competitive vs casuals in tf2

[Warbie]

I play TF2 with people from various fps backgrounds. Mostly twitchy stuff - the quakes, tfc, rctw/et etc - and all would agree that competitive TF2 is a very different game to that seen on publics. This is the norm for pretty much any fps in clan play - anyone who plays competitively regularly will know this - but even more so with TF2. This isn't to say TF2 is some crazy hardcore clan shooter, but rather how chaotic it is on public servers and that the contrast between the two games is bigger than usual.

I appreciate that there are some devout tfc fans around who judge TF2 on how it differs from tfc rolling and I just want them to know the are full of shite. Believe what you want about the good old days of tfc - how it requires uber skill and practice - but the fact is competitive gaming back then was played at a considerably lower level than it is now. In all genres. I know various experienced tfc players (two of which who were in one of the best tfc clans in europe when that actually meant something) and the consensus is that division 1 tfc back then is more comparable to the teams we meet in division 3 now. You weren't uber skilled supermen flying through the air - just nubs nade spamming other nubs

 

[i_liek_shootan]

That's a different argument really - you're talking about the overall standard of play within online gaming going up.

This isn't something we can debate with a straight face without facts or figures.

I stand by my points - TFC has a higher learning curve plateau than TF2, ceteris paribus.

Perhaps you're right - in 1998 when TFC first came out and only the relatively well off had net connections (reducing the size of the online gaming community), perhaps the standard was lower. But your forget TFC was still played competitively on a largeish scale well into 2004. At least in Europe it was anyway. I think bearing that in mind, your argument is a little bit disingenuous.

Hardly the dark days of BBSes, MUDs and Direct Modem Quake games.

 

[Warbie]

From the other thread.

Based on those experiences, and of other FPS games, TF2 as I said originally, has the usual individual skills - hitscan aiming and rocket leading which both TFC and Quake have, but it LACKS the advanced movement skills. Therefore, the required individual skill level is lower overall.

And if that's all there was to it, i'd agree with you. Strafe jumping has been replaced with punishing focus on positioning and situational awareness. That probably sounds like bollocks - especially if you haven't played in a match - but it's true. It's not about being the fastest (although entire rounds are lost by turning up to a point a second or two slower than the other team), but in simply being in the right place (and yes, you can say that about many games - but they aren't as punishing of the tiniest mistake). You'll notice i'm using the word punishing alot, but that's the difference that stands out to me most about competitive TF2. You don't block a rocket and your medic dies - round lost. A sniper hits the medic - round lost. You get caught up in a fight to the front and don't notice the two scouts behind your medic - round lost. It's much harder to twitch aim when you have to be constantly worrying about that little shit.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

From the other thread.



And if that's all there was to it, i'd agree with you. Strafe jumping has been replaced with punishing focus on positioning and situational awareness. That probably sounds like bollocks - especially if you haven't played in a match - but it's true. It's not about being the fastest (although entire rounds are lost by turning up to a point a second or two slower than the other team), but in simply being in the right place (and yes, you can say that about many games - but they aren't as punishing of the tiniest mistake). You'll notice i'm using the word punishing alot, but that's the difference that stands out to me most about competitive TF2. You don't block a rocket and your medic dies - round lost. A sniper hits the medic - round lost. You get caught up in a fight to the front and don't notice the two scouts behind your medic - round lost. It's much harder to twitch aim when you have to be constantly worrying about that little shit.

I get what you're saying but TFC was quite punishing of positioning too - especially when talking about static defensive positions n CTF maps. Being out of position could well cost you a cap and therefore the map.

I think the fact remains that whilst twitch and lead skills are equally present in both games, and there is a degree of teamwork in both, the advanced individualistic movement skills have been removed from one of the games entirely.

 

[Lobster]

My post before was a bit silly really, I will try and be a bit more coherant this time.

You are right in saying that the learning curve in TF2 is less than in TFC. Valve have deliberately made the game less brutal in a one-on-one combat sense, to make things more accessible to a wider audience of players, the basic skills of the classes are essentialy what you are given to use, and there arent really any control based skills to learn over time.

However at the same time I do feel they have made the class roles more clear cut, the medic is primarily a healer now, that is his role and thats why you choose to play one, which in turn makes the scouts role as intel carrier and fast-mover more unique to him. I can see how that approach could alienate old school TFC players who miss the twitch gameplay and see it as having their wings clipped, but I do think there is a greater emphasis on teamwork in TF2 over TFC, simply because it is harder to do things alone. Its more about team decisions now instead of individual fighting skills.

I think there is a gap in the market at the moment for a traditional twitch based deathmatch FPS, the Unreal Tournament series over complicated itself into oblivion, and the Quake series has fallen back to rereleasing Quake 3 over and over.

 

[Acepilotf14]

But does any of this 'oh, i can't use my little bunnyhopping crap' REALLY matter? You're not playing TFC, you're playing TF2. They're two entirely different games. Learn to play TF2, or go back to TFC where you know everything. The element of grenades was removed entirely, which balanced things out to a degree, and all the classes were somewhat reformated. Everything comes together to make a nice, clean game.

Also, it's Team Fortress 2, not bunnyhopping fortress 2.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

My post before was a bit silly really, I will try and be a bit more coherant this time.

You are right in saying that the learning curve in TF2 is less than in TFC. Valve have deliberately made the game less brutal in a one-on-one combat sense, to make things more accessible to a wider audience of players, the basic skills of the classes are essentialy what you are given to use, and there arent really any control based skills to learn over time.

However at the same time I do feel they have made the class roles more clear cut, the medic is primarily a healer now, that is his role and thats why you choose to play one, which in turn makes the scouts role as intel carrier and fast-mover more unique to him. I can see how that approach could alienate old school TFC players who miss the twitch gameplay and see it as having their wings clipped, but I do think there is a greater emphasis on teamwork in TF2 over TFC, simply because it is harder to do things alone. Its more about team decisions now instead of individual fighting skills.

I think there is a gap in the market at the moment for a traditional twitch based deathmatch FPS, the Unreal Tournament series over complicated itself into oblivion, and the Quake series has fallen back to rereleasing Quake 3 over and over.

I don't disagree with anything you have said here. In fact I agree with all of it.

Also, it's Team Fortress 2, not bunnyhopping fortress 2.

Gee, thanks for that, cos, y'know, I keep getting pulled up on that in discussions - calling it BunnyHop Fortress 2 an' all? So cheers for that.

 

[Warbie]

I get what you're saying but TFC was quite punishing of positioning too - especially when talking about static defensive positions n CTF maps. Being out of position could well cost you a cap and therefore the map.

I'm talking about while moving as a group and when teams clash head on, not tactical positioning. The biggest adjustment I had to make in TF2 (mainly play soldier) was in not taking unnecessary risks. By that I don't mean running off on my own, but something as simple as being pulled a few meters away from the medic when he's particularly vulnerable. Or getting caught up in a fight for a few seconds and not focus firing at the crucial point. In other shooters i've had to worry most about hitting the target and keeping up with the group. In TF2 I find I have to do this while also having a greater sense of situational awareness. It's much easier to spot and track a target when you have a relative free roam - doing it on a leash while also protecting a weak teamate makes things considerably more involved.

But yeah, we could go in circles comparing things like this. I think a good TF2 scout requires more skill in movement than anything required in other fps. You probably disagree. I suspect you think tfc requires a similar level or teamplay/situational awareness, I don't at all. Maybe see what TF2 is like a higher level - I think you'd be surprised at how brutally raped and quickly skilled teams can wipe each other out.

You are right in saying that the learning curve in TF2 is less than in TFC.

Are we comparing learning curves in the public game or at clan level?

 

[Xevrex]

In my opinion, Counter Strike: Source and Team Fortress 2 are both easily seen to be more competitive and more casual, respectfully. Even the art styles can convey that: CSS' style is sort of photo-realism (as much as the Source engine can get for that) and TF2's is stylization. Team Fortress 2 was most likely made with casual gaming in mind -- it requires less individual skill, allows you to respawn within rounds, and besides the certain somewhat skill-requiring quirks of the class allows you to easily pick up and play and as was said before, offput another's game. CSS relies on individual skill and teamwork, its more serious art style conveys this as well as how easy it is to kill someone (depending on skill of the player and weapon, of course), money system, and strategic weapon choice and positioning.

Before you start yelling at me because CSS isn't a part of this discussion, my argument includes it because the point I'm attempting to get across is that Valve has two games geared toward two different audiences -- a competitive audience (CSS) and a casual audience (TF2). As CSS was developed before TF2, they most likely thought they could do well without another serious game and threw in a more light-hearted experience.

 

[Viperidae]

@Warbie

What exactly do you mean by 'good scout'? The ability to stay alive? To kill? Then that's odd, because after 2 years I find Scout much, much easier to dominate as compared to, say, CS, and I played 6 years of that. I'm not saying Scout is easy, but to say that it's harder to play than any fps...

And if you just mean movement, then you're delusional. bhopping is way harder than Scout's double-jump rinse-and-repeat. Heck, surfing is infinitely harder than playing as Scout, and I'd argue that most CS players have learned to surf at one point or another.

@Xev

CS? Realistic? I'd love to be able to take 4 5.56 rounds to the chest and sprint faster with a knife. CS was actually catered to TF players later in its life. Remember when the AWP was an instant kill no matter where you shot?

Also strategic weapon choice!?!?!?! Aside from para rush I'm not sure what you mean. It's AK, AWP, M4, Deagle.

 

[Warbie]

I do mean just movement. Being able to double jump while continually twitch hitting the target in mid air and not being hit is up there with the most tricky q3 rail gunning. Harder imo. I'm talking about match play here btw - there's no point getting caught up comparing public server experiences between different games.

 

[Xevrex]

@Xev

CS? Realistic? I'd love to be able to take 4 5.56 rounds to the chest and sprint faster with a knife. CS was actually catered to TF players later in its life. Remember when the AWP was an instant kill no matter where you shot?

You read it wrong. I said photo-realism, not realistic. Photo-realism is an art style wherein one tries to replicate real-life looks with CG. CSS' killing is not realistic by any means, except for headshots but hurrr doesn't take one shot.

Also strategic weapon choice!?!?!?! Aside from para rush I'm not sure what you mean. It's AK, AWP, M4, Deagle.

Not really strategic, I guess it's more like personal choice. I never choose the AWP because I suck at aiming a sniper rifle; others are better and stay away from spray weapons.

 

[Viperidae]

@ Warbie

And I'm talking small-community Arena play. I still say bhopping is harder. With djump you don't even have to be facing a certain direction, it's just up to your movement keys. bhop required insane amounts of arm movement (thus detracting from your ability to aim) for the strafe mod. I don't see how you can compare them.

@ Xev

You mentioned less hits to kill. Somehow that gave me the impression you were indicating it was realistic. I also don't see how CS's artstyle tells people it's more individual-oriented.

 

[Xevrex]

@ Xev

You mentioned less hits to kill. Somehow that gave me the impression you were indicating it was realistic. I also don't see how CS's artstyle tells people it's more individual-oriented.

It takes less hits to kill than it does in TF2. That's what I meant.

CS's artstyle isn't telling people it is more individual-oriented; I was saying that it conveyed a more serious atmosphere than TF2's light-hearted bright and stylized graphics.

Gawd, how meanings can get convoluted because of mangled writing.

 

[Warbie]

I don't see how you can compare them.

I wasn't, you brought up bunny hopping

However, being able to dance through an entire team as a scout, taking little damage and landing all your shots, is incredibly hard.

 

[Viperidae]

I think a good TF2 scout requires more skill in movement than anything required in other fps.

You did.

 

[Warbie]

You did.

Fair enough. I still think the scout is up there.

 

[Eejit]

I think you're confusing "skill in movement" with "movement skill" viper.

 

[Viperidae]

In this case they go hand in hand. As I said, aiming with bhop is inordinately harder than with djump. With the latter, your mouse hand is free to aim where you please and has no effect on your jumping ability.

 

[i_liek_shootan]

I do mean just movement. Being able to double jump while continually twitch hitting the target in mid air and not being hit is up there with the most tricky q3 rail gunning. Harder imo. I'm talking about match play here btw - there's no point getting caught up comparing public server experiences between different games.

Not true. What Viper says is actually bang on the money.

TFC bunnyhopping, and trying to engage in combat at the same time including grenade throws and hitscan weapons is ridiculously hard in hand-eye coordination terms. Much more so the the TF2 Scout's double jumping.

You have so many things to worry about:

Maintaing bunnyhop speed by avoiding obstacles
Timing jumps to p-e-r-f-e-c-t-i-o-n
Timing grenade throws to direction the bunnyhop has you facing
Engaging in effective hitscan shootan combat whilst the bunnyhopping is moving your screen view all over the place

From a hand-eye coord perspective this is far and away above anything in TF2. I'm sorry but there it is.


Then add in some conc jumping / conc sprinting or trimping for good measure and you've got movement that takes, literally, years to master.

 

[Darkside55]

Also darkside I believe the teamwork on my regular server has more to do with the skill and quality of players and their willingness to work as a team than being used to each other. The number of regulars is something like 40-60 for the 24-man server, it's quite different from a clan.

They're still regulars willing to work with regulars. Yeah, skillwise, I'm sure if you all went into other servers you'd do the same thing, and maybe get some people who'd cooperate in a team with you (which is like what I was saying for TFC; the more skilled you became the more you were able to coordinate and the more you focused on goals for the team), but I'm trying to say that it isn't the rule--it's the exception.

See, I don't have a TF2 server I regularly play on. I migrate around, playing whatever server has a good ping, solid number of players, has server settings I like and is on a map I want to play. So I get the opportunity to play on a lot of different servers. If you visit a lot of servers you get more of a picture of the average playerbase than if you play on one server that has a constant set of players with a constant skill level.

Also just as an aside that has nothing to do with the argument, your comment about "the number of regulars is 40-60...quite different from a clan" my clan at its prime in TFC had 70 members. Seventy. Across three servers.

the mainstream popularity of TF2 compared to TFC (esp in its later years) probably contributes to lower average player ability and so less teamwork

Thanks for admitting it's a casual game for casuals.

TF2 isn't even that casual

It is a hard game to get into

especially learning how to play all the classes right

I dont personaly think the lack of obscure buggy "skills" detracts from the competative nature of the game...TF2 is meant to be a team game

The problem I found with things such as Conc jumping in TFC is you had some players who were so good at it, that they could win maps on their own

TF2 should be more about the team working together and a win or loss being determined by their tactics and ability to implement them

ACTUALLY F*CKING SAYING THAT A SINGLE PLAYER WHOSE SKILL IS ENOUGH THAT HE CAPTURES POINTS FOR THE WHOLE GODDAMNED TEAM IS SOMEHOW NOT CREDIT TO TEAM, THAT HE IS NOT WORKING FOR THE TEAM, OR THAT BECAUSE HE IS SKILLED HE DOES NOT EMBODY THE 'NATURE' OF TEAM FORTRESS

FURTHERMORE SAYING THAT A TEAM SHOULD WORK TOGETHER COORDINATING TACTICS AND ABILITY

TACTICS AND ABILITY

ABILITY

INDIVIDUAL SKILL IS A GODDAMNED ABILITY THAT HELPS THE TEAM

 

[Eejit]

Also just as an aside that has nothing to do with the argument, your comment about "the number of regulars is 40-60...quite different from a clan" my clan at its prime in TFC had 70 members. Seventy. Across three servers.

Sounds unusually large but ok

Thanks for admitting it's a casual game for casuals.

It's what you make of it. TF2 is certainly more casual friendly, but the competitive side still requires excellent play and players. As I said before, the fact that individual skills for movement etc. are less important simply shifts the focus more to co-ordination - particularly with TF2's medic dynamic.


Nice rage pic

 

[Darkside55]

Sounds unusually large but ok

It really was. Have you ever heard of a clan being big enough to have a 32-man scrim against itself?

In hindsight...probably wasn't a good idea to have that many people. Sure was fun though.

It's what you make of it. TF2 is certainly more casual friendly, but the competitive side still requires excellent play and players. As I said before, the fact that individual skills for movement etc. are less important simply shifts the focus more to co-ordination - particularly with TF2's medic dynamic.

Well, I'm not saying individual skill counts for nothing in this game. You still have to move and aim and not get plastered on a wall. It utilizes a really basic set of skills for an FPS player though.

About the medic, it's an interesting kind of forced teamplay. Unless you learn to battle-medic, then the only way to play the class IS helping the team. Which was a nice way of doing it I'll admit, especially considering in TFC a medic was not a medic, but rather Armored Scout.

 

[Sheepo]

So you just came in here to flame? It's either one or the other and neither is so great for you

I don't care if it's flaming, it's an honest observation and I hope you listen to it.

We were having a discussion before you and your bunch of gangbangers arrived chief - check pages 1 and first half of 2. Or don't you read posts before flaming them? ROFL

This is a pretty good example. ROFL. I had no idea it was possible to be that condescending while sounding that supid. Troll scanning sequence activated.

And now I am afraid I must enter this (ultimately pointless) argument.

Lol, you sound pretty butthurt.

Team games can still have individuals of immense skill. Look at Maradona in football, especially the 86 World Cup, for an example of an individual within a team making the difference.

Did he concjump into the ****ing net? He didn't do it by himself, he didn't do the majority of the playing, he worked with his team. Was he still outstanding? Yes. Could he have done it himself? No. It's a game where no matter how good you are you'll still need your team to win. That's what TF2 is. If you don't like it I'm afraid you should be taking your business elsewhere.

 

[Darkside55]

It's a game where no matter how good you are you'll still need your team to win. That's what TF2 is.

I can easily contest this. Very easily.

 

[Sheepo]

1v16? Are you really up for that?

 

[Darkside55]

1v16

Heh, I could tell you a pretty amazing TFC story, but no one would ever believe it. Those exact numbers...


Anyway, what I was saying is, there have been times in TF2 where my team has done absolutely balls-nothing and I've won the round for the entire team. It isn't like it's special in any way, either--I see it happen; one extraordinary person pushing through for the intel cap or the command point.

You don't always need your teammates. Sometimes they're little more than bullet sponges...sometimes they're even more useless than that.

 

[Sheepo]

Winning cap doesn't count. If it weren't for the fact that your team was absorbing those bullets the other team would have it capped before you had the chance.

 

[Darkside55]

Not always, man. Not always. When you get to a point before your team does and beat back all the incoming enemies before your team even gets there, advance, beat back the next wave, advance...

 

[Sheepo]

ARAJTHDLFHGDJSHGDSHFSDG that wasn't even my point. I honestly don't get it now because I thought your main argument was that there is no room for individual players to excel or something. Bleh, this is why I typically stay out of casual vs competitive arguments. I honestly am never sure of the difference and don't honestly care as long as the game is good.

 

[Darkside55]

SHEEPO GETS EXASPERATED AND GIVES UP I WIN BY DEFAULT

But seriously the original argument wasn't that individual players can't excel, it's just that the game, without any high-level skills, becomes "who has the best low-level skills." And it's casual because there's not much you can do with just low-level skills; or rather that everyone has at least basic skills, which is all the game really asks for.

Which, you'll note, I've never said the game wasn't 'good' or 'fun,' just casual.

 

[Sheepo]

Um, what does learning skills matter? If the entire basis of your game is having enough skills to learn to keep your player coming back, you're pretty screwed. Giving the players fun situations in which to apply their skill is all that matters. But I know you'll tell me I'm a maggot, so I'll bite. What skills should there be?

 

[Xevrex]

No one in TF2 even really seems casual to me.

:l

 

[Sheepo]

I've met some of the most chill motheruckers playing TF2. Seriously, it has possibly the best community of any game I've ever encountered.

 

[Darkside55]

Um, what does learning skills matter?

LEARNING SKILLS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT PLAYING VIDEO GAMES

If the entire basis of your game is having enough skills to learn to keep your player coming back, you're pretty screwed.

As opposed to what it is right now, having to pad your game with achievements, special items, and hats to keep players interested?

What skills should there be?

Well shit I don't know what do I look like a game developer I'm just here to yell about things and talk about how everything was better in the old days I'm not here to make actual constructive criticisms or suggestions or be of help in any way

No one in TF2 even really seems casual to me.

Psssst...that means you're casual.

 

[Xevrex]

Psssst...that means you're casual.

D: But I try to distance myself from those people. How do I get help

 

[Sheepo]

As opposed to what it is right now, having to pad your game with achievements, special items, and hats to keep players interested?

Complete and utter ignorance of my point, which is that games are about applying a set of skills in interesting, dynamic, and fun ways. Unlocks do add a little more variety and depth which allow for that.

 

[Darkside55]

How do I not be a casual in TF2?

You must complete cp_bestinclass_v2.

And then do jump_dark. You must complete ALL of jump_dark.

THIS IS THE PATH YOU MUST WALK

games are about applying a set of skills in interesting, dynamic, and fun ways.

THAT IS NOT WHAT GAMES ARE ABOUT

GAMES ARE NOT ABOUT FUN

THEY ARE ABOUT LEARNING AND MASTERING IMPOSSIBLE SKILLS THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN DO SO YOU CAN SHOW OFF TO OTHER LIFELESS NERDS THAT YOU ARE A GOD-KING AMONG THEM

 

[Acepilotf14]

SCREW FUN

Are you having fun with the caps filter off, Darkside?

 

[Darkside55]

YES I AM

IF THERE'S ONE THING I CAN TRULY SAY THE MODS WERE KIND IN DOING IT WAS REMOVING THAT ACCURSED FILTER

NOW I CAN YELL ABOUT THINGS TO MY HEART'S CONTENT