Concealed weapons on campus?

[xcellerate]

It was front page of our school paper today, apparently they're trying to pass a bill that may allow students and/or professors to carry weapons on campus.

The idea is people will think twice about committing school shootings if they know students can have weapons too (aka, students can fight back). Except...don't a lot of these school shooters kill themselves afterwards anyway?

I can not see this being a good idea. Even my friends, when we go shooting, don't know how to properly handle a firearm. One of them even put my loaded, and chambered, pistol to his head in jest, but it was supposed to be okay because the safety was on. Most of them walk around with a chambered gun, rather than leaving the breach open till they get ready to fire. Basically it's just a whole lot of "I could never have a firearm accident" mentality. Or the "that could never happen to me! Only drunk rednecks make mistakes with guns!" train of thought...which is stupid.

So you give students guns, and put them all together, and you'll have people being like, "hey man let's compare guns!" or "dude, check out my new kimber!" And of course HEAVEN FORBID somebody actually tried to shoot up the place, because you'll have multiple carrying students all wanting to be the national hero by preventing the next school shooting, so they all draw their weapons and start firing at the guy...and from all my time spent at the range, I've seen how well your average shooter shoots...and it's almost guaranteed these students trying to be hero's will cause more damage than the single school shooter.

We've had about 43 school shootings in 12 years (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html) which means we have about 3-4 school shootings a year. And that's with guns being banned from campuses (at least all the campuses I know about) and students being strictly prohibited from carrying. I can't imagine the situation getting BETTER or even staying the same by allowing guns on campus.

Besides, could you imagine being the parent of a child who was killed, not by the school shooter, but by a student who wanted to be a hero by preventing the school shooting?


I can't really see this bill being passed, and I really hope it doesn't. Maybe I'm not giving the students enough credit or maybe the school will have an awesome way to filter who gets to carry and who doesn't...I have no idea. I love guns and I love shooting, but this just seems like a terrible, awful "solution".

 

[leib10]

There are already enough armed undercover officers in classes disguised as students in classes already.

I could only see the carrying of concealed weapons increasing the violence between two parties, rather than the random killings that these whackos seem to like perpetrating. So as much as I love guns and would like to carry on campus (and in reality, what is stopping me?), I wouldn't like to see it being legalized.

 

[CptStern]

so the saolution to guns at school is to introduce more guns?

school security at gun checkpoint:

guard: "personal safety or do you plan to go on a shooting spree?"

student: "personal safety"

guard: "ok off you go"


guard: "personal safety or do you plan to go on a shooting spree?"

student: "I'm going to do what I should have done long ago .."

guard: "ok off you go"







does this not sound ****ing crazy?

 

[Escaep]

Horrible idea. Imagine. Rival gangs going to the same school and weapons are allowed. School would become a war zone. There are already enough shootings with weapons not being allowed.

 

[Eejit]

Bad idea! It'll just turn the school shootings into chain reactions where everyone dies!

Nutjob starts shooting the place up. Two other students nearby with guns start shooting at him, killing him and hitting a few bystanders by mistake. Other students with guns a bit down the hallway misunderstand the situation and shoot those two guys, and miss and hit some bystanders themselves too. Yet more students with guns see these guys shooting someone who they think was either a)stopping the shooter - which means they were helping the nut, or b)shooting random people, in which case they try to stop them.

And on, and on, and on...

Clearly a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[MJ12]

I don't see anything wrong with being allowed to carry a knife on campus.
I carry a knife with me everywhere anyways, except school of course.

 

[Pulse]

Fighting fire with fire.

 

[xcellerate]

Horrible idea. Imagine. Rival gangs going to the same school and weapons are allowed. School would become a war zone. There are already enough shootings with weapons not being allowed.

there's supposed to be a filtration system involved to make sure only special people can carry a gun. So I assume if some black guy walked in dressed in all red throwing gang signs going, "yo, were do i sign ta carry ma glock?"...they probably wont let you carry.

 

[Pesmerga]

It won't stop school shootings, but it'll lower bodycounts for sure.

 

[Pulse]

It won't stop school shootings, but it'll lower bodycounts for sure.

A bunch of amateur, have-a-go-heroes shooting at a lone gunman are bound to cause more casualties if anything.

'I WILL SAVE US!'

Hostage down etc.

 

[repiV]

Wouldn't it be grand if decisions were based off facts and not prejudices?

OMG GUNS DEY FIRE BULLETS MORE GUNS IZ MORE DEAD PEOPLE!!!111 is an ignorant preconceived notion, nothing more. Pretty much the same as SPEED KILLS!!111 and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!111
Virtually all gun crime is committed with illegal guns, and there is no correlation, anywhere, ever, between legal concealed weapons carry and gun violence.
Furthermore, where are all the shootings in Utah where concealed carry is not barred on university premises?

 

[MJ12]

I'd imagine everyone carrying guns would just cause mass confusionm as to who is the killer.

 

[No Limit]

I dont think that adding more guns to fix a gun problem is going to do much. But what I don't understand is why is it not okay to carry a concealed weapon if you have a permit to have that weapon conealed. Getting a conceal carry permit is not as easy as some here seem to think it is. You have to go through a lot of training and classes and in many states you have to be at least 25 years of age. So just because you allowed legal conealed guns on campus doesn't mean everyone in your class will suddenly be packing heat.

 

[Pesmerga]

Doubtful, ZT. Most scenarios of a gunman entering a crowded room would be very isolated- it's not going to be like 50 students all independently going through a school to find the true shooter.

If that were the case, simple common sense and practiced gun safety would prevent friendly fire. Most people who are licensed to own a gun on school would be trained to use trigger discipline and target acquisition before firing.

In the end, I foresee schools becoming a much scarier place to go, but ultimately, safer. It's not going to be like the wild west where everybody pulls a gun when someone looks at someone else the wrong way. Carriers pride themselves on their ability to handle and safely wield weapons. Shooters would be up against a dozen armed students, and any possible misfires at other students would be minimal because 1)the intent is not there 2)who the **** would be standing in the line of sight between a gunman and an armed student.

It's better than having an armed student free to roam in campus while the police lolligag outside the school because of bureaucratic red tape.

 

[CptStern]

Wouldn't it be grand if decisions were based off facts and not prejudices?

OMG GUNS DEY FIRE BULLETS MORE GUNS IZ MORE DEAD PEOPLE!!!111 is an ignorant preconceived notion, nothing more. Pretty much the same as SPEED KILLS!!111 and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!111
Virtually all gun crime is committed with illegal guns, and there is no correlation, anywhere, ever, between legal concealed weapons carry and gun violence.
Furthermore, where are all the shootings in Utah where concealed carry is not barred on university premises?

first of all the article is talking specifically about schools and school shootings ..the majority of these incidents have involved legal guns (like the vtech massacre prep who managed to purchase 2 guns on saparate ocassions despite having a history of mental disease ..he was even court ordered to undergo psychiatric assessment yet was still able to purchase guns) ....and where did the criminals get their illegalguns? they didnt manufacture them in their basement ..a large percentage are stolen from legal owners

 

[PvtRyan]

There are already enough armed undercover officers in classes disguised as students in classes already.

"Hey, who's the new kid? And why does he look like a 40-year old?"

Furthermore, where are all the shootings in Utah where concealed carry is not barred on university premises?

Why hasn't anyone died of Ebola in Utah? I guess it must be the legalization of guns in schools. But I do believe that guns in schools are what caused global warming, so it's not all good.

Correlation and causation, learn the difference. How many school shootings were there in Utah before you were allowed to carry a gun in school?

 

[Pesmerga]

"Hey, who's the new kid? And why does he look like a 40-year old?"

This isn't uncommon at all in universities and community colleges.

 

[Pesmerga]

How many school shootings were there in Utah before you were allowed to carry a gun in school?

How many school shootings were there at all before Columbine?

Sorry, didn't mean to double post.

 

[xcellerate]

How many school shootings were there at all before Columbine?

So in 33 years (1999-1966) there was 21 shootings and in 9 years(2008-1999) there was 24 shootings...

1. University of Texas at Austin massacre Austin, Texas, United States August 1, 1966
2. Orangeburg Massacre Orangeburg, South Carolina, United States February 8, 1968
3. Kent State shootings Kent, Ohio, United States May 4, 1970
4. Jackson State killings Jackson, Mississippi, United States, May 14-15, 1970
5. California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre Fullerton, California, United States July 12, 1976
6. Cleveland Elementary School shooting San Diego, California, United States January 29, 1979
7. Parkway South Junior High School shooting Saint Louis, Missouri, United States January 20, 1983
8. Oakland Elementary School shooting Greenwood, South Carolina, United States September 26, 1988
9. Stockton massacre Stockton, California, United States January 17, 1989
10. University of Iowa shooting Iowa City, Iowa, United States November 1, 1991
11. Lindhurst High School shooting Marysville, California, United States May 1, 1992
12. Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States December 14, 1992
13. East Carter High School shooting Grayson, Kentucky, United States January 18, 1993
14. Richland High School shooting Lynnville, Tennessee, United States November 15, 1995
15. Frontier Junior High shooting Moses Lake, Washington, United States February 2, 1996
16. Bethel High School shooting Bethel, Alaska, United States February 19, 1997
17. Pearl High School shooting Pearl, Mississippi, United States October 1, 1997
18. Heath High School shooting West Paducah, Kentucky United States December 1, 1997
19. Jonesboro massacre Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States March 24, 1998
20. Parker Middle School Shooting Edinboro, Pennsylvania April 24, 1998
21. Thurston High School shooting Springfield, Oregon, United States May 21, 1998
22. Columbine High School massacre Littleton, Colorado, United States April 20, 1999
23. Heritage High School shooting Conyers, Georgia, United States May 20, 1999
24. Buell Elementary School shooting Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States February 29, 2000
25. Santana High School shooting Santee, California, United States March 5, 2001
26. Granite Hills High School shooting El Cajon, California March 22, 2001
27. Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia, United States January 16, 2002
28. University of Arizona School of Nursing shooting Tucson, Arizona, United States October 28, 2002
29. John McDonough High School Shooting New Orleans, Louisiana, United States April 14, 2003
30. Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States April 24, 2003
31. Case Western Reserve University shooting Cleveland, Ohio, United States May 9, 2003
32. Rocori High School shootings Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States September 24, 2003
33. Red Lake High School massacre Red Lake, Minnesota, United States March 21, 2005
34. Campbell County High School shooting Jacksboro, Tennessee November 8, 2005
35. Pine Middle School shooting Reno, Nevada, United States March 14, 2006
36. Platte Canyon High School shooting Bailey, Colorado, United States September 27, 2006
37. Weston High School shooting Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006
38. Amish school shooting Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States October 2, 2006
39. Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia, United States April 16, 2007
40. Delaware State University shooting Dover, Delaware, United States September 21, 2007
41. SuccessTech Academy shooting Cleveland, Ohio, United States October 10, 2007
42. Notre Dame Elementary shooting Portsmouth, Ohio, United States February 7, 2008
43. Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States February 8, 2008
44. Mitchell High School shooting Memphis, Tennessee, United States February 11, 2008
45. E.O. Green School shooting Oxnard, California, United States February 12, 2008
46. Northern Illinois University shooting DeKalb, Illinois, United States February 14, 2008

 

[CptStern]

there's already been more this year than all of 2007 :O ..it's the beginning of march ffs

 

[CyberPitz]

Fighting fire with fire.

Introduce flame throwers on campus? GENIUS!

 

[xcellerate]

although to be fair...here's the number of firearm related deaths according to the FBI:

1973 --13,072
1974 --13,987
1975 --13,496
1976 --11,982
1977 --11,950
1978 --12,437
1979 --13,582
1980 --14,377
1981 --14,052
1982 --12,648
1983 --11,258
1984 --10,990
1985 --11,141
1986 --12,181
1987 --11,879
1988 --12,553
1989 --13,416
1990 --15,025
1991 --16,376
1992 --16,204
1993 --17,048 <-- High
1994 --16,314
1995 --14,686
1996 --13,319
1997 --12,346
1998 --10,977
1999 --10,128 <-- Low
2000 --10,179
2001 --11,106
2002 --10,808
2003 --11,041
2004 --10,650
2005 --11,351
2006 --11,566

 

[JNightshade]

Jesus, what a terrible idea.

 

[MJ12]

If that were the case, simple common sense and practiced gun safety would prevent friendly fire. Most people who are licensed to own a gun on school would be trained to use trigger discipline and target acquisition

It's better than having an armed student free to roam in campus while the police lolligag outside the school because of bureaucratic red tape.

I simply don't trust the majority of people to be responsible with guns, regardless of where you are. Guns give most people a false sense of authority, and they simply abuse that idea. They should have some proffesors and administration trained with fire arms for cases like this, even that idea is a bit weary.

I still blame zero tolerance for most of this shit.

 

[repiV]

Jesus, what a terrible idea.

And evidently stopping people from exercising the right to carry their licensed weapons on campus is working really well.
Christ, I really hate to be so cliched, but the liberal way of doing things - everything - is starting to piss me off. Continue with failed policies because "I just know" it's the right thing to do. Be the first to jump when someone suggests a course of action that doesn't "feel good" but which seems to work in the real world, but have no alternative suggestions.
A bit like how in the UK the cause of all traffic accidents must be speed (that's just obvious right, no need to dig any deeper), so let's enforce speed limits like the Third Reich and stick speed cameras everywhere. Now there are even more road deaths - so the solution? More speed cameras! Lower speed limits! And when road deaths continue to rise? We obviously need more speed cameras.
FFS, it's the exact same boneheaded, irrational, faith-based line of thinking that underpins all these leftist policies.

 

[No Limit]

And evidently stopping people from exercising the right to carry their licensed weapons on campus is working really well.
Christ, I really hate to be so cliched, but the liberal way of doing things - everything - is starting to piss me off. Continue with failed policies because "I just know" it's the right thing to do. Be the first to jump when someone suggests a course of action that doesn't "feel good" but which seems to work in the real world, but have no alternative suggestions.
A bit like how in the UK the cause of all traffic accidents must be speed (that's just obvious right, no need to dig any deeper), so let's enforce speed limits like the Third Reich and stick speed cameras everywhere. Now there are even more road deaths - so the solution? More speed cameras! Lower speed limits! And when road deaths continue to rise? We obviously need more speed cameras.
FFS, it's the exact same boneheaded, irrational, faith-based line of thinking that underpins all these leftist policies.

Again, its all the liberals fault. You know what you remind me, homer simposon when he was watching fox news. Not sure if you've seen that episode, I highly recommend it.

Again, the liberals haven't had any real power in this country in over a decade, actually more. If you consider Clinton a liberal you can see his policies actually led to reduced gun violance as the stats a few posts above show. So please stop blaming liberals for everything, it makes you look silly.

 

[repiV]

Again, its all the liberals fault. You know what you remind me, homer simposon when he was watching fox news. Not sure if you've seen that episode, I highly recommend it.

Again, the liberals haven't had any real power in this country in over a decade, actually more. If you consider Clinton a liberal you can see his policies actually led to reduced gun violance as the stats a few posts above show. So please stop blaming liberals for everything, it makes you look silly.

Since when was I blaming liberals for everything? Only for boneheaded, irrational, interventionist politics. Gun control is not a conservative policy and gun control is what we're discussing, so I really don't see what you're getting at.
The fact is, the current policy and policies which follow similar reasoning have been demonstrably failing for decades, there is no link between legitimate gun ownership and gun violence (if anything, higher gun ownership leads to lower crime rates) and yet this evidence means nothing when the ideology of gun control is at stake. Politics of fantasy, not reality - I'm sick of it, it's been wrecking people's lives to suit sheltered middle class sensibilities since time immemorial.
Besides which, any way you swing it, the Bush administration is in no way conservative.

 

[NeptuneUK]

Great now when can I have concealed drugs on campus?

D:

I mean


:S

!

 

[Mr Stabby]

Provided a competency test and some form of psychiatric testing is used to regulate who gets a concealed carry permit, I don't see the problem with it.

 

[No Limit]

Besides which, any way you swing it, the Bush administration is in no way conservative.

Sure. But it certainly isn't liberal.

My point is you throw around the word liberal like its some kind of 4 letter word. Guns in this country aren't a liberal or a conservative problem, they are simply a problem. We need to do something about this and I don't think liberals which want to limit guns to the point where almost nobody will be able to own one are part of the solution nor do I think conservatives that think I should be allowed to mount a .50 cal to my porch are helping us any. And keep in mind this is coming from someone that owns 2 guns. So next time a thread about guns, or speeding, or health care, or welfare, or anything else pops up do us all a favor and not post about how liberals are to blame for it all.

 

[No Limit]

Provided a competency test and some form of psychiatric testing is used to regulate who gets a concealed carry permit, I don't see the problem with it.

That's already the case with the exception of the psychiatric test. However, if a person has any history of psychiatric problems they can not obtain a conceal carry permit.

 

[repiV]

Sure. But it certainly isn't liberal.

Also true.

My point is you throw around the word liberal like its some kind of 4 letter word. Guns in this country aren't a liberal or a conservative problem, they are simply a problem. We need to do something about this and I don't think liberals which want to limit guns to the point where almost nobody will be able to own one are part of the solution nor do I think conservatives that think I should be allowed to mount a .50 cal to my porch are helping us any. And keep in mind this is coming from someone that owns 2 guns. So next time a thread about guns, or speeding, or health care, or welfare, or anything else pops up do us all a favor and not post about how liberals are to blame for it all.

You're missing the point. Liberals are to blame for repeatedly pushing "solutions" generally based on government intervention and enforcement which have been repeatedly proven not to work. The mindset stems from viewing the world as they wish it were and not as it is.
Often the best solution is just to leave everything the **** alone and let people sort things out for themselves, but everyone these days has to stick their goddamn nose into everything which doesn't concern them and also which they are completely ignorant of.
Like right here - people are insisting that allowing CCW on campus must be a terrible idea, but they have nothing but their own preconceived notions to back that up.
I use the term "liberals" because it's short and sweet, and in modern context people should generally understand what I mean. If you would prefer I could say nosey interfering risk-averse whiny little nanny state bitches who are terrified of living in the real world instead. I don't think anyone can really disagree that the modern trend of legislating the fun, freedom and individual responsibility out of everything stems entirely from leftist thinking. If they keep on getting their way indefinitely, we'll end up in a nice, safe world where everyone lives identical sanitised lives and eventually committs suicide because life is so deathly uninteresting.

 

[xcellerate]

Like right here - people are insisting that allowing CCW on campus must be a terrible idea, but they have nothing but their own preconceived notions to back that up.

Are you saying that if we increased guns on campus, crimes involving guns on campus would NOT increase?

 

[Pesmerga]

Bodycounts might go down. More heroes would be made.

 

[Druckles]

Holy Crap. This can't be legal.

 

[Eejit]

I will make it legal!

/Sidious

 

[repiV]

Are you saying that if we increased guns on campus, crimes involving guns on campus would NOT increase?

No, I'm saying that if people who were legally allowed to carry guns anywhere else were also allowed to carry them on campus, crimes involving guns on campus would decrease, and these incidents of mass murder would more than likely disappear completely.
There is no logical reason why CCW rights should be arbitrarily suspended on a university campus, and it's downright stupid to use the "PLZ THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!" argument because your humanitarian crisis is already here, and the tired old gun control "solution" isn't working at all.

 

[Eejit]

You fail to take into accout ch-ch-ch-chain reactions as I outlined on the first page.

 

[99.vikram]

Like right here - people are insisting that allowing CCW on campus must be a terrible idea, but they have nothing but their own preconceived notions to back that up.

In contrast with your extensive experience with gun crime?

I don't think anyone can really disagree that the modern trend of legislating the fun, freedom and individual responsibility out of everything stems entirely from leftist thinking.

Funny, considering the right wing has had more political clout in recent years.

If you would prefer I could say nosey interfering risk-averse whiny little nanny state bitches who are terrified of living in the real world instead
.....
If they keep on getting their way indefinitely, we'll end up in a nice, safe world where everyone lives identical sanitised lives and eventually committs suicide because life is so deathly uninteresting.

You're being an as*hole by reducing complex debates into simplistic 'smart people vs. stupid people' arguments.

EDIT: Ok now I'm confused. Who puts individual freedoms over government? Liberals or conservatives?

 

[repiV]

You fail to take into accout ch-ch-ch-chain reactions as I outlined on the first page.

I don't realistically envisage any situation where a dozen students would end up indiscriminately shooting each other, it's not like a first person shooter where everyone walks around with a gun drawn. And you've provided no evidence to suggest that would be a likely eventuality.
What alternative solution do you propose?