Concealed weapons on campus?

[Mr Stabby]

Criminal punishment isn't the same as a gun. A criminal could be convinced that once he has committed a crime he won't leave any evidence and won't get caught, but may well be deterred by the prospect of getting shot while committing the crime.

I think the nuclear deterrent works, neither the USA or the USSR would have dared escalate the Cuban missile crisis, due to the prospect of nuclear annihilation.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Well, to use your own point, total eradication of civilian populations is a rather different proposition from an armed citizenry.

Perhaps carry laws are a far better deterrent than, say, hanging, but they are still not going to dissuade criminals who believe they won't be caught in the act / believe they can out-shoot opponents / believe nobody will shoot a gun at them and kill them. In any case, I believe I'd be right in saying the main firearm based threat on campuses is school shootings, and I believe I'd be right in further claiming that these tend to follow a certain pattern and that it is not one in which deterrent will be of any use.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Well, to use your own point, total eradication of civilian populations is a rather different proposition from an armed citizenry.

Perhaps carry laws are a far better deterrent than, say, hanging, but they are still not going to dissuade criminals who believe they won't be caught in the act / believe they can out-shoot opponents / believe nobody will shoot a gun at them and kill them. In any case, I believe I'd be right in saying the main firearm based threat on campuses is school shootings, and I believe I'd be right in further claiming that these tend to follow a certain pattern and that it is not one in which deterrent will be of any use.

I'm not a psychologist but I've read that the typical school shooter has a power trip that they have power (a gun) and there victims are unarmed and therefore helpless. If there was a prospect of armed students, then the balance of power would be equal. They also tend to shoot themselves rather than be killed by/fight with the police, maybe suggesting that they don't like the prospect of being killed by someone else, as they believing they are making a point with their actions.

Though it's not really relevant, I think airline pilots should also have the possibility of being armed, as a deterrent against hijackings.

 

[CptStern]

I think the suicide at the end is more about ritual: the revenge/violence is done only one final act remains


anyways as a parent I wouldnt send my kids to a school where there's a certainty a segment of the students are armed on the off-chance there might be school shooting ..I mean that list represts over 40 years and it's barely more than a few dozen incidents ...do we really want to give opportunty to up that number by making it easier for someone to walk into a school and start shooting? ..what if the intended target is a single person? I have a permit to carry, I catch my girlfriend cheating with some guy in my math class? I have the means: a concealed weapon, I have a motivation "bitch done cheated on me" and now the school is the facilitator in helping me legally carry my instrument of revenge. In the case of an armed student body I run the risk of being shot to death (as well as innocent bystanders) once I kill the dude who slept with my girlfriend, perhaps I may fire back and since everybody is armed I might as well escalate it and KILL ****ING EVERYONES!!! ..sure it's just a speculative scenario but it illustrates how allowing something almost creates the circumstances it wishes to prevent

 

[xcellerate]

I'm really more worried about the drunkenness factor.

I mean I went to a party over xmas break and some guy brought his gun in (concealed of course, nobody knew he had it till later). After a few hours and a couple of drinks he's brandishing the gun and everybody is taking turns holding it while everybody takes pictures for facebook/myspace/whatever. People end up point the gun at each others heads to pretend like they're holding them hostage.

Well I eventually get the gun and I drop the clip and low and behold...it was a full clip. yay for below average intelligence!!



and just last week we had 4 students dressed in military fatiques run into our cafeteria during lunch time, using their HANDS as weapons. They were just playing around, they all enter and the guy in front goes, "FLANK LEFT!" and two people break off and run left, somebody else says, "COVER ME! I SEE HIM!" and they hide behind the drink machine...it was just people being stupid, groups have done stuff like this before.

Well apparently people thought it was real and called the POLICE. Cop cars all rolled up and now the guys are being threatened with expulsion for pretending like their HANDS were guns.

If people thought it was serious enough to call the cops, would they think it was serious enough to use their weapons?

 

[Saturos]

I don't see the problem with school authorities and teachers carrying guns as long as there are complete gun-safety certification courses and psychiatric examinations in place.

I guess a disgruntled, underpaid teacher can go nuts just as any student can though, but everyone having a concealed weapon makes me a bit nervous, as I don't trust most people.

I thought having a concealed weapon was illegal period in the U.S. to begin with though?

 

[Cormeh]

Where did I say they did?

The debate's about guns, not burglary, so it was a stupid comparison.

 

[Mr Stabby]

The debate's about guns, not burglary, so it was a stupid comparison.

It was an analogy to show the flaw in your argument.

 

[Daggett]

rofl
worst idea i have ever heard.

 

[Cormeh]

It was an analogy to show the flaw in your argument.

There was no flaw in my argument, you took it entirely out of context by putting words into my mouth. In other words, no decent reply.

 

[Mr Stabby]

You said

I'd bet you anything the next murderous gun wielding maniac would simply say "oh, the kids in this school are packing, I'll just go and shoot up a shopping centre or primary school or SOMEWHERE I CAN KILL PEOPLE FOR AS LONG AS I CAN MANAGE"

So there is no point deterring a shooting from a university as the shooter will just go somewhere else. Which is the like saying there is no point in deterring a burglar from your home, as they will just go somewhere else.

 

[Cormeh]

That's entirely out of context. A rampaging shooter and a burglar are two different beasts entirely.

I recall the last attempt to deter a burglar in Britain didn't end so well.

By that analogy you're comparing lives to possessions.

 

[Mr Stabby]

It's not out of context both are crimes. Your argument was that a crime shouldn't be deterred from one place as it will happen elsewhere.

To say that a shooter shouldn't be deterred from a university as they will just go on a rampage elsewhere is just stupid.

Tony Martin wasn't deterring a burglar he actually shot them.

 

[Cormeh]

To say that a shooter shouldn't be deterred from a university as they will just go on a rampage elsewhere is just stupid

This isn't what I'm implying, and the answer certainly isn't to arm everyone in the vicinity.

My point is about deterring this sort of crap by discouraging guns, not protect one institute for the sake of another.

 

[Mr Stabby]

This isn't what I'm implying, and the answer certainly isn't to arm everyone in the vicinity.

Well you did say

I'd bet you anything the next murderous gun wielding maniac would simply say "oh, the kids in this school are packing, I'll just go and shoot up a shopping centre or primary school or SOMEWHERE I CAN KILL PEOPLE FOR AS LONG AS I CAN MANAGE"

I don't think anyone is claiming that every student should be armed. I am against the notion that a blanket ban of the possibility of students carrying guns, based on the assumption they are all incompetent or insane. There are instances in which armed students have stopped a shooter ->Appalachian School of Law shooting.

My point is about deterring this sort of crap by discouraging guns, not protect one institute for the sake of another.

If one institution has a deterrent it's not in anyway their fault if the shooter targets someone else.

Discouraging guns doesn't always work. Especially in America there is already a huge volume of guns, so if guns were outlawed tomorrow people who really wanted one could get one. You can get a gun in London but the UK has strict gun laws.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Jesus Christ.

Students and teachers bringing guns to school?

Bringing instruments of death to a place of learning.

Just...

Jesus Christ, you guys. This isn't ****ing brain surgery.

 

[Druckles]

instruments of death

It just sounds so much more awesome when you say it.

 

[repiV]

Jesus Christ.

Students and teachers bringing guns to school?

Bringing instruments of death to a place of learning.

Just...

Jesus Christ, you guys. This isn't ****ing brain surgery.

Using emotive language and the unsupported assumption that you are obviously correct doesn't make your argument any more valid or logical.

 

[Jintor]

I'm so bloody tempted to use various logical fallacies right now.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Using emotive language and the unsupported assumption that you are obviously correct doesn't make your argument any more valid or logical.

Nor does rabbiting on about liberals ruining everything and arguing as though the ends need only justify the means. This would have far greater implications than just making schools "safer" or "less safe", but I hoped that much was obvious.

You can call it a "think of the chillens!" response as much as you like because... well, frankly it is (well, college age chillens anywho). I'm thinking of the chillens' right to go to school without fear, something I severely doubt more weapons - in the hands of their peers no less - is going to achieve.

Nor is arming the larger student/teacher body going to be any more efficient than leaving it to professionals. You simply cannot expect that the average joe with a gun is going to react calmly and rationally in a tense situation like a school shooting. It's begging for accidents to happen - probably to the person with the gun. How hard would it be for multiple people with guns to confuse one another for the killer in the heat of the moment? There are just far too many ways that this could extrenuate circumstances for it to be a good move.

Anyway, just saying that you've 'lowered body counts' so therefore FISSION MACCOMPLISHED is nowhere near justifying this sort of move, you have to consider the greater implications. Just look at Stern's post - how many parents are going to be willing to send their kids to a school where anyone could be packing heat? Oh, and has anyone even considered the wicked turn bullying could take with this, even if the guns weren't actually used? The reverse is also true - Billy is threatened by some jock on a power trip, so what does he do? He goes home and gets a gun, just to be safe. Where does that sort of situation end?

Where does any of it end?

 

[bbson john]

Immature minds + guns = deaths







A: I am in love with Sandy.

B: What? You stole my girlfriend? Damn You!!!!

[BANG]

A: *Dead*

 

[CptStern]

There are instances in which armed students have stopped a shooter ->Appalachian School of Law shooting.

this story is time and again inaccurately used by gun proponents ..they always omit this part of the story (I'm not saying you do, just the nra types)

According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms.[8] Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[9] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, N.C.,[10] pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe.

both were police officers ..they can hardly be called "normal" students

 

[Druckles]

this story is time and again inaccurately used by gun proponents ..they always omit this part of the story (I'm not saying you do, just the nra types)



both were police officers ..they can hardly be called "normal" students

You've been waiting all day to get in on the action, haven't you :/

 

[CptStern]

nah I was having too much fun watching people lose their minds in my thread :E

 

[Sulkdodds]

Where does any of it end?

Let's be fair. People are only talking about applying the same concealed carry rights to colleges as those that are already in place in ordinary life, on the streets, in the suburbs, in town. It's a bit strange to talk about hypothetical bullies and victims when the very same rules already exist in other places, where drunken fights, bullying and unstable/unequal power relationships are just as likely to develop or erupt. It's not as if all 10-year old kids are going to be forced to carry handguns. It is simply the extension of existing permissions into new areas.

 

[Mr Stabby]

this story is time and again inaccurately used by gun proponents ..they always omit this part of the story (I'm not saying you do, just the nra types)



both were police officers ..they can hardly be called "normal" students

Well I personally think to be allowed a concealed carry permit, should require some from of a training course. I don't think police gun training is beyond the bounds of most people.

 

[Seppo]

Even my friends, when we go shooting, don't know how to properly handle a firearm. One of them even put my loaded, and chambered, pistol to his head in jest, but it was supposed to be okay because the safety was on.

your friend's a future darwin award candidate.

 

[xcellerate]

your friend's a future darwin award candidate.

believe me I'm quite aware. The most shocking part of it all was he went to military school...I would have thought they taught him some sort of safety there...

 

[Druckles]

believe me I'm quite aware. The most shocking part of it all was he went to military school...I would have thought they taught him some sort of safety there...

That's probably why he thinks it's ok :/

 

[Bad^Hat]

Let's be fair. People are only talking about applying the same concealed carry rights to colleges as those that are already in place in ordinary life, on the streets, in the suburbs, in town. It's a bit strange to talk about hypothetical bullies and victims when the very same rules already exist in other places, where drunken fights, bullying and unstable/unequal power relationships are just as likely to develop or erupt. It's not as if all 10-year old kids are going to be forced to carry handguns. It is simply the extension of existing permissions into new areas.

Fair enough. It's hard for me to comment accurately on this sort of thing coming from somewhere where gun crime is basically nil. I just saw it as the typical knee-jerk response of "more weapons = SAFER" and reacted in kind. I still don't think it's a good idea, but as I can't seem to put my thoughts down in any kind of intelligent way, I'll probably leave it at that.

Hah, did I actually say "where will it end?" though? Shit, I can't post in these debates without my line of thought devolving into sensationalist garbage.

Oh look, a penny.