Creationism and Evolution

[Locust]

I would like to state that Creationism and evolution go hand in hand. The bible says that we were created from dust, which gives the big bang. The bible said that God breathed life into us, which was our supercession of chimps and our acquiring of intelectual powers. The bible states that we are created in the image of God, which gives us our unique and superior body build. We are obviously evolved, but who's to say that this evolution wasn't guided. I find it hard to believe that this wonderfully complex universe in which we live was somehow a random explosion of particles; I find it equally hard to believe that this was all created in 7 days as the bible says. The correct theory is one that incorporates the facts of evolution combined with the truths found in the bible; only when these two ideas go hand in hand will everyone be satisfied.

 

[Flyingdebris]

although i'm not the church going guy i used to be, yeah i agree with what you said

 

[Gray Fox]

I would like to state that Creationism and evolution go hand in hand. The bible says that we were created from dust, which gives the big bang. The bible said that God breathed life into us, which was our supercession of chimps and our acquiring of intelectual powers. The bible states that we are created in the image of God, which gives us our unique and superior body build. We are obviously evolved, but who's to say that this evolution wasn't guided. I find it hard to believe that this wonderfully complex universe in which we live was somehow a random explosion of particles; I find it equally hard to believe that this was all created in 7 days as the bible says. The correct theory is one that incorporates the facts of evolution combined with the truths found in the bible; only when these two ideas go hand in hand will everyone be satisfied.

The Bible does not contain any truths, it's bs. And looking at it for years, thinking every wourd trough more then ones untill you twist it long enough to make it sound like it somehow relates to evolution does not make it any more true. In I used your imagination, I could make the mcdonalds menu sound like it explains the universe.

 

[Maxi]

I agree. I also think the bible is BS.

 

[The Monkey]

As much as I respect people's believes, you have to ask yourself one question. What proof are there of evolution respective creationism. Evolution: Tons. Creationism : None (except for a book that was written 2000 years ago with no historical or biological facts at all).

 

[Cons Himself]

Calling a religious text many people find enlightening, and revere and respect, 'BS' just goes to show who the real neanderthals are here - not the person who believes in creationism, but the person who mocks somebody elses beliefs.

I myself am an Orthodox Christian - Greek Orthodox in fact. Religion plays a big role in Greek society as does the family. But we are not fundamentalists - we are comfortable with our religion as the Orthodox Church has always been able to adapt to new developments, probably in a much better way than the other big Christian Church - the Roman Catholics.

As long as someone isnt trying to forcibly convert you, or force their morality onto you, there is no need to insult them or their beliefs - please behave in a civilised manner, otherwise you are no better than those Cardinals 300 years ago or more who threatened to kill Galileo because he believed the Eart went round the Sun


Sorry back OT - for me, the Bible is not something to be taken literally. I dont believe it is wholly the Word of God - though there are elements of that in there in certain books, chapters and verses. For example - I dont believe Adam and Eve lived to be over 900 years old. Perhaps back then years were different, or they counted years as shorter period of time - who knows.

What I do believe is that Jesus Christ was a man of great virtue, kindness and forgiveness. THOSE are values and qualities that we should all look up to and try to replicate within ourselves - for the good of all mankind.

You may think that for example, when you hold the door open for someone, or you let someone else take the limelight and receives the plaudits, or give more than you can really afford to someone less fortunate than yourself, and do it not for the fame and the glory, but for the feeling of warmth you get from helping others - you are not doing that much - but add all these things together and you see that we humans perhaps are not really as all bad as we seem to think - and that there is an ultimate good that you can strive to achieve.

 

[The Monkey]

Calling a religious text many people find enlightening, and revere and respect, 'BS' just goes to show who the real neanderthals are here - not the person who believes in creationism, but the person who mocks somebody elses beliefs.

Many people respect, revere and find the communist manifesto enlightening, but I've been many people call that BS or worse, and no one cares.

 

[Cons Himself]

Drawing parallels between spiritual fulfillment which is personal to each individual, and a style of government which in effect would be applied to the aggregate, is at best misleading and at worst ridiculously idiotic.

 

[Direwolf]

The Bible didn't really just come out of thin air, it contains an amalgamation of all kinds of bits and pieces from earlier myth structures. I suppose then the question is do these recurring myths carry anything of truth in them? Its an intriguing thought.

In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded.
Other theories about the ultimate start involve gods creating the universe out of the ribs, entrails, and testicles of their father.** There are quite a lot of these. They are interesting, not for what they tell you about the cosmos, but for what they say about people. Hey, kids, which part do you think they made your town out of?
**Gods like a joke just as much as anyone else.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Calling a religious text many people find enlightening, and revere and respect, 'BS' just goes to show who the real neanderthals are here - not the person who believes in creationism, but the person who mocks somebody elses beliefs.

Calling it BS is just saying that you find incredible hard to belive, at least thats the impression I get.

 

[dys4iK]

I would like to state that Creationism and evolution go hand in hand. The bible says that we were created from dust, which gives the big bang. The bible said that God breathed life into us, which was our supercession of chimps and our acquiring of intelectual powers. The bible states that we are created in the image of God, which gives us our unique and superior body build. We are obviously evolved, but who's to say that this evolution wasn't guided. I find it hard to believe that this wonderfully complex universe in which we live was somehow a random explosion of particles; I find it equally hard to believe that this was all created in 7 days as the bible says. The correct theory is one that incorporates the facts of evolution combined with the truths found in the bible; only when these two ideas go hand in hand will everyone be satisfied.

There is no evidence that evolution is guided. Anywhere. At all. If insisting it is is the only way you can reconcile it with the bible, you need to spend some more time studying the fundamentals of both.

 

[Maxi]

I call it BS for the litteral meaning of it. The whole "be nice to everyone" thing of religion is something I like, but when people call stuff the word of god, or it's gods kindness etc. that makes me go wtf.

 

[15357]

Everything is random, contrary to poular belief.

 

[Maxi]

Everything is random, contrary to poular belief.

Actually it's not random, it is just so complex that the human mind cannot comprehend it. That's what we call random.

 

[Fishlore]

LOL, how fitting is the name Cons Himself. That has to be the funniest thing I've seen all day.

I think the bible is BS. I think creationism is BS. By saying that, I'm not judging anyone. I'm sharing my opinion. Being offended by those statements would be like me being offended because you don't think the bible is BS.

 

[gcomeau]

I would like to state that Creationism and evolution go hand in hand. The bible says that we were created from dust, which gives the big bang.

The Big Bang did not, in any way, involve "dust". There wasn't even solid matter at the time.

The bible said that God breathed life into us, which was our supercession of chimps and our acquiring of intelectual powers.

1. We didn't "supercede" chimps.

2. We already HAD intellectual powers when the hominid line diverged from the chimp ancestral line.

3. And the Tao Te Ching lays out the principles of Quantum Mechanics. It speaks of the Yin and the Yang which gives us wave-particle duality! :upstare:

The bible states that we are created in the image of God, which gives us our unique and superior body build.

I'm sorry... superior to what? And are you really suggesting that an all powerful creator of the universe who supposedly has existed for all time resembles a bipedal primate? Why does he have legs? Arms? Lungs? A nose? Etc...

We are obviously evolved, but who's to say that this evolution wasn't guided.

You mean besides all of the evidence?

Look, if a person want to try to take the position that they're going to accept all of the mountainous evidence for the occurance of evolution but then tack on to the end of it "and it all happened because of God" for some obscure reason that's their call. It's a textbook illustration of a violation of Occam's razor and a classic God of the Gaps position but hey, whatever makes you feel better.

IT's the rough equivalent of accepting all of the evidence for gravity making things fall and then tacking on "and it all happens because of the gravity elves"... but whatever floats your boat.

 

[Gray Fox]

Calling a religious text many people find enlightening, and revere and respect, 'BS' just goes to show who the real neanderthals are here - not the person who believes in creationism, but the person who mocks somebody elses beliefs.

I myself am an Orthodox Christian - Greek Orthodox in fact. Religion plays a big role in Greek society as does the family. But we are not fundamentalists - we are comfortable with our religion as the Orthodox Church has always been able to adapt to new developments, probably in a much better way than the other big Christian Church - the Roman Catholics.

As long as someone isnt trying to forcibly convert you, or force their morality onto you, there is no need to insult them or their beliefs - please behave in a civilised manner, otherwise you are no better than those Cardinals 300 years ago or more who threatened to kill Galileo because he believed the Eart went round the Sun


Sorry back OT - for me, the Bible is not something to be taken literally. I dont believe it is wholly the Word of God - though there are elements of that in there in certain books, chapters and verses. For example - I dont believe Adam and Eve lived to be over 900 years old. Perhaps back then years were different, or they counted years as shorter period of time - who knows.

What I do believe is that Jesus Christ was a man of great virtue, kindness and forgiveness. THOSE are values and qualities that we should all look up to and try to replicate within ourselves - for the good of all mankind.

You may think that for example, when you hold the door open for someone, or you let someone else take the limelight and receives the plaudits, or give more than you can really afford to someone less fortunate than yourself, and do it not for the fame and the glory, but for the feeling of warmth you get from helping others - you are not doing that much - but add all these things together and you see that we humans perhaps are not really as all bad as we seem to think - and that there is an ultimate good that you can strive to achieve.

No seriously the bible is BS.

 

[Maxi]

The Big Bang did not, in any way, involve "dust". There wasn't even solid matter at the time.



1. We didn't "supercede" chimps.

2. We already HAD intellectual powers when the hominid line diverged from the chimp ancestral line.

3. And the Tao Te Ching lays out the principles of Quantum Mechanics. It speaks of the Yin and the Yang which gives us wave-particle duality! :upstare:



I'm sorry... superior to what? And are you really suggesting that an all powerful creator of the universe who supposedly has existed for all time resembles a bipedal primate? Why does he have legs? Arms? Lungs? A nose? Etc...



You mean besides all of the evidence?

Look, if a person want to try to take the position that they're going to accept all of the mountainous evidence for the occurance of evolution but then tack on to the end of it "and it all happened because of God" for some obscure reason that's their call. It's a textbook illustration of a violation of Occam's razor and a classic God of the Gaps position but hey, whatever makes you feel better.

IT's the rough equivalent of accepting all of the evidence for gravity making things fall and then tacking on "and it all happens because of the gravity elves"... but whatever floats your boat.

Haha I love how you made god look like a gravity elf. Well put.

/me is in agreement

 

[The Monkey]

Drawing parallels between spiritual fulfillment which is personal to each individual, and a style of government which in effect would be applied to the aggregate, is at best misleading and at worst ridiculously idiotic.

Have you ever read the bible? There you will find such statements like

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

and

Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result. But women will be saved through childbearing and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.

....While you in the communist manifesto will find many things written about equality and democracy.

 

[Cons Himself]

Have you ever read the bible? There you will find such statements like and ....While you in the communist manifesto will find many things written about equality and democracy.

I am a Christian - therefore I believe in Jesus Christ, for me, the Old Testament is nothing more than anicent Jewish morality - it doesnt mean anything for me. And no where did I state the Communist Manifesto is BS - I just stated that you were stating a mis-leading analogy.

What means something for me is the way Jesus Christ lived his life.

And Grey Fox - obviously I thought you were someone with whom I could hold a debate. Your 1 sentence reply says more about you, than me.

And to all those calling it Bullshit - there are surely less insulting ways to state your disagreement with something?

 

[jondy]

Evolution is a scientific theory. Creationism isn't. End of story.

 

[Gray Fox]

I am a Christian - therefore I believe in Jesus Christ, for me, the Old Testament is nothing more than anicent Jewish morality - it doesnt mean anything for me. And no where did I state the Communist Manifesto is BS - I just stated that you were stating a mis-leading analogy.

What means something for me is the way Jesus Christ lived his life.

And Grey Fox - obviously I thought you were someone with whom I could hold a debate. Your 1 sentence reply says more about you, than me.

And to all those calling it Bullshit - there are surely less insulting ways to state your disagreement with something?

I deserved that.

 

[Cons Himself]

End of story if you are debating Science. If you are talking about religion then it isn't is it. For the record - I believe God created the Universe.

However, I dont believe he did it in 6 days, had a rest on the seventh - made Adam, then Eve from Adam's rib and they both lived to be over 900 years old and all that stuff etc.

Heard of Stephen Hawking? Possibly the most intelligent physicist since Einstein? Hawking managed to prove our Universe is not a steady state Universe - it is expanding and accelerating. This, along with the discovery by two other Physicists of the left over 'noise' from the beginning of the Universe basically made the Big Bang theory pretty darn solid.

As Stephen Hawking himself said - the Big Bang theory leaves room for God since it implicitly implies the Universe had a beginning and has not just always 'been'.

 

[jondy]

End of story if you are debating Science. If you are talking about religion then it isn't is it. For the record - I believe God created the Universe.

However, I dont believe he did it in 6 days, had a rest on the seventh - made Adam, then Eve from Adam's rib and they both lived to be over 900 years old and all that stuff etc.

Heard of Stephen Hawking? Possibly the most intelligent physicist since Einstein? Hawking managed to prove our Universe is not a steady state Universe - it is expanding and accelerating. This, along with the discovery by two other Physicists of the left over 'noise' from the beginning of the Universe basically made the Big Bang theory pretty darn solid.

As Stephen Hawking himself said - the Big Bang theory leaves room for God since it implicitly implies the Universe had a beginning and has not just always 'been'.

By your own reasoning, you're debating religion, not science. So it has nothing to do with evolution. You cannot combine the two.

Incidentally, the reasoning you're practicing there - using the 'God' stopgap to plug a hole in scientific theory - is typical. There is always going to be room for that kind of thinking, because answers lead to more questions; don't exploit that.

You don't believe in the traditional Creationist view, Adam and Eve, etc. What religious explaination do you subscribe to? I'm not being facetious, just interested

 

[Cons Himself]

Exactly - in fact I think if you go through all my posts in this thread I havent mentioned evolution once..

And i'm not exploiting it - the fact is that there is room for God in Science, because the human race will never figure out everything before the end of the Universe....if there is an end. Or before we are wiped out by a comet or something like that. When one of the most pre-eminent Physicists responsible theoretically by himself for the Big Bang theory says there is room for God, then there is room for God. In a steady state Universe theory there is no room for God - that is the point I was trying to get across.

Like I said - I believe God created the Universe, how he did it I dont know, but I believe the complexity we see around us is simply testament to a great mathematician. God doesn't play dice, and there is no such thing as randomness.

 

[Apos]

End of story if you are debating Science. If you are talking about religion then it isn't is it. For the record - I believe God created the Universe.

Have you ever read "Finding Darwin's God" by Kenneth Miller? I recommend it far and wide, and I think you might enjoy it if you are interested in this subject. Miller writes from the perspective of a Catholic scientist, but I think he speaks to a lot of the issues are ones you'd find common ground on: how people go too far when they argue that science shows the world to be without purpose (it does not), how uncomfortable and bigoted some people's assumptions are about scientists that are religious, how creationists actually demean God in their attempts to shoehorn science into their beliefs, and his own musings on how his faith fits into his full support for evolution and modern cosmology, without contradicting scientific findings or making them into something they are not. All and all, an excellent read (the first half is mostly debunking creationists of various stripes, but the intro and the second half are what I think would be most interesting).

Heard of Stephen Hawking? Possibly the most intelligent physicist since Einstein? Hawking managed to prove our Universe is not a steady state Universe - it is expanding and accelerating.

There's actually even a rather ancient paradox that proves it as well that's fun to think about: if the universe was infinite and eternal, then the night sky wouldn't be dark: it would be as bright as the sun in every direction (or rather, as bright as the average star in the universe)! That's because all the light from every star (and there would be an infinite number of them) would already have reached us and be reaching us always, and since there are bound to be stars in every direction as long as you go far enough, there are no "holes." That's why our universe cannot be both eternal and endless, the same in every direction. Neat, no?

 

[Cons Himself]

Very neat - but if you go out into a rural area with no man made lights, the sky is certainly a lot brighter at night.

To be honest Hawking had to go a bit further than this to disprove the steady-staters since there is Dark Energy, Dark Matter, Black Holes and General clouds of dust and gas that can block out light from stars too far away.

And indeed its funny how a lot of famous scientists that the atheists use to flag-wave for Science vs God as if it was some kind of battle, were actually religious believers themselves Thanks for the tip on the book.

To be honest I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of people are lazy, and its easier to take 1 of the two extreme positions, rather than having to use your brain and take a more philosophical look at things.

 

[T.H.C.138]

anyone remember the old greek or norse gods? pretty funny the way those ancient people believed all that rot..which is what our descendents will be saying about us in a thousand years or so..

the ancient peoples had NO concept of how the wind blew,tides,thunder and lightning, pretty much any natural phenomenen was explained by the gods or their servants performing their duties..

we now know that these things are NOT caused by mighty thor or zeus..but rather by the position of the moon and how that affects the tides,etc..

 

[Apos]

Very neat - but if you go out into a rural area with no man made lights, the sky is certainly a lot brighter at night.

Actually, the opposite is true. The reason you can see more stars is because they are not being drowned out by ambient man-made light scattered in our upper atmosphere. It's just like a TV station that's getting interference: the noise drowns out the clear signal. Remove the noise, and you can finally see the signal.

To be honest Hawking had to go a bit further than this to disprove the steady-staters since there is Dark Energy, Dark Matter, Black Holes and General clouds of dust and gas that can block out light from stars too far away.

Well, the main weakness of the paradox is that it requires BOTH eternal time and a universe of infinite extent. Someone could imagine a steady-state universe with only one of those conditions, and it wouldn't be a problem.

Dark Energy wouldn't block light, and dark matter wasn't known about at the time Hawking and others were making their breakthroughs. (Black Holes aren't generally black: they are often very birght because of all the radiation and other clustered stars nearby. There's a huge black hole at the center of our galaxy, for instance, that's immensely bright because of the star density in the area)

And indeed its funny how a lot of famous scientists that the atheists use to flag-wave for Science vs God as if it was some kind of battle, were actually religious believers themselves Thanks for the tip on the book.

To be clear, I happen to be a non-believer. But I'm one who respects religion and religious believers. I think religion gets as much of a bum rap as science does. The real problem with religion in the modern world is that the extremists happen to be the most visible religious people. The vast majority of believers don't make plain their faith because they don't have the same sorts of agendas to push (they don't mention they are religious unless it comes up, as opposed to being activists that mention it in any and all contexts). As a result, what religion is all about to most people just isn't as well known, even amongst religious people.

To be honest I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of people are lazy, and its easier to take 1 of the two extreme positions, rather than having to use your brain and take a more philosophical look at things.

Precisely. The really frustrating thing about modern evangelicals to me is that their theology is so simplistic and single-minded. Read any of the great theologians, and you'll see complexity and insight as good as any philosopher. You may not believe some of the basic premises, but the reasoning and the depth to which they examine spiritual and natural issues is what makes their positions so respectable and important.

 

[Cons Himself]

Actually, the opposite is true. The reason you can see more stars is because they are not being drowned out by ambient man-made light scattered in our upper atmosphere. It's just like a TV station that's getting interference: the noise drowns out the clear signal. Remove the noise, and you can finally see the signal.

Thats what I said - in a rural area without man made light sources, the sky is brighter in that there are more stars. Not that there is more man made light. That would be a paradox

Well, the main weakness of the paradox is that it requires BOTH eternal time and a universe of infinite extent. Someone could imagine a steady-state universe with only one of those conditions, and it wouldn't be a problem.

Dark Energy wouldn't block light, and dark matter wasn't known about at the time Hawking and others were making their breakthroughs. (Black Holes aren't generally black: they are often very birght because of all the radiation and other clustered stars nearby. There's a huge black hole at the center of our galaxy, for instance, that's immensely bright because of the star density in the area)

True about the other stuff - but black holes have a bright rim, but at the centre are pitch black. Anyway my point was that they eat up light, so therefore not all light would reach us here on Earth basically.

Agree with everything else you said thou mate

And sorry I should have clarified - atheists who knowck religion as if it is their life's work was who I was having a go at

 

[iyfyoufhl]

I myself am an Orthodox Christian - Greek Orthodox in fact. .

wow, i though i was the only Orthodox Christian here, where you from?

 

[iyfyoufhl]

Evolution is a scientific theory. Creationism isn't. End of story.

scientific theory is a believe in its own way, so is creationism, and no, it's not the end of story

 

[Cons Himself]

the ancient peoples had NO concept of how the wind blew,tides,thunder and lightning, pretty much any natural phenomenen was explained by the gods or their servants performing their duties..

we now know that these things are NOT caused by mighty thor or zeus..but rather by the position of the moon and how that affects the tides,etc..

I'd wager that Aristotle was a hell of a lot more intelligent than you my friend - give the Ancients (specially the Greeks ) the respect they are due.

 

[Cons Himself]

wow, i though i was the only Orthodox Christian here, where you from?

From Cyprus - the Greek side. Originally from the North but fvkin Turks stole it didnt they.

 

[Apos]

They would mostly bend light, not devour it. But that's the same thing that happens with stars of equal mass as well. Eventually, light from elsewhere would be bent back to replace what was deflected or even absorbed.

As for the stars question, my point was just that the sky isn't actually technically any brighter in terms of you measuring even the luminosity of just starlight. All the starlight that you see in rural areas is still there in city areas, you just can't distinguish it from all the other light that's around. All the stars shine through during the day as well.

 

[Cons Himself]

They would mostly bend light, not devour it. But that's the same thing that happens with stars of equal mass as well. Eventually, light from elsewhere would be bent back to replace what was deflected or even absorbed.

Really? I must have seen countless documentaries describing how black holes eat up matter and light due to their immense gravitational pull - everything gets pulled in and crushed down to a volume of literally nothing resulting in an infinite density and creating a rip in space-time.

As for the stars question, my point was just that the sky isn't actually technically any brighter in terms of you measuring even the luminosity of just starlight. All the starlight that you see in rural areas is still there in city areas, you just can't distinguish it from all the other light that's around. All the stars shine through during the day as well.

Dude, im agreeing with you!
I know - that's what I was saying - you can see better just how many and how bright the stars are in rural areas since theres less man made noise.

 

[iyfyoufhl]

"stars are souls of great kings look at us from above"-recognize the quote?

 

[Apos]

Really? I must have seen countless documentaries describing how black holes eat up matter and light due to their immense gravitational pull - everything gets pulled in and crushed down to a volume of literally nothing resulting in an infinite density and creating a rip in space-time.

Which is mostly true: but that's only for light that actually hits the black hole directly at a direct enough angle. Remember that black holes don't have any more or less "sucking" power than the stars they used to be. The gravitational pull is exactly the same, just coming from a smaller area. Light that comes close enough to the hole's event horizon might well be radically "bent" by the way gravity warps space around it, but the exact same thing happens with light from distant stars coming close to our own sun (that's actually one of the ways Einstein's theory of gravity warping space-time was confirmed). Light that hits the black hole's event horizon at a direct enough angle won't escape, but then, light that hits the backside of our sun won't escape to reach earth either.

In addition, string theory suggests that there is a minimum size: basically that there is no infinite singularity point. That's not really here nor there, but it is a fascinating new idea.

 

[Locust]

Read the Road less traveled by M. scott peck. It will change your view on life.

 

[jondy]

scientific theory is a believe in its own way, so is creationism, and no, it's not the end of story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Science

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Scientists use observations, hypotheses and deductions to propose explanations for natural phenomena in the form of theories