concealed weapons permit - discussion

[VirusType2]

This blog sums up my take on the topic:

"
GET YOUR GUN
Laws don't stop killers. People with guns do.

As previously discussed on the blog, 4 of us had quite the intense argument over gun control the other day at the office.

I brought up the fact that the fatal shootings at Virginia Tech, Columbine, and Northern Illinois could have been lessened had someone like a teacher or student pulled out their own gun and either shot the assailant or scared the shit out of them.

Case and point:

At the Appalachian Law School, Peter Odighizuwa killed 3 people with a hand gun. Two students carrying personal firearms approached him. Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms. Odighizuwa was sentenced to multiple life terms in prison plus 28 additional years.

In Pearl, Miss, Luke Woodham slit his mom's throat and then went to school with a gun. He killed 2 classmates and wounded 7 others. Then the school's vice principal held a .45 caliber pistol to his head. "Here was this monster killing kids in my school, and the minute I put a gun to his head he was a kid again," the vice principal said. Woodham was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences.

Killed 3 people before having a gun put to his head.
Now serving 2 life sentences on our terms.

At Virginia Tech, 33 people were killed and 29 injured. This means the bastard reloaded again, again, and again. At Virginia Tech, guns are banned on campus; even with a concealed weapons license. Graduate student Bradford Wiles has a permit to carry a gun in Virginia, but is not allowed to bring it to campus. "Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness. That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself."

At Virginia Tech, he killed 33 people on his terms.



Look at the numbers. They speak for themselves. If anyone can show me an example of a public shooting getting worse because a citizen pulled a gun on the assailant or that more people died because a citizen blew the assailant's brains out, then please do forward it to me.

Because right now, it all seems pretty obvious.

And for those who have argued (and they have, believe me) that the victims of Virginia Tech, etc should have just "hidden better" or "thrown something at the assailant and then tackled him" or "learned karate and disarmed him with their hands" or just "ran away", here's another news story for you from today:

Two killed in shooting at Wendy's near West Palm Beach

One of those killed was a father and local firefighter who had gone back in the Wendy's to retrieve his son's forgotten toy. He was shot in the brain at point blank range and died instantly. 7 people were shot in total. The killer reloaded once and then shot himself. He died on his terms.

But I gotta tell you, if I had been there enjoying Wendy's Dollar Menu, he would have died on my terms. "

 

[kineaesth]

Ehhhhh. How about everyone doesn't shoot each other? I dunno, bro. If we could make all the sensible people be allowed to carry guns, I'd be sweet.

 

[Jintor]

The problem is that if everybody gets guns, well, everybody gets guns.

 

[CptStern]

This blog sums up my take on the topic:

"
GET YOUR GUN
Laws don't stop killers. People with guns do.

As previously discussed on the blog, 4 of us had quite the intense argument over gun control the other day at the office.

I brought up the fact that the fatal shootings at Virginia Tech, Columbine, and Northern Illinois could have been lessened had someone like a teacher or student pulled out their own gun and either shot the assailant or scared the shit out of them.

Case and point:

At the Appalachian Law School, Peter Odighizuwa killed 3 people with a hand gun. Two students carrying personal firearms approached him.

full stop for disclosure's sakes ..ok this story is repeatedly cited by gun advocates as an example of how armed students saved the school from a bloodbath but what they fail to mention is that those two students were actually POLICE OFFICERS

According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms.[6] Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[7] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, N.C.,[8] pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe.

In Pearl, Miss, Luke Woodham slit his mom's throat and then went to school with a gun. He killed 2 classmates and wounded 7 others. Then the school's vice principal held a .45 caliber pistol to his head. "Here was this monster killing kids in my school, and the minute I put a gun to his head he was a kid again," the vice principal said. Woodham was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences.

the facts do not support the notion that an armed civilian saved the school from a bloodbath, he just stopped him from getting away/killing somone else somewhere else, a police officer could have done the same thing:

He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham while he was trying to drive off campus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Woodham#October_1:_Shooting_at_Pearl_High_School

At Virginia Tech, 33 people were killed and 29 injured. This means the bastard reloaded again, again, and again. At Virginia Tech, guns are banned on campus; even with a concealed weapons license. Graduate student Bradford Wiles has a permit to carry a gun in Virginia, but is not allowed to bring it to campus. "Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness. That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself."

At Virginia Tech, he killed 33 people on his terms.

Look at the numbers. They speak for themselves. If anyone can show me an example of a public shooting getting worse because a citizen pulled a gun on the assailant or that more people died because a citizen blew the assailant's brains out, then please do forward it to me.

Because right now, it all seems pretty obvious.

so long as you spin facts to support your contentious argument then yes ..there is no evidence an armed student would have been of any help, it's just as speculative and valid to say armed students would have made the situation worse or if the teachers had been carrying attack dogs that when they bark bees come out of their mouths wouldnt have stopped the bloodbath

And for those who have argued (and they have, believe me) that the victims of Virginia Tech, etc should have just "hidden better" or "thrown something at the assailant and then tackled him" or "learned karate and disarmed him with their hands" or just "ran away", here's another news story for you from today:

Two killed in shooting at Wendy's near West Palm Beach

One of those killed was a father and local firefighter who had gone back in the Wendy's to retrieve his son's forgotten toy. He was shot in the brain at point blank range and died instantly. 7 people were shot in total. The killer reloaded once and then shot himself. He died on his terms.

But I gotta tell you, if I had been there enjoying Wendy's Dollar Menu, he would have died on my terms. "

:upstare: alarmist nonsense and rambo-esque fantasy wish fullfillment ..how many police officers every year are shot and killed during a shooting? they're far more trained, prepared and disciplined than the average gun toting citizen cum vigilante

 

[Dodo]

no guns = win.
Any other option is a fail, a dailed fail or just not a win.
Make love, not war.
<3
Go Holland.

-dodo

 

[jverne]

nah...giving everyone the right to carry arms is stupid.
a much better solution would be if only i was allowed to carry one and nobody else.






:thumbs:

 

[VirusType2]

..how many police officers every year are shot and killed during a shooting? they're far more trained, prepared and disciplined than the average gun toting citizen cum vigilante

nice digging.

are you aware though, that off duty police officers and other types of law enforcement need concealed carry permits as well - in order to carry weapons when off duty?



Jverne, I'm not aware of all the details, but just to own a gun there is a background check.

To get a weapons carry license you need to meet other criteria - for example, my brother in law has one. He is a security officer at an airport - homeland security. Not just anyone can carry a concealed weapon.

so long as you spin facts to support your contentious argument then yes ..there is no evidence an armed student would have been of any help, it's just as speculative and valid to say armed students would have made the situation worse or if the teachers had been carrying attack dogs that when they bark bees come out of their mouths wouldnt have stopped the bloodbath

doesn't this part of the blog prove that armed civilians can stop it?

Case and point:

At the Appalachian Law School, Peter Odighizuwa killed 3 people with a hand gun. Two students carrying personal firearms approached him. Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms. Odighizuwa was sentenced to multiple life terms in prison plus 28 additional years.

In Pearl, Miss, Luke Woodham slit his mom's throat and then went to school with a gun. He killed 2 classmates and wounded 7 others. Then the school's vice principal held a .45 caliber pistol to his head. "Here was this monster killing kids in my school, and the minute I put a gun to his head he was a kid again," the vice principal said. Woodham was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences.

Killed 3 people before having a gun put to his head.
Now serving 2 life sentences on our terms.

 

[RyanG]

I brought up the fact that the fatal shootings at Virginia Tech, Columbine, and Northern Illinois could have been lessened had someone like a teacher or student pulled out their own gun and either shot the assailant or scared the shit out of them.

I heard from a friend that there were even civilians outside the campus with concealed carries that want to take the bastard out but the police wouldn't let them go in (meanwhile, whats-his-name was inside picking off anybody he liked with nobody to stop him).

Gun control is almost hypocritical in this regard. People who wouldn't be using them to murder people would give them up, while criminals and murders are going to get them one way or another.

More guns = less crime. Sometimes you don't have time to wait 15 minutes for the police to show up. I have no problem with there being police - in fact, I think that the majority of police officers are good people, but I'm not about to give up my right to personal protection in their favor.

EDIT: On another note, I believe that "gun-free campuses" are completely unconstitutional.

 

[Darkside55]

Praise the gunman who shot people eating at Wendy's.

Wendy's is ****ing disgusting, and if you enjoy eating there you are some kind of taste-deficient monster. You deserve a bullet to the head, and I oppose anyone who would shoot a man who shot people for eating at Wendy's.

 

[RyanG]

Praise the gunman who shot people eating at Wendy's.

Wendy's is ****ing disgusting, and if you enjoy eating there you are some kind of taste-deficient monster. You deserve a bullet to the head, and I oppose anyone who would shoot a man who shot people for eating at Wendy's.

My friend says that he got a couple burgers to-go at Wendy's and by the time he finished driving home the lower half of the bag was translucent.

First and last time he ate there.

 

[CptStern]

nice digging.

are you aware though, that off duty police officers and other types of law enforcement need concealed carry permits as well - in order to carry weapons when off duty?

not really true, this is given as default to every police officer across the US:

In 2004, the United States Congress enacted the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, 18 U.S. Code 926B and 926C. This federal law allows two classes of persons ? the "qualified law enforcement officer" and the "qualified retired law enforcement officer" ? to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of any state or local law to the contrary, with certain exceptions.

doesn't this part of the blog prove that armed civilians can stop it?

no it doesnt because the two people in question were not civilians they're police officers

 

[Rizzo]

I carry wepons, I don't have any damn permits. No handguns thou, but anyway, I whouldn't be cought with it unless I had to use it, and if I did use it, I probably had a reason to.

So, Jail/Fines/Nothing>Death.

 

[Dodo]

I carry wepons, I don't have any damn permits. No handguns thou, but anyway, I whouldn't be cought with it unless I had to use it, and if I did use it, I probably had a reason to.

So, Jail/Fines/Nothing>Death.

wat?
You carry a knife ? shurikens ? a big purple rubber dildo ? explain.

-dodo

 

[Rizzo]

Katanas bitch.

Palm stick, batons and dildos. I have lots of knifes, but I don't bring them with me anymore. Actually made me feel more uncomfterble.

 

[Kase]

wat?
You carry a knife ? shurikens ? a big purple rubber dildo ? explain.

-dodo

you dont need to say dodo after everything you post we can see your name btw

and i am against selling guns to the public in the first palce

 

[lefty]

you don't need to keep posting, we already know you're a dumbass.

full stop for disclosure's sakes ..ok this story is repeatedly cited by gun advocates as an example of how armed students saved the school from a bloodbath but what they fail to mention is that those two students were actually POLICE OFFICERS

the facts do not support the notion that an armed civilian saved the school from a bloodbath, he just stopped him from getting away/killing somone else somewhere else, a police officer could have done the same thing:

But we'd be lucky if they didn't beat a few ******s on the way over there, right?

 

[Tagaziel]

I wanted to reply, but then I noticed that OP is American.

Reasonable gun debate is impossible with any gun-owning American.

 

[CptStern]

you don't need to keep posting, we already know you're a dumbass.

who are you referring to?

But we'd be lucky if they didn't beat a few ******s on the way over there, right?

that's what tazers are for; incapacitate them so you can administer beatings at your leisure

 

[Tyguy]

I would not feel any safer knowing that my classmates were armed. That's a recipe for disaster. What happens the first time when a student accidentally kills a classmate?

I know it seems like a solution, but it invites more problems then it solves. The best thing universities can do is to implement some kind of physical security standard.

 

[CptStern]

I'm sorry but there's no way I'd feel safer knowing the guy next to me is armed ..he can trained up the wazoo but they cant train stupid out of somone and I dont like taking my chances with stupid

 

[VirusType2]

who are you referring to?

he was talking to Kase

that's what tazers are for; incapacitate them so you can administer beatings at your leisure

****in lol

I'm sorry but there's no way I'd feel safer knowing the guy next to me is armed ..he can trained up the wazoo but they cant train stupid out of somone and I dont like taking my chances with stupid

I would not feel any safer knowing that my classmates were armed. That's a recipe for disaster. What happens the first time when a student accidentally kills a classmate?

this is the same reason I hear time and time again. People aren't time bombs, just waiting to go off.

Ask yourself, would you suddenly freak out in the middle of class and start killing people?

You take a chance that people know what they are doing every time you drive in traffic, and a much bigger risk.


I agree with you a bit about being a point of worry, but I think accidents/innocents will be very very rare.

 

[PvtRyan]

Hey yeah, great idea. Lets scare off the completely deranged, suicidal, homicidal maniac with guns. I'm sure you'll find that to be very effective.

Besides, know what's the problem with school shootings? The fact that students can't kill the attacker you say? No. The fact that they happen at all. There's your problem, fix that.

I don't want to live in a society where everyone is strapped because they're scared shitless of each other. If the price for that is a few school shootings now and then, so be it.

 

[Eejit]

I wanted to reply, but then I noticed that OP is American.

Reasonable gun debate is impossible with any gun-owning American.

Any disagreement with them is a personal attack AND YOU'RE TRYING TO TAKE THEIR RIGHTS AWAY LIKE HITLER!!

 

[CptStern]

this is the same reason I hear time and time again. People aren't time bombs, just waiting to go off.

Ask yourself, would you suddenly freak out in the middle of class and start killing people?

You take a chance that people know what they are doing every time you drive in traffic, and a much bigger risk.


I agree with you a bit about being a point of worry, but I think accidents/innocents will be very very rare.

it's not that the person will all of the sudden start shooting willynilly ...well they would if they were planning on a shooting spree because now they dont even have to hide the fact that they're packing, they have a PERMIT that allows them to ..it's more the fact that I cant trust the person next to me to do the right thing even in the most mundane of tasks, with guns it's even more pronounced. they can also escalate a situation, they could accidentily shoot the wrong person (a dozen kids carrying guns in response to a single shooter ..who are you going to shoot first?) they have absolutely no skllls in negotiating crisis prevention, they have absolutely no compulsion to save anybody but themselves ..if it means emptying a clip at the perp who might be standing next to a few bystanders so be it, not their responsibility to save other people. they are in no way qualified to protect anybody including themselves much less become judge jury and executioner

 

[Tyguy]

also, what happens on the weekend when everyone is drunk and packing heat?

 

[Kase]

you don't need to keep posting, we already know you're a dumbass.

right back at ya buttercup hehe :imu:

its not my fault i am to uber for you to understand XD lol

 

[jverne]

@SIGbastard

since you're an expert in guns...could you tell me what is the best in other words the most versatile handgun currently made?

 

[Eejit]

 

[jverne]

yes...if you want to squirt semen on small children at the toy department.

 

[MJ12]

Well I carry a knife nearly everywhere I go. They come in handy, opening packages, use as a screwdriver, self defense, stabbing blind people-er I mean...

 

[VirusType2]

Hey yeah, great idea. Lets scare off the completely deranged, suicidal, homicidal maniac with guns. I'm sure you'll find that to be very effective.

Most people don't want to die, whether they are crazy or not, and If they are truly suicidal, a sane person with a gun could stop them from taking other peoples lives.

Besides, know what's the problem with school shootings? The fact that students can't kill the attacker you say? No. The fact that they happen at all. There's your problem, fix that.

homicidal maniacs with guns don't follow laws. They bring a gun to school or work regardless of laws. In VT, no guns were permitted, yet he brought one anyway.

Even with a physical metal detector on every entrance and a guard or guards there, if someone really wants to kill people, it is by no means a stretch to suggest that he starts his killing right there, taking the guards out and then running wild on a rampage.



Anyhow, I'm not saying this is the only route to solve the problem. In the VT shooting, it seems this guy was a loose cannon that should have been noticed.


I don't have enough information to make a final decision on whether concealed weapons permits are entirely good or not. I am taking the defense of concealed weapons permits because if I didn't, there might not be any debate here due to the knee jerk reaction that citizens carrying guns is a bad idea.



A bit off topic, but I'll say another thing. You don't even hear about people's houses being broken into around here. It doesn't happen because the majority of people living here in this part of Virginia have guns.

You don't break into someones house to steal shit because there is a good chance that you will be shot and killed.

In places where guns/hunting are not prominent, there are much more frequent break ins.

 

[jverne]

Well I carry a knife nearly everywhere I go. They come in handy, opening packages, use as a screwdriver, self defense, stabbing blind people-er I mean...

oh come on, stop hiding in the closet, we all know you use that for raping innocent victims :naughty:

 

[CptStern]

I have carried a gun close to 5 years now. I also carry a small can of pepper spray that's on a clip like a pocket knife. It would be a liability if some drunk wants to fight with you and you have a gun. You can only use it if your life is in danger or you fear that you will be caused serious bodily harm. So you can't just shoot someone that wants to get physical with you. I had an encounter recently that I was able to get out of that made me decide to carry the pepper spray as it could have easily turned out differently.

one has to question why exactly you feel you need that level of protection ..you've had a recent "encounter" which explains the pepper spray, you carry a gun so I'm assuming that was in reaction to another "encounter" ..all in all wouldnt it most prudent to move to an area that isnt likely to produce enounter after encounter after encounter? you're in dental school, you can afford not to live in the projects/means streets of baghdad ..but that doesnt explain the other military firearms you have. I mean you couldnt possibly justify an AR-15 for home defense (outside of bagdhad) so it begs the question as to how much of it is hobby and how much of it is legitimate/paranoid delusional desire for self defense. All in all I dont see what gives you and people like you (and by extension criminals) the right to pose a threat to ordinary people simply out of a desire to protect yourself and because it entertains you (hobby)..seems completely selfish imho

 

[Tyguy]

im by no means anti-gun or anything but you have to consider the likelihood that students carrying guns to class will (in the long run) be a detriment to other students. Im looking at this strictly as a utilitarian would, and in the long run it's absurd to think they would not cause more problems than they fix.

 

[Kase]

whats wrong with good old fashioned Fist's the world is to full of pussys that feel the need to carry Guns/Knifes

 

[Mr Stabby]

Guns don't kill people, people do etc. A person that doen't intend to kill anyone isn't going to harm anyone else by carrying a gun.

 

[VirusType2]

whats wrong with good old fashioned Fist's the world is to full of pussys that feel the need to carry Guns/Knifes

You could say the same thing about dogs or going to church. And just because nothing has happened to you doesn't mean that everyone would have the same fortune.

Besides, isn't that what we are dealing with? Crazy people with guns and knives are the problem.

I'd like to see how your fist measures up against a bullet coming from 100 feet away and traveling at ~7,000 feet per second.

 

[Tyguy]

Guns don't kill people, people do etc. A person that doen't intend to kill anyone isn't going to harm anyone else by carrying a gun.

you're right, it's the other kids who know he's packing heat im worried about. Or the kid who carries a gun without a permit, but since everyone else has a gun, doesn't raise any suspicion.

 

[CptStern]

Guns don't kill people, people do etc. A person that doen't intend to kill anyone isn't going to harm anyone else by carrying a gun.

no never ...ever

http://ansab.newsvine.com/_news/2006/09/24/373331-man-accidentally-kills-neighbor-while-cleaning-gun
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,377861,00.html (this one's for you SIGBastard, even experienced people have oopseys)
http://www.omghalo.com/article/103232/kids-accidentally-kills-self-recreating-halo/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...MoD-soldier-accidentally-killed-gun-Iraq.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060509/ai_n16351231
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...cops_gun_accidentally_fires_kills_driver.html
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/17538683/detail.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x149417
http://www.financialexpress.com/old/ie/daily/19990514/ige14007.html



this last one is awesome:

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-...es-killing-student-in-Faizabad-school/218767/

Faizabad, September 19 In trigger-happy Uttar Pradesh, the rising trend of gun-toting teachers claimed a life today.

In Garauli, Faizabad district, 16-year-old Sunita, student of Class IX at Shahid Ahmad Inter College, died on Tuesday as her headmaster?s gun misfired.

Raghuraj Pratap Singh had forgotten to unload the double-barrelled gun, which he had loaded the day before. In the social science class, he had kept it on a bench, with the barrels pointed at the students.

 

[Druckles]

Don't shoot me, bro!