CS: Source fudged!

[mammoo1982]

Fudged: To force something to behave in a way it is not naturally capable of!

First off I'd just like to say that I've been playing CS: Source since it was released (well 30 mins after anyway!) and I absolutely love it. However....

All the things I was looking forward to the new source engine are all "false".

1. Physics
I think everyone knows the problems with the physics and the reasons for them. Not being able to jump on barrels/cabinets/tables you have strategically moved makes the whole thing kinda pointless. If this has been done to improve netcode then this is forgivable (almost).

2. Shadows
Shadows are rubbish. Go through objects etc. Nuff said.

3. Lighting effects
The effects on say the sun in the sky are fantastic. The lens flare and blending are amazing but aren't these standard DX9 effects? The major problem I have with the lighting is the floor effects. I can't remember the name of the map but it is the one with all the indoor areas with shiney floors and lots of purple/green signs. The shiney floors are supposed to be reflecting light sources from around the room but they are just randomly placed on the floor with no correlation to where the light is coming from. I don't have a screen shot to demonstrate this which would make it much easier to describe. The point is that is not reflecting the light sources correctly - it is fudged. Think about it... if a light is shining on a floor and you run towards the reflection, should the reflection be moving about all over the floor? No, it would stay in exactly the same place because neither the light source or the floor are moving.

4. Blowing things up
Tables, PC's etc... I was expecting to be able to shoot up tables and split it where I was shooting it. This was almost the case. When I shoot a PC monitor it always splits in exactly the same place. When I shoot a PC it explodes in exactly the same way every time. When I shoot the case off and then shoot the hard drive the graphics card will fly out instead! When I shoot a table instead of it splintering where I shoot it it just explodes like in all other games. The point is that these are not clever or advanced in anyway - they are just slightly clever death animations. I was hoping to be able to shoot a monitor and it splits where I shot it.

So what exactly is so fancy about this new CS: Source engine? It feels like rather than having a brand new engine thats been built from scratch with everything integral from the start that instead it is just an old engine with bits added on and trying to make them fit. What improvements have been made with the new engine. The only improvement I can see is the improved graphics but are these any better than every other recent game?

This all concerns me because this is supposedly running from the same engine as HL2. If all the effects I've been looking forward to are not actually correctly done and just "fudged" then HL2 is going to be a huge let down.

HOWEVER.... none of the reviews have picked up on anything like this so I am hoping this will not be the case. I'm hoping the CS engine is a more basic version of the HL2 engine optimised for MP games online. Like I say, I really enjoy playing CS: Source but I just felt like saying my piece - when I saw those light reflections on the floor I just thought "they look ****".

P.S. The new blood decals are absolutely amazing... if only you could shoot up dead bodies a bit more.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I'm hoping the CS engine is a more basic version of the HL2 engine optimised for MP games online

That is the case sort of, ít uses the HL2 engine without anything changed, enginge wise. But it does not use it to its full potential to work well online. The lighting however is purly client side and it was a design decision, but surly you dont look at the shadows and complain when actually playing the game?

 

[redundant]

How often do you notice these little nitpicks when you are, oh I don't know, actually playing the game?!

 

[ZeroG]

1. Physics
I guess these are toned down for net code, otherwise with all the calculations needed, some people with leser connections/less powerful comps will struggle to play the game.

2. Shadows
ENOUGH about the shadows already! it's been discussed many times.

3. Lighting
Refering to floor shines and another thread, if you do look at odd surfaces, they do shine. Even brick and stone when a bit of moisture has collected on them. Although i have to agree on the part of the reflection moving all the time, but this is just to make it look spangly and give and 'ooo aaa' moment.

4. Blowing stuff up
Oh for the love of god, stop nitpicking. Just because you shoot a hardrive and something else comes out means u have to complain about it. Oh please, what effect does this have on the gameplay?

I can tell you what is so fancy, the graphics, the textures the ragdoll physics and plenty of other stuff. Don't forget that this isnt a new game, its just a make over in a new engine.

Oh and btw I do love the new source engine.

 

[mammoo1982]

Hi folks,

You seem to have missed the point. Its not all the individual things that bother me - I'm just saying this "new" enigne doesn't really offer anything different. The pyshics don't work, the shadows and lighting don't work, the interactive models don't work!! If I shoot a hard drive and something else pops out that defeats the whole purpose of this new "realistic", "physicsisised", "interactive" environment!

With regards to the floor shine - its not the shine that is the problem. It is the fact that the reflections being displayed are completely wrong! And yes, even when playing the game I do notice this a lot.

I do agree tho, the rag dolls are fantastic!

 

[smsKONG]

In respect to the odd reflections that don't match whats really there-

this is because valve used cubemaps for the reflections giving you the very basic innaccurate reflecions you see ingame- Don't forget the source engine still only uses one light source for shadows and reflections- one reason why you don't supercomputer to play it.

As for monitors that split apart wherever you shoot them......it would mean adding an obscene amount of break points to every destructible entity ingame.
Meaning every time you threw a nade into a room - everything would disintegrate into a thousand bits........ I don't know about you , but my comp lags like hell when someone nades the planks of wood on de_chateau. Imagine how bad it would get if every object splintered more than the wood

 

[mammoo1982]

Tis a good point about the breakages smsKONG. It's just kinda dissapointing when you look forward to it so much, mainly because of the new engine and what you expect to be able to do with it, and when it comes you can't actually do any of those things. Like I say, hopefully a lot of these issues will be improved in the final HL2 sp game because it won't have to stick to such limitations.

 

[Dem0nEgg]

The point is that is not reflecting the light sources correctly - it is fudged. Think about it... if a light is shining on a floor and you run towards the reflection, should the reflection be moving about all over the floor? No, it would stay in exactly the same place because neither the light source or the floor are moving.

I just tested this in my room, where I recently pulled the carpet up, and haven't finished cleaning the floor boards up... the floor boards have not been varnished at all, or sanded down even.... some have specks of paint on them and other assorted muck - and they still SHINE when you look at them from the other end of the room... and guess what? when I move from side to side... the shine DOES move... try it, honestly... this is very accurate. When I look at them from above... there is no shine, when I look at them diagonally down from the other end of the room, there is a shine on them, and it "moves" as your viewpoint moves. I'm not saying source is perfect... indeed alot of these very cubemaps are "fudged"! (seeing the sky when you are indoors...wtf?)

Alot of people say maps like Chateau (a ruined french manor house) should not have a shine on it, because it should look old and dirty and gritty. The fact is, anywhere where sunlight can get in, it should... shine a bit, no matter how dirty the wood is. You get the same thing with natural light.

The rest of your points are perfectly valid... and the toned down physics does seem to be to reduce the lag. :x

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

You seem to have missed the point. Its not all the individual things that bother me - I'm just saying this "new" enigne doesn't really offer anything different. The pyshics don't work, the shadows and lighting don't work, the interactive models don't work!!!

Doesn't offer anything different, well, I won't comment on that statement. The physics work, they are just over exaggerated in CSS for those people that want to play with things in game. Shadows can cause lag, and who cares if they aren't right, we've heard enough. Lighting is fine, I don't know what you're talking about. Interactive models? Uh.....when you shoot things the models move...

 

[CrazyHarij]

I think it's all okay for the game, I don't care about that when I play i. I do like the extremely detailed bumpmaps on some walls, it looks almost photorealistic in maps like Italy.

 

[Gray Fox]

I just tested this in my room, where I recently pulled the carpet up, and haven't finished cleaning the floor boards up... the floor boards have not been varnished at all, or sanded down even.... some have specks of paint on them and other assorted muck - and they still SHINE when you look at them from the other end of the room... and guess what? when I move from side to side... the shine DOES move... try it, honestly... this is very accurate. When I look at them from above... there is no shine, when I look at them diagonally down from the other end of the room, there is a shine on them, and it "moves" as your viewpoint moves. I'm not saying source is perfect... indeed alot of these very cubemaps are "fudged"! (seeing the sky when you are indoors...wtf?)

Alot of people say maps like Chateau (a ruined french manor house) should not have a shine on it, because it should look old and dirty and gritty. The fact is, anywhere where sunlight can get in, it should... shine a bit, no matter how dirty the wood is. You get the same thing with natural light.

The rest of your points are perfectly valid... and the toned down physics does seem to be to reduce the lag. :x

I completely agree with with this, the shine does move because its coming from the sunlighjt, and the sun is so large and at such a enormouse distance from us that that how ever you move the angle its coming from is the same, you can see that at best in the open though. For example lest say you are moving over water and the reflection of teh sun is 2 meters in front of you, now if you continue to move the same way its still going to stay 2 meters in front of you, as far as I can see this also goes for the light on the floor on that map, but I haven't played css so I don't know for sure.

 

[Kadayi]

I think the original poster is attempting to critique the Source engine based upon their 'play' with CS:S (personally I prefer to complete the team objectives...but each to their own). Perhaps it would of been judicious to read up fully on the subject beforehand? Many aspects of the Source technology have been curtailed in CS:S in order to maximise the online performance. I recommend waiting until HL2 is released before drawing any conclusions about the engines capabilities.

 

[KagePrototype]

1. Physics
I think everyone knows the problems with the physics and the reasons for them. Not being able to jump on barrels/cabinets/tables you have strategically moved makes the whole thing kinda pointless. If this has been done to improve netcode then this is forgivable (almost).

The physics have been toned down significantly especially for CS:S, so there's less server-side calculations and, as a result, a more smooth playing experience. All the nifty physics effects you've seen in videos and heard of aren't toned down in the full game, because there's no need.

4. Blowing things up
Tables, PC's etc... I was expecting to be able to shoot up tables and split it where I was shooting it. This was almost the case. When I shoot a PC monitor it always splits in exactly the same place. When I shoot a PC it explodes in exactly the same way every time. When I shoot the case off and then shoot the hard drive the graphics card will fly out instead! When I shoot a table instead of it splintering where I shoot it it just explodes like in all other games. The point is that these are not clever or advanced in anyway - they are just slightly clever death animations. I was hoping to be able to shoot a monitor and it splits where I shot it.

Valve never said that things break wherever you shoot them (only pre-designated places), and to have infinite "breakpoints" on an object would require an incredibly powerful rig (not to mention an incredibly powerful server so all of this is processed while keeping a smooth rate). You've set yourself up for dissapointment on this one, unfortunately. It IS possible though that, in HL2, there may be more potential breakpoints per object because it's single-player. Don't hold me on that, though.