Couple arrested for spanking son, son lies to police

spanking is detrimental regardless of severity
 
yeah i agree it's totally detrimental dude. damn detrimentalists. ****ing detrimentaling all the time.
 
Look, I can do that too:

http://www.dadi.org/usn_spnk.htm
http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/
http://www.corpun.com/benatar.htm
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?&artid=1118118
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2001/08/24_spank.html

There's a big difference between spanking and flat out child abuse. My view is that moderate spanking should be used in situations where a child would not otherwise listen. It's more or less parental experimentation with what works and what doesn't. If my children turn out to be well behaved to the point where spanking wouldn't be justified, then I probably wouldn't see a need for it. On the other hand, if my children were to sometimes behave in a way where spanking may be a good solution, I'm certainly not against giving them a smack on the butt and going from there.

By the way Stern, one of your links is actually in support of spanking:

http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/Larzelere02.html

The evidence to date supports a conditional sequence model of optimal disciplinary tactics.13 For 2- to 6-year-olds, parents should establish a solid foundation of a positive, loving parent-child relationship. They should emphasize proactive teaching – an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. When misbehavior occurs, they need effective responses, beginning with verbal correction and reasoning. Disciplinary reasoning becomes more effective by itself when backed up periodically with nonphysical punishment. When a 2- to 6-year-old refuses to cooperate with nonphysical punishment, such as time out, it needs to be enforced with something like a two-swat spank to the buttocks. Yes, there are alternatives that work better for a few children all of the time and for all children some of the time. But when spanking is used in this way at these ages, the evidence to date indicates it is effective, especially in getting children to cooperate more with the milder disciplinary tactics. In this way, parents can reduce the need to use spanking at all as the child gets older. Parents need more disciplinary options, not fewer ones. They also need to know optimal strategies for all aspects of discipline. Hopefully future research can build on these two reviews to provide parents with that information.
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I don't care if it "should be used" only that SPANKING IS NOT CHILD ABUSE. I don't care if a parent chooses to or not to spank their children.

Gosh.
 
I'm against spanking so I think that these parents should at least get a large fine.
 
I'm with Stern on this one. My parents never hit me (though they did pour a glass of water over me when I was little :D ), but instead grounded me, cut off pocket money, etc.

And money is nice.
 
Sedako said:
Look, I can do that too:

http://www.dadi.org/usn_spnk.htm
http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/
http://www.corpun.com/benatar.htm
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?&artid=1118118
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2001/08/24_spank.html

There's a big difference between spanking and flat out child abuse. My view is that moderate spanking should be used in situations where a child would not otherwise listen. It's more or less parental experimentation with what works and what doesn't. If my children turn out to be well behaved to the point where spanking wouldn't be justified, then I probably wouldn't see a need for it. On the other hand, if my children were to sometimes behave in a way where spanking may be a good solution, I'm certainly not against giving them a smack on the butt and going from there.

By the way Stern, one of your links is actually in support of spanking:

http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/Larzelere02.html
Click to expand...



try reading the article again, it compares two different viewpoints from two different groups; one is supportive the other is against corporal punishment ..from the same article:

In contrast, Gershoff (2002) concluded, ?Ten of the 11 meta-analyses indicate parental corporal punishment is associated with . . . undesirable behaviors and experiences.
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and back to your sources ..the first is a freelance writer : opinion

the second presents the same viewpoint of Dr Larzelere that was in this link:
http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/Larzelere02.html

so the other viewpoint based on the same criteria cancels each other out


the third link specifically says that only very light corporal punishment is acceptable and that the majority of it's use is excessive or used too frequently


the fourth link is by the same author as the first ..so it's just the same thing in a different package


the next link again says exactly the same: so long as it's used infrequently, so long as it doesnt cause pain it shows no lasting unique detrimental effects ..in other words no new or unique ditrimental effect was seen but that doesnt take into account self worth or any other social behaviour that's much harder to detect ..the author herself says she does not support spanking but rather that a blanket ban isnt warrented so long as certain criteria is met

sedako said:
My view is that moderate spanking should be used in situations where a child would not otherwise listen.
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what are you basing this on? please explain what experience you have in child development that has led you to this conclusion?

as a former teacher mentally handicapped children with behavioural problems and from my experience as a parent I have concluded that spanking or any sort of corporal punishment is humiliating and is more often than not based on the reaction of the parent ..case in point ..my son likes to flop around when I'm putting his pajamas on; he's acting silly and isnt paying attention t what we're doing ..a normal response would be to give him a light smack to get his attention focused (I've seen it done dozens of times) ..however that teaches him absolutely nothing ..there is absolutely no beneficial outcome except that he begins to fear being hit ..that is counter productive to why you smacked him in the first place ...much much more difficult is showing him his behaviour is wrong

my solution would be to say "ok son you're not cooperating, go to the room and put your pjs on and when you're done come back"

his response: "but dad, I'll miss merrie melodies"

my response: "well if you had stayed focused on what we were doing you'd be dressed and watching merrie melodies by now"

his response: "ok" ..goes to room gets changed (I have to go help cuz he has his pants on backwards and cant button up his pj top .we come back but merrie melodies is now half over

"dad it's almost over now"

"well had you stayed focused in the first place we would have watched most of your show"



the very next day ..how long do you think it took to get changed? under 5 minutes ..why? because he saw his actions led to negative consequences (he missed his show) ..now I'll probably have to do that a dozen times to let it sink in but it's better than instant compliance because he fears pain ..I dont want to treat my children like animals who cant understand why they're being hit



in that situation it's far far easier just to smack him once in the butt to get him focused (every single article you posted said exactly the same thing: spanking caused immediate compliance) ....but did he learn anything? ..yes, he did: he'll be spanked if he doesnt do what he's told ..but he doesnt learn why he was spanked beyond that ..his only lesson is that his actions will lead to spanking ..not why it was wrong

ultimately it's up to the parent whether he wants to teach their child through fear intimidation and the threat of pain or through positive reinforcement and disciline by involving him in his own consequence of his actions ..I'd much rather my kids learned that their actions lead to consequences that they themselves initiated rather than to fear my open hand





from one of your articles:

Dad and Mom are no fools: They know their '90s parenting manuals. So when 4-year-old Jason screams, "No!" and darts under the dining room table when it's time to leave Grandma's, Dad patiently crouches down. "Remember, Jason," he says soothingly, "when we talked earlier about leaving?" Jason, scowling, doesn't budge. His mother shifts uneasily and riffles through her mental Rolodex of tips garnered from all those child-rearing books. She offers Jason choices ("Would you like to come out by yourself, or shall I get you?"), then rewards ("I've got a cookie for you to eat in the car"), and finally consequences ("Get out or no Arthur tomorrow!"). Jason retreats further and cries, "I don't want to!" His parents look at each other wearily. Jason is a bright, cheerful child who, like most spirited kids, is gifted at pushing limits. He is often well-behaved, but lately, when his parents ask him to do something, he seems to melt down entirely, screaming and even biting. Now he sticks out his tongue and announces, "I hate you!" His father hauls the tiny tyrant, kicking and flailing, out from under the table. Jason lets loose an earsplitting yell. Dad, red-faced, finally loses it, raising his hand over his son's rear end.
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dad fails right there

he is taking out his frustration out on his son ..utter failure to teach him anything ..except that dad's gonna smack you

I've dealth with this exact situation ..what did I do? I went under the table grabed my son and took him straight to the car ..he didnt get a chance to say goodbye to his grandparents, his cousins or his uncles ..he cried for a good 5 minutes while in the car ..I explained to him what had happened and it has NEVER HAPPENED AGAIN, why? because he sees that his actions had real consequences: "when it's time to leave, it's time to leave, period, end of discussion"

the author then proceeds to explain why spanking is ok ..completely ignoring any other possiblity except smacking your kid ..as a parent/educator/whatever the hell she is she fails: she's pushing an agenda as if it's the only recourse, when it's not, I'm living proof it's not
 
Ever since I saw The Office, ive been a fan of the Spray bottle method.
spr001.jpg
 
And what works for dogs must work for little children!
 
you dont discipline babies, they dont uinderstand
 
Kids who can't take a spanking should be thrust into the abyss.
 
Rapstah said:
The logic going on here seems to be "but I was beat when I was a kid, I have the right to give my kids the same treatment!".
Click to expand...

More like "I acted like a shit and got what I deserved, so the same applies to my own".
 
Krynn72 said:
Thats what they want you to think. They know damn well what they're doing!
Click to expand...

my daughter (around 14 months at the time) came out of the kitchen brandishing a chopping knife similiar to theis:

image2005.jpg




do you think she was trying to tell me something?
 
or is tired of me telling her what to do and is finally doing something about it

actually she often come sout of the kitchen carrying a spoon or a salad fork ..we just didnt think she'd be able to reach the knives ..she brought her stepping stool for the bathroom to use to get the knife ..this all happened in less than a minute
 
WTF Stern? Why isn't she trained to fetch cans of beer from the fridge yet?

EDIT: Oh, not adding much here. But to add to some comments, I wasn't spanked for absolutely everything bad that I did. But when I was pushing and pushing to see how much I could get away with, I would get the "I'll tan your arse boy" threat and that usually done it. Any further and I'd be for it. I do understand the whole "this is gonna hurt me more than you" phrase. My old man had a strict upbringing, but never disciplined me as strictly as his father to him.
 
she used to fetch me a beer, but mom thought it might give the people from Child Services the worng impression

"wha?, she only took a sip"
 
Corporal punishment is absolutely neccessary imo. If father(s) calmly explains why they are about to get whupped before doing so, you can make the child to understand what he/she did wrong. Parents should not spank their child when they are angry. Hard as it is, but the child cannot learn any worldy lessons from the blind anger of senseless beating(s).

Plus, the life lesson to be learned is that the world will not take so kindly to foul, rotten behavior (like the little shit(s) from the OP's article), and the lesson the father teaches them is that for every bad action, there's an equally painful opposite reaction. Better the child gets spanked than waiting for him/her to grow up only to get thrown in the slammer, or worse. Corporal punishment is actually an act of mercy compared to what they will face in the real world when they grow up if they don't learn proper behavior. :p

OR, like I've read somewhere else before, (can't find the link now) , there was one father that made his children spank him when they've done something that many would spank their child for. This father in particular found his three children (two daughters and a son) fighting on day after coming home from work. The father taught them the lesson that for failing to raise them properly, he fails as a father and has failed them, then proceeds to remove his belt and made all three of them lash him him five times each. The children cried profusely, as if this was an even more harsh punishment to beat their own father. His children now are renowned doctors and professors.
 
Saturos said:
Corporal punishment is absolutely neccessary imo. If father(s) calmly explains why they are about to get whupped before doing so, you can make the child to understand what he/she did wrong. Parents should not spank their child when they are angry. Hard as it is, but the child cannot learn any worldy lessons from the blind anger of senseless beating(s).

Plus, the life lesson to be learned is that the world will not take so kindly to foul, rotten behavior, and the lesson the father teaches them is that for every bad action, there's an equally painful opposite reaction. Better the child gets spanked than waiting for him/her to grow up only to get thrown in the slammer, or worse. Corporal punishment is actually an act of mercy compared to what they will face in the real world when they grow up if they don't learn proper behavior. :p

OR, like I've read somewhere else before, (can't find the link now) , there was one father that made his children spank him when they've done something that many would spank their child for. This father in particular found his three children (two daughters and a son) fighting on day after coming home from work. The father taught them the lesson that for failing to raise them properly, he fails as a father and has failed them, then proceeds to remove his belt and made all three of them lash him him times each. The children cried profusely, as if this was an even more harsh punishment to beat their own father. His children now are renowned doctors and professors.
Click to expand...



oh come on ..first of all there's plenty of people here who have said they werent hit bytheir parents and are not "in the slammer" and conversely there's plenty of people here who were and are not proffesors or doctors

suffice it to say you cant really say you'd do this or that until you're actuially faced with it
 
CptStern said:
oh come on ..first of all there's plenty of people here who have said they werent hit bytheir parents and are not "in the slammer" and conversely there's plenty of people here who were and are not proffesors or doctors

suffice it to say you cant really say you'd do this or that until you're actuially faced with it
Click to expand...
Yes, but not every parent has a degree in psychology and knows the mental psycho-babble for every
 scenario and condition, and yes, I personally don't care to learn. :p

I don't have any children, but I've basically been raising my nephew the past couple of years, and yes the saying that goes, "you don't know how you would react until you have kids of your own" definately holds true. ;)

Parents are indeed obligated to discipline their children the way they see fit, and the way they best know how.

Stern, if you can raise your kids up proper without corporal punishment, then more power to ya. ;) Whether it be corporal punishment or not is not what matters as long they get the point across imo. "The world is a cruel place and will not tolerate foul behavior," is the ultimate lesson.
 
Saturos said:
Yes, but not every parent has a degree in psychology and knows the mental psycho-babble for every
 scenario and condition, and yes, I personally don't care to learn. :p
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sorry but you already failed as a parent ..it is in your children's best interests that you learn the proper way of parenting

Saturos said:
I don't have any children, but I've basically been raising my nephew the past couple of years, and yes the saying that goes, "you don't know how you would react until you have kids of your own" definately holds true. ;)
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yes but babysitting and raising your own is two different things altogether ,..you can walk away at the end of the day, I cant

Saturos said:
Parents are indeed obligated to discipline their children the way they see fit, and the way they best know how.
Click to expand...

that's not good enough, parents are obligated (if you can call it that) to provide the best care possible, if that means they have to learn a thing or tow along the way then so be it

Saturos said:
Stern, if you can raise your kids up proper without corporal punishment, then more power to ya. ;) Whether it be corporal punishment or not is not what matters as long they get the point across imo. "The world is a cruel place and will not tolerate foul behavior," is the ultimate lesson.
Click to expand...

hitting them does not instill that into them ..no matter how much you can argue the point ..and really you're trying to correct the behaviour not give them the ultimate lesson that "it's tough out there" ya it is so in that respect you have to teach them to cope, beating it into them isnt helping them understand that the world is tough, you're the parent you're supposed to be modeling the proper behaviour ..all you're really teaching them is that violence is the easiest solution to pretty much every problem
 
At the end of the day Stern, people have a right to do things their own way. There is no evidence to suggest that spanking is harmful, so there is no reason it should be illegal. If you can make do without it, great - but it's your own personal opinion and noone else should be beholden to it.
It is illegal in the UK, along with lots of other forms of discipline which were standard only a few decades ago. Teachers have no authority over their students anymore. Not by coincidence, today's kids are dysfunctional, rude, arrogant, violent, disrespectful ****s.
 
repiV said:
At the end of the day Stern, people have a right to do things their own way.
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no they dont, if that were true we wouldnt prosecute parents who physically abuse their children ..you're assuming ownership of your children therefore they are less than human because they have zero rights

repiV said:
There is no evidence to suggest that spanking is harmful, so there is no reason it should be illegal.
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yes there is, I've posted it ..there is no evidence that light spanking in an infrequent basis leads to new or unique phsycological damage but that doesnt take into account problems that may manifest themselves after decades

repiV said:
If you can make do without it, great - but it's your own personal opinion and noone else should be beholden to it.
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no it's not my personal opinion, it's one shared by educators, medical professionals, child psychologists etc


I find it funny that in this day and age that young people still think the only solution is a violent one
 
CptStern said:
no they dont, if that were true we wouldnt prosecute parents who physically abuse their children ..you're assuming ownership of your children therefore they are less than human because they have zero rights
Click to expand...

Spanking is not physical abuse.

yes there is, I've posted it ..there is no evidence that light spanking in an infrequent basis leads to new or unique phsycological damage but that doesnt take into account problems that may manifest themselves after decades
Click to expand...

And others have posted evidence that contradicts yours.

no it's not my personal opinion, it's one shared by educators, medical professionals, child psychologists etc

I find it funny that in this day and age that young people still think the only solution is a violent one
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Spanking isn't violent. Nor did I say anything about it being the only solution. As has quite rightly been pointed out, if kids grow up in a world that's all sweetness and light, what the hell hope do they have of surviving in the real world?
It's a real problem when these sheltered kids turn 18 and suddenly they get the shock of finding out that the world is actually a piece of shit, and they're totally unequipped to deal with it.
 
repiV said:
Spanking is not physical abuse.
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i never corelated the two ..and it's in the eye of the beholder



repiV said:
And others have posted evidence that contradicts yours.
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and I quanified their evidence by saying it has to meet certain criteria: light spanking and infrequently used ..the same sources said that that wasnt typical



repiV said:
Spanking isn't violent.
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how is it not violence ..if I slap you it's an act of violence ..just because it's on their asses or hands and not the face doesnt not make it any less violent

repiV said:
Nor did I say anything about it being the only solution.
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but it is the only solution because that's the solution they take ..read my post on the father who couldnt get his son from under the table ..in the fathers mind THAT was the only solution


repiV said:
As has quite rightly been pointed out, if kids grow up in a world that's all sweetness and light, what the hell hope do they have of surviving in the real world?
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sigh, why do people think that if you dont beat your kids they have zero discipline? as I've pointed out time and again the easy solution would be to spank ..it's far far harder to change behaviour through modeling or through positive reinforcement ..spanking is often the quickest easiest solution


repiV said:
It's a real problem when these sheltered kids turn 18 and suddenly they get the shock of finding out that the world is actually a piece of shit, and they're totally unequipped to deal with it.
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who are these kids? and why would you equate not being prepared with no spanking? as I've already pointed out kids are fdar more prepared to face the world when they feel they've had an active role in their own upbrining, they develop a good sense of self, they develop a good sense of right and wrong etc ..not spanking does not in any way mean allowing them to do whatever they want

let me ask you this ..if your son misbehaved would you allow someone else to spank them? if so, why? if not why not?
 
CptStern said:
sorry but you already failed as a parent ..it is in your children's best interests that you learn the proper way of parenting
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I'm sorry, but not heeding the words of some quack psychologist does not automatically make someone a bad parent. :p No offense or anything Stern. I've heard you worked in that field before and all.

I just don't believe in psycho-analyzing everything. It's one step from witch-doctoring imo.

Keep it simple. There's no shades of grey and what's wrong is wrong. Punishment should be swift and to the point.
 
Saturos said:
CptStern said:
I'm sorry, but not heeding the words of some quack psychologist does not automatically make someone a bad parent. :p No offense or anything Stern. I've heard you worked in that field before and all.

I just don't believe in psycho-analyzing everything. It's one step from witch-doctoring imo.

Keep it simple. There's no shades of grey and what's wrong is wrong.
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there is always shades of grey ..what will you do when your two year old pees on the dog? or purposefully spills his milk? it's the paddle for them?

and yes I worked in the field ..as an art teacher ..no psycho babble for me, my education was all on the creative side
Click to expand...
 
Seems to me the real issue here is the nightmarish bureaucratic system that is bearing down on these apparently ordinary people even after their relative 'innocence' in the affair has been proved.

Although it is usually necessary to take the Daily Mail with a truckload of salt, but this being a subjective account I suppose we must rein in our doubts for the time being.
 
I think my parents had a good method. If I was acting out of line they would give me a smack on the backside and I would immediately stop. Then once there was a moment were we were alone, they would tell me that im not allowed to do whatever it was i was doing. The way I see it, a smack on the rump is an alright way to immediately stop unwanted behavior, but is not at all useful as a disciplinary action.
 
Spanking has been banned in Sweden for 30 years, and I think the effects have only been positive.
 
Man, the quickest way to stop doing whatever your doing wrong is to have the parent tell the kid, "Go get a switch."

Boy, that will ****ing stop you dead in your tracks. I was spanked as a child, and I turned out OK. Everybody who says it's "Detrimental" are just being pussies.
 
those sound like fighting words

<kicks sand in cyberpitz' face>

;)
 
Go get a switch? I dont get it. Is that the point?
 
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