ? That's a pretty shitty thing to get angry about. "look guys, he has a different opinion on the nature of life and the cosmos than us, let us make him conform". Though I wouldn't know how an Atheist gets treated like in your area.


Edit: nvm. Saw your other posts.
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In the US we have this wonderful thing called "the bible belt". Its a series of southern states that are hugely religious. Louisiana is is like the king of the bible belt states, and many of the people here are convinced that atheists are the "devils minions."

Also, in just this 18 square mile town town there are 86 churches.
 
Absinthe said:
I've heard many excuses and poor rationalizations for why good people burn in Hell.

None of them approach what I would consider logic. Or even humaneness.
Click to expand...

Well, I could give a basic explanation, then I won't have wasted much effort.

OK, start with the basic tenet that there is a God, and it is a perfect being who is omnipotent. This is essential to even understanding what I'm saying.

Now, the demand of Christianity, at its base, if you cut all the bullshit that has been added, boils down to this:

God is a perfect being. He created man in his image. This God demands that any being directly in his presence be perfect (ie, in heaven). Because all men sin, big or small it doesn't matter, they are imperfect. Thus, they are unsuitable for God's presence.

There is, however, a way to absolve yourself of sins, and that is to recognize Jesus Christ as your one true savior a part of the holy trinity, father/son/holy spirit. This is the only way, not to try and do more good than you do evil, and not to confess your sins. Catholicism would have you think otherwise, but this is not the case.

Taken from NIV, Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This is essentially "you cannot work for salvation, only for damnation."

Kapiche? And if you pull some bullshit about how this doesn't make any sense, then you have missed the point entirely. The most important tenet of this whole thing is that you believe in the Bible in the first place. If you can't put yourself in that perspective at least temporarily, then you are incapable of understanding the logic.

Also, if you ignore the young-earth creationists, the creation of the earth by God is a parable to the creation of life on earth. Adam and Eve being representative of the first humans, and eating of the fruit being our discovery of right and wrong. That is, however, another discussion entirely.

I do not, however, pretend to be an expert Christian apologist, and you would be well-advised to seek someone more knowledgeable than I for more information.
 
Makes perfect sense, really. You just explained your version of Christianity, what's with that burning in hell logic?

Ravioli, next time take this bus.

07london-inline1-650.jpg
 
Polaris said:
Makes perfect sense, really. You just explained your version of Christianity, what's with that burning in hell logic?

Ravioli, next time take this bus.

07london-inline1-650.jpg
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The wages of sin is death, it is in essence the punishment for sinning and not accepting Jesus as savior. I don't pretend to know the inner logic of an omnipotent being, nor do I claim that I wholly believe this, as previously stated.
 
When I was in highschool, my friend's mom learned that I was an atheist and then I wasn't allowed to come over to his house anymore. ._.
 
Dont want prison assrape in my future.
 
Maestro said:
Well, I could give a basic explanation, then I won't have wasted much effort.

OK, start with the basic tenet that there is a God, and it is a perfect being who is omnipotent. This is essential to even understanding what I'm saying.

Now, the demand of Christianity, at its base, if you cut all the bullshit that has been added, boils down to this:

God is a perfect being. He created man in his image. This God demands that any being directly in his presence be perfect (ie, in heaven). Because all men sin, big or small it doesn't matter, they are imperfect. Thus, they are unsuitable for God's presence.

There is, however, a way to absolve yourself of sins, and that is to recognize Jesus Christ as your one true savior a part of the holy trinity, father/son/holy spirit. This is the only way, not to try and do more good than you do evil, and not to confess your sins. Catholicism would have you think otherwise, but this is not the case.

Taken from NIV, Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This is essentially "you cannot work for salvation, only for damnation."

Kapiche? And if you pull some bullshit about how this doesn't make any sense, then you have missed the point entirely. The most important tenet of this whole thing is that you believe in the Bible in the first place. If you can't put yourself in that perspective at least temporarily, then you are incapable of understanding the logic.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said "excuses and poor rationalizations". Sure, it's a logical progression if you believe Bible, but since the Bible's authenticity and credibility are often always at the heart of these disputes, I don't see how that helps your case. The logic breaks down at Square One.

It does make sense, but only in an exceedingly perverse way. It makes sense if you think an eternity of Hellfire is a reasonable or otherwise appropriate consequence for not believing in a god, regardless of a person's moral fabric. Do you think this?

I don't know if you're espousing your personal views here. Regardless, it's foul shit. You wouldn't let such a sick and twisted moral standard or dictum stand here, on this planet, on this physical plane, ignoring all religious mysticism. We would call it tyranny if a human person were to exact such laws onto his people. But Christians will bullshit away any such concerns with their god because stupid ****ing HURR HURR BIBLE LOGIC can't be questioned.
 
PLEASE, MODS

PLEASE CLOSE THIS ****ING TOPIC BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND
 
I WILL KILL GOD WITH MY BARE HANDS BEFORE THEY DO SO

I CAN DO IT
 
Absinthe said:
This is exactly what I was talking about when I said "excuses and poor rationalizations". Sure, it's a logical progression if you believe Bible, but since the Bible's authenticity and credibility are often always at the heart of these disputes, I don't see how that helps your case. The logic breaks down at Square One.

It does make sense, but only in an exceedingly perverse way. It makes sense if you think an eternity of Hellfire is a reasonable or otherwise appropriate consequence for not believing in a god, regardless of a person's moral fabric. Do you think this?

I don't know if you're espousing your personal views here. Regardless, it's foul shit. You wouldn't let such a sick and twisted moral standard or dictum stand here, on this planet, on this physical plane, ignoring all religious mysticism. We would call it tyranny if a human person were to exact such laws onto his people. But Christians will bullshit away any such concerns with their god because stupid ****ing HURR HURR BIBLE LOGIC can't be questioned.
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I knew I was wasting my effort.
 
I think I should mention that while I myself do not believe in religion, I cynically exploit the beliefs of others for the Greater Good. I find that I am able to justify a lot of things by citing beliefs that I do not share.
 
If you're not an orthodox Christian you're going to hell.
 
The only reason i could think of for saying "You're going to hell" is just to watch the crazed anger and Irritation of the one being spoken to.
 
Absinthe said:
You mistake me for somebody who doesn't understand you.

I do, completely. And I think it's dumb.
Click to expand...

I said at the beginning that you can't possibly understand it if you cannot take it from a basic perspective of the Bible being right. Although I do not expect you to take it literally, if you cannot at least begin with this hypothetical tenet, then you cannot understand.

What you have failed to do at 'square one' is understand the Bible as the word of the omnipotent God. I do not expect you to actually believe this, but to temporarily make your judgment from the perspective of "this is the full and true Word Of God(TM)." You may doubt the authenticity of the Bible, but what I asked was for you to take it from the perspective of the Bible being authentic.

God is not subject to our laws, and in fact a human could not possibly enforce such things because he would not be omnipotent or perfect. The argument of it being unjustified tyranny if a human did it is true, but this is God, and that makes it a false analogy.

Your anger and ad hominem reveals that you are not actually interested in understanding what I said. You just want to be right. You may be right, as I said I debate daily the existence of God, but that does not excuse you dismissing the argument I made by simply ignoring what I asked you to do at the beginning of the hypothetical exercise.

What I did was not argue the authenticity of the Bible as a historical text, I merely offered the logic behind Christianity's judgments. I might even be able to extract a straw man from your statements, but I think that's more work than it merits.
 
What you're not getting is that "logic" based on something illogical isn't logic. If you have to accept something illogical in order for their reasoning to become logical, well, it just doesnt work that way.
 
Maestro said:
There is, however, a way to absolve yourself of sins, and that is to recognize Jesus Christ as your one true savior a part of the holy trinity, father/son/holy spirit. This is the only way, not to try and do more good than you do evil, and not to confess your sins. Catholicism would have you think otherwise, but this is not the case.

Taken from NIV, Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This is essentially "you cannot work for salvation, only for damnation."
.
Click to expand...

james 2:24- "ye have seen then, that it is by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone."(KJV) being a good person may not be the way out but it helps, for example if you have two believers who both have identical faith, one leads a good loving life, the other leads a hateful, sinful life but belives in Christ his whole life, who's going where?

and it says in numerous points in scripture that part of the deal with faith is to confess your sins to Christ to be absolved, you don't just declare your faith in him in one act and then it's all over and you're saved as many protestants seem to believe.
 
Maestro said:
God is not subject to our laws, and in fact a human could not possibly enforce such things because he would not be omnipotent or perfect. The argument of it being unjustified tyranny if a human did it is true, but this is God, and that makes it a false analogy.
Click to expand...

If god is not subject to any laws/morals then he could potentially be just as bad if not worse than the devil. After all he is willing to torture anyone for all eternity just for not caring about him. :|
 
Apparently the orthodox afterlife is that your spirit (subtle-body) is put within the graces of God himself, and you will be bathed in his holy light.

If you're riddled with sin, you burn. If you're riddled with good, you bask in it's glory.
 
Maestro said:
I said at the beginning that you can't possibly understand it if you cannot take it from a basic perspective of the Bible being right. Although I do not expect you to take it literally, if you cannot at least begin with this hypothetical tenet, then you cannot understand.

What you have failed to do at 'square one' is understand the Bible as the word of the omnipotent God. I do not expect you to actually believe this, but to temporarily make your judgment from the perspective of "this is the full and true Word Of God(TM)." You may doubt the authenticity of the Bible, but what I asked was for you to take it from the perspective of the Bible being authentic.

God is not subject to our laws, and in fact a human could not possibly enforce such things because he would not be omnipotent or perfect. The argument of it being unjustified tyranny if a human did it is true, but this is God, and that makes it a false analogy.

Your anger and ad hominem reveals that you are not actually interested in understanding what I said. You just want to be right. You may be right, as I said I debate daily the existence of God, but that does not excuse you dismissing the argument I made by simply ignoring what I asked you to do at the beginning of the hypothetical exercise.

What I did was not argue the authenticity of the Bible as a historical text, I merely offered the logic behind Christianity's judgments. I might even be able to extract a straw man from your statements, but I think that's more work than it merits.
Click to expand...
Maestro, I want you to do something. Count how many times things are conveyed via a metaphor in the Bible. Count how many times your pastor speaks in metaphors. Think about how vague those metaphors are. They could mean almost anything, right? Given the right person, they could be interpreted to mean anything. How can you trust something that can't be definitive about the truth it espouses?
 
Maestro said:
I said at the beginning that you can't possibly understand it if you cannot take it from a basic perspective of the Bible being right. Although I do not expect you to take it literally, if you cannot at least begin with this hypothetical tenet, then you cannot understand.

What you have failed to do at 'square one' is understand the Bible as the word of the omnipotent God. I do not expect you to actually believe this, but to temporarily make your judgment from the perspective of "this is the full and true Word Of God(TM)." You may doubt the authenticity of the Bible, but what I asked was for you to take it from the perspective of the Bible being authentic.

God is not subject to our laws, and in fact a human could not possibly enforce such things because he would not be omnipotent or perfect. The argument of it being unjustified tyranny if a human did it is true, but this is God, and that makes it a false analogy.

Your anger and ad hominem reveals that you are not actually interested in understanding what I said. You just want to be right. You may be right, as I said I debate daily the existence of God, but that does not excuse you dismissing the argument I made by simply ignoring what I asked you to do at the beginning of the hypothetical exercise.

What I did was not argue the authenticity of the Bible as a historical text, I merely offered the logic behind Christianity's judgments. I might even be able to extract a straw man from your statements, but I think that's more work than it merits.
Click to expand...

You accuse me of missing your point, but I disagree.

Know this. I am aware that the law is predicated on the word of the Bible. You want me to understand your perspective? I already do, and it doesn't change a damn thing. The logical progression doesn't matter if the base claim is erroneous or has no credibility. Sure, I could sit here and pretend for a moment that I was a Christian with unquestioning faith and adherence to shit-stupid laws in an ancient book. I fail to see what what I'd accomplish or learn from this. In the end, the heart of the issue is that you are willing to accept bizarre moral standards from a fantasy novel that you would never accept from another human being.

"BUT ABSINTHE YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE THE PERFECTION OF THE BIBLE AND GOD BLA BLA BLA"

No shit, really?

I could also argue what the logical implications would be if, hypothetically, our oceans were actually Mountain Dew. And if you say "No Absinthe, that's stupid and a waste of time", I will accuse you of being obstinate and refusing to suspend your judgments, because you're not actually interested in what I'm saying. HA.

I don't think you even know what an ad hominem attack is (Hint: It doesn't mean "harshly worded"), and if you think I've committed a straw man fallacy, I would like to see where I've misread you. My suspicion, however, is that I understand your argument fully and still think it sucks. Your concession that "God works in mysterious ways" shows me that you're no different than any other apologist that's been on this board, and you certainly aren't saying anything I haven't heard before.

But hey, I'm just wasting your time and effort, right? Just dismiss me as your regular angry internet atheist.
 
I'm Buddhist, soooooo, can't we all just get along? Free hugs all round
 
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