Cons of the Source

With Quake you have an open source engine..... with HL2 you wont have open source access.... then again maybe you dont need it and it could be modded.

One thing i noticed the Lab videos is that the scanners look like they hit the building and stop... then jerk around outside as if they have path finding problems.
 
Dr.Sbaitso, the modders for the Quake engine had access to the rendering part of the engine. In Half-Life 1 mod teams only had access to the client and server engines, which severly limited their ability to add new rendering techniques like bump mapping.

I doubt they would release the rendering engine for HL2 to modders, instead you have to liscense the entire source engine in order to gain access to the renderer. The Quake engine used to cost around $100,000 when it was first licensed. (I believe its free now.) Imagine what Source would cost!
 
heh i see that too lol morons

EDIT: ^
One thing i noticed the Lab videos is that the scanners look like they hit the building and stop... then jerk around outside as if they have path finding problems.
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Other than what you said... from the E3 footage their seems to be no A.I. on the combine soldiers.... they just stand still all the time while shooting & reloading.

However this could be done away with already for when the final game comes, we'll see...

Originally posted by Dr.Sbaitso
Actually i think someone could do a mod for the game to add lighting ala Doom III, as i have seen a mod for the original Quake that adds Doom III technology like lighting and bump mapping, it is pretty crazy, someone could do it i think.

http://tenebrae.sourceforge.net/
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Doom 3 uses Normal mapping, not bumpmapping.
 
Originally posted by guinny
Well, we all know the AMAZING things source can do, now let's name the cons of Source, after all, nothings perfect ;)

The ones that come to mind for me so far are:

1. Lighting isn't fully dynamic.
2. Appears to be clipping issues.
3. Water is not real-time nor dynamic, thus if you shot a barrell with water in it, the water would remain in the barell.
4. Jaggies, appears as though AA doesn't work with it.
5. A.I seem to not go for cover, from what we've seen they reload right in front of Gordon.

Anyone else think of any others?
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1. If static shadows on objects provid very much the same (if not the same) effect as fully dynamic shadows, then why not use static shadows and save some CPU power for other things? If they can have static shadows cast lines across players/objects the same way dynamic shadows can, then you’ve got basically the same effect.

Trust in Valve is important, they are very aware of what’s good and what works.

2. Any examples of clipping issues seem to be from old screenshots therefore old builds of the Source engine. Because of that, it’s very likely that it’s either been fixed, or is going to be fixed. I believe Gabe has already said before that clipping is on their list of things to be addressed.

3. You can’t have EVERYTHING you want. Real-time dynamic water is from all accounts a big resource hog, and really isn’t necessary for Half-Life to be a good game. I personally don’t think this is a big deal.

4. It’s promising that this will at least be fixed with Ati cards. The game still looks great without AA though.

5. It’s been almost unanimously agreed that the A.I. was either not fully on in the demo’s, or not on at all.

You’re picking out most of the flaws that seem to be because of incomplete development. You should focus on things that don’t look likely to be fixed. One way or another though, the engine still looks stunning and the game looks very good. Nothing major to complain about in my opinion.

Here are a few cons I noticed that I’ll mention anyway:

1. Underwater view should be more distorted. They’re using a sort of volumetric fog effect for underwater right now, but it only really effects long distance view. This ultimately is hardly a big deal though.

2. Lip-syncing doesn’t always look as good as it could. I sometimes think they almost should have designed the syncing manually for the speech in the game, then used the syncing on the fly technology for multiplayer. But again, not that big of a deal. It still looks really good.

3. When wooden objects like boxes are blown apart, it doesn’t look like there’s enough wooden remains to make up that object again. I noticed in one of the E3 video’s that when a box gets hit and breaks, it doesn’t seem like there’s enough wooden shards left over to make up that box again. Just a pointless little thing that I’d like to see changed.

4. Dust clouds and water spray seems to dissipate too quickly. A good example is in the one E3 video with the flying robot (thing) that when it shoots the ground the dust flies up then disappears very quickly. Again not a big deal, but the little things count.
 
Static shadows do not produce the same effect as dynamic lighting. That's false.

Half-Life 2 has some dynamic lighting, but not all. Otherwise if you moved a box or something it would just leave the shadow in the same place (even if you moved the box).

Originally posted by SpuD
ALSO:
This engine is still better than any other game, ofcourse its going to have a few problems, but it still kicks ass.
Click to expand...


No it isn't.
 
If you really want dynamic water, have it as a script. AA problems are being stress tested and debugged from the game. Clipping issues are more than likely gone. Lighting, meh, can't have everything. As for con 5, jebus, how many times do we have to tell you? GABE NEWELL said that they disabled alot of the enemy AI to show the AI of your comrades, and he said they would normally do those things ingame.
 
GABE NEWELL said that they disabled alot of the enemy AI to show the AI of your comrades
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where was this ever said? but i belive u there where way smarter in city traps that seem like the way they should of been.
 
Hell, if they have any support for dynamic lights you can do a small, entirely dynamic They Hunger type mod.

Really all I care about.
 
Originally posted by 2ltben
If you really want dynamic water, have it as a script. AA problems are being stress tested and debugged from the game. Clipping issues are more than likely gone. Lighting, meh, can't have everything. As for con 5, jebus, how many times do we have to tell you? GABE NEWELL said that they disabled alot of the enemy AI to show the AI of your comrades, and he said they would normally do those things ingame.
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Yeah, Gabe Newell said everything.... :dozey:
 
heh well after u went up the stairs in the house and you nocked over all that stuff...... onto the stairs.... the AI cant get past all? what do u think yes/no i hope they can like it would take time... that would be really gay it they get stuck there.
 
Probably only if is scripted or there's another way around. Not very likely they can move the stuff out of the way. What i want to know is if you have to predefine the areas that can be blocked or else you'll have guys running into whatever you used to block the path ... or worse going through it like its not there.
 
Originally posted by guinny
1. Lighting isn't fully dynamic.
Click to expand...
Source does support dynamic lighting, but for performance and gameplay reasons, Valve has opted to use a combination of pre-rendered and dynamic lighting. I would imagine if someone really wanted to, they could use nothing but dynamic lighting but at a performance loss.
2. Appears to be clipping issues.
Click to expand...
Clipping has only been evident in a single screenshot from an alpha or beta build of Source over 8 months ago. I've not seen evidence of clipping any where else.
3. Water is not real-time nor dynamic, thus if you shot a barrell with water in it, the water would remain in the barell.
Click to expand...
No, the Source engine does not calculate real-time fluid physics, but I can guarentee you no home PC will be able to perform such a complex task in the near future.
4. Jaggies, appears as though AA doesn't work with it.
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It's a DirectX 9 bug that will be fixed for the next generation of DirectX 9 hardware. As far as I know, you can use AA with DirectX 8 cards.
5. A.I seem to not go for cover, from what we've seen they reload right in front of Gordon.
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We've not seen enough of the AI to make this determination. On the other hand, they do engage in real-time problem solving, figuring out alternate ways to get to the player.
Anyone else think of any others?
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Fanboys who can't stop picking apart beta demos is a pretty serious problem.
 
Originally posted by guinny
Well, we all know the AMAZING things source can do, now let's name the cons of Source, after all, nothings perfect ;)

The ones that come to mind for me so far are:

1. Lighting isn't fully dynamic.
2. Appears to be clipping issues.
3. Water is not real-time nor dynamic, thus if you shot a barrell with water in it, the water would remain in the barell.
4. Jaggies, appears as though AA doesn't work with it.
5. A.I seem to not go for cover, from what we've seen they reload right in front of Gordon.

Anyone else think of any others?
Click to expand...

2. Clipping will be fixed in final version been stated many times by valve employees.

5. This is merely a behavior flag that was set just for the e3 demos , they will im 96% sure go for cover when you really play the game.
 
Originally posted by Lifthz
Yeah, Gabe Newell said everything.... :dozey:
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BTW- I dont even think you like Half-Life 2 so I dont know why you hang around here.
 
Hrm... i mad e a thread like this and it got deleted.... after 500+ posts.... why do we need another thread?
 
Originally posted by DimitriPopov
BTW- I dont even think you like Half-Life 2 so I dont know why you hang around here.
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I think you can think whatever you want Mrs. Cleo, however you don't know anything, so you're out of your place.

Sorry, but i'm not a gullable fool to believe everything that everyone states Gabe Newell said this and that.
 
I just want to say somthing, It shall be removed immediately but it is my view.

Lifthz is a prick.

Thankyou.
 
Originally posted by guinny

1. Lighting isn't fully dynamic.
-- but there isn't a huge performance dip like in doom3, and we have soft shadows instead of razor sharp
2. Appears to be clipping issues.
-- where? dont all games have clipping issues?
3. Water is not real-time nor dynamic, thus if you shot a barrell with water in it, the water would remain in the barell.
-- thats not gonna happen in any game for many years. its easy to trick the engine to make it look like it though.
4. Jaggies, appears as though AA doesn't work with it.
-- hopefully theyll get it fixed
5. A.I seem to not go for cover, from what we've seen they reload right in front of Gordon.
-- there might be more advanced AI for more advanced enemies
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Lifthz
I think you can think whatever you want Mrs. Cleo, however you don't know anything, so you're out of your place.

Sorry, but i'm not a gullable fool to believe everything that everyone states Gabe Newell said this and that.
Click to expand...

I notice that you seem to do alot of insulting and only talk about the bad things about HL2. Also Gabe actually DID say that they disabled alot of the AI. As Lobster said you really are being a prick on these forums.
 
Re: Re: Cons of the Source

Originally posted by Mountain Man
Clipping has only been evident in a single screenshot from an alpha or beta build of Source over 8 months ago. I've not seen evidence of clipping any where else.
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There are a few clipping issues in the e3 movie. The wooden planks in the tech demo. The ant lion going through the matress and the beam that falls out of the dumpster onto the combine soldier.
Just lettin you know so you can have a look.
 
Originally posted by guinny

1. Lighting isn't fully dynamic.
2. Appears to be clipping issues.
3. Water is not real-time nor dynamic, thus if you shot a barrell with water in it, the water would remain in the barell.
4. Jaggies, appears as though AA doesn't work with it.
5. A.I seem to not go for cover, from what we've seen they reload right in front of Gordon.
Click to expand...

Its un-fair to point out an engines problems before the first game using it is out. :|

Heh, with the enviroments being used in HL2... Dynamic lighting would be hardcore on the CPU. With a game like Doom 3 with most all enviroments being in small areas its easier on the CPU.

Clipping issues will probably be fixed before its released

I think this was a game thing, not an engine thing, i could be wrong.

Jaggies appeared because AA wasn't on, and it doesn't work well with the way the textures in HL2 were done. Not that big of a problem for me, since I should be able to run the game over 1024x768 anyways, and much higher than that jaggies disappear. And besides the textures in HL2 are the best I've seen.

Again the game wasn't finished, So far the way the AI acted besides when they reloaded was the best AI I've ever seen.
 
Originally posted by Stewy
HL2 will be the newest and best game out. end of story.
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It will be the newest until something else is released. NYFD Firefighters was the newest game for a few days, that doesn't mena it was good.

Best is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I htink the best game was Sid Meir's Civilization II, but people will disagree.


so what was your post trying to accomplish?
 
Originally posted by The Mullinator
I notice that you seem to do alot of insulting and only talk about the bad things about HL2. Also Gabe actually DID say that they disabled alot of the AI. As Lobster said you really are being a prick on these forums.
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Well if I am a prick for being against stupid and biased statements, then I will continue being one.

Also, again, i'm not so gullable to believe what everyone says about Gabe saying this and Gabe saying that, a lot of people could well be pulling stuff from their butthole.

Originally posted by Lobster
I just want to say somthing, It shall be removed immediately but it is my view.

Lifthz is a prick.

Thankyou.
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No, Thank you.

Originally posted by HL2 Stone
whats the differance?
Click to expand...

Normal mapping is capable of producing more detailed details than standard bumpmapping. That's all you have to know. :p
 
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