Death physics in HL2...

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shaggy2039

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this may sound stupid, but I haven't played the cs:source beta yet, but how realistic are the death animations regarding the physics? alot of the pics I've seen look pretty ridiculous in terms of how the bodies fall backwards on top of themselves...
it almost reminds of the physics in Raven shield, which was comical most of the time...

also, do you think game developers have to watch actual videos of real people being shot to try to emulate it in their games?
 
HL2 ragdolls will be totally realistic. The CS:S ragdolls are just ragdolls.

So they will be different, I think..
 
the CS:S ragdolls are realistic IMO
 
Yeah, I know what you mean about the ragdoll deaths. They can at times look silly. I've never seen anyone get shot or die from it so this may seem like a worthless statement, but ragdoll deaths do seem slightly ridiculous. I've always been unsure about how much realism is offered thru ragdoll physics. Bodies often are not just limp, flexible objects like ragdoll phys seems to suggest.

But they do offer completely unique animations each time someone dies, so in this respect it is awesome.
 
i love cs:s ragdolls. theyre the most realistic ive seen in any game so far. rarely do they get a little screwy.
 
PenaE said:
HL2 ragdolls will be totally realistic. The CS:S ragdolls are just ragdolls.

So they will be different, I think..
Click to expand...

The ragdoll deaths in HL2 look exactly the same as in CS:S so far. I doubt they will have any animations added.
 
The CS:S ragdolls are very well done, so are the animations on the characters. Very impressed.
 
I don't understand when people say "CS:S's ragdolls look like crap"

I mean what more do you want from a ragdoll? How more exciting does a person's corpse get?
 
FoB_Ed said:
I don't understand when people say "CS:S's ragdolls look like crap"

I mean what more do you want from a ragdoll? How more exciting does a person's corpse get?
Click to expand...


I didn't say they looked like crap...I said SOME of the pics looked comical, and I haven't even played the beta...so, that's all I have to go by...I was nervous because of the ragdoll effects that I've seen in raven shield...
 
Games cannot realistically impliment a persons death. I think the ragdoll deaths are quite nice and exciting, maybe a little realistic, but in the real world people don't just go down like that. Or maybe not just always. Do you know what I mean? I'm not saying the ragdoll physics of HL2 and CS:S are crap or anything, I think they're great from what I've seen.
 
I don't think people generally die instantly like that... but I suppose it's prolly fairly representative of what's it's like when it does happen...
 
I've seen a few disturbing videos of people dying from being shot and it'd be pretty hard to duplicate that in a video game...but I think someone bending in half backwards is a little ridiculous...
 
do you think game developers have to watch actual videos of real people being shot to try to emulate it in their games?
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Guys, stop calling them "death animations" .. there are NO death animations, it's ragdoll, it's not pre-animated, it's done by the engine in real-time.
 
We won't be getting realistic ragdoll deaths for some time. So yeah, sometimes they are kind of strange looking. But I think ragdoll is better than canned animation. And from what I've seen CS:S has more realistic deaths than most other FPS games.

Plus, I like ragdolls not for realism, but because they can sometimes just look so damn cool. I think it's more of a fascination with physics than anything.
 
Go ahead, take any CS:S ragdoll death (unless it's too extreme like hanging from stuff or whatever), place yourself on the ground, and try to put yourself in the same position. I gaurantee you can make your body bend into every position a CS:S ragdoll would. They are VERY good ragdolls. When a human dies, their muscles become relaxed and their body will fall completely limp. The only exception is when a body has muscle spasms. Other than that, their muscles will become relaxed and topple over in some pretty strange ways. When you're living, it's hard for you to put yourself into these positions because it can be painful, and your muscles never truly relax as they would when you are dead. Don't beleive me? Go try it for yourself at your local morgue. Actually, i'm just kidding. Well, whatever..


Edit: Actually, I take back my statement. After a little research into rigor mortis, and how muscles react upon death, muscles actually contract and stiffen for a temporary amount of time (1-4 hours). After this period, muscles enter a relaxed state, and every muscle in the body becomes completely loose. Well, in this case, ragdoll death animations aren't realistic at all. However, I don't think it's necessary to emulate rigor mortis in a game, and as far as the ragdolls go, they perfectly simulate post rigor mortis body state.
 
ragdolls needed momentum to make them realistic - ie if you shoot a guy in the head as he's running the body carries on in the direction as it begins to ragdoll. (i'm not sure if this is in css)

The other thing is we need blended animations to go with the ragdoll so the force of a bullet pushes a guy backwards and slowly he loses his life but not before his hands clutch to the wound as he falls.
 
jonnyapps said:
The other thing is we need blended animations to go with the ragdoll so the force of a bullet pushes a guy backwards and slowly he loses his life but not before his hands clutch to the wound as he falls.
Click to expand...

Animation blending will surely be the next force in the "WOW HE DIED SO COOL" aspect of games. Of course, it would be tricky. If the ragdoll puts the body in an awkward position, then it has the potential to look really weird when the animation is playing.
 
Absinthe said:
Animation blending will surely be the next force in the "WOW HE DIED SO COOL" aspect of games. Of course, it would be tricky. If the ragdoll puts the body in an awkward position, then it has the potential to look really weird when the animation is playing.
Click to expand...
CS:S does have animation blending i believe...

the ragdolls curl up one leg just before they actually become ragdolls, and it looks damn cool imo :)

heres a pic of what i mean:
http://www.3dnewsnet.com/upload/files/de_dust0064.jpg

also, the reason you're mostly just seeing the crappy ragdolls, is because thats what people like taking picture of :p

the cool ones also get pics, but most of the time the ragdolls are 'realistic' and just get left unnoticed





dragonforce - valley of the damned
 
Well, since I can't edit my last post again... More reading has brought to my attention that rigor mortis is not instant, and occurs within hours after death. It's a biochemical process, and takes a period of time to occur. In this case, the ragdoll or relaxed muscle state of the body is realistic in CS:S.
 
I dunno, I'm sure I've read that they modelled muscle tension and spinal cord flex into the ragdolls so that they dont look like a toy when they fall, but that doesnt make it look completely realistic...

The best example of this is motion capture. Play a game where all the animations are captured from an actual human, and you'll see that its not really "real" looking ingame. Now look at a game that takes motion capture and uses it as a base for the animations and you'll see that it looks quite real. Yes in most old games the motion capture is tweaked but just to fix and anomalies.

My suggestion is to take wahtever values they think are realistic and change them abit to get more realistic behaviours ingame.
 
I have to step up and defend Raven Shield. The ragdoll effects in that game, whilst not as great as they are now, were very good upon release. I will admit that they weren't totally realistic tho with a few too many bodies bending backwards over themselves, but on the whole, it was a good step above animated deaths.
 
thefiznut said:
Well, since I can't edit my last post again... More reading has brought to my attention that rigor mortis is not instant, and occurs within hours after death. It's a biochemical process, and takes a period of time to occur. In this case, the ragdoll or relaxed muscle state of the body is realistic in CS:S.
Click to expand...
Jeez, haven't you watched CSI? ;)
 
RoguePsi said:
I have to step up and defend Raven Shield. The ragdoll effects in that game, whilst not as great as they are now, were very good upon release. I will admit that they weren't totally realistic tho with a few too many bodies bending backwards over themselves, but on the whole, it was a good step above animated deaths.
Click to expand...

I agree, but let me just say how many times I'd shoot a terrorist and his leg would bend over his right shoulder while his arm was twisted behind his neck...now, normally, it wouldn't bother you, but when you're playing a tactical game, the last thing you want to do is start laughing at some ragdoll effect, which will end up leaving you vulnerable to getting shot...which has definitely happened to me before by the way....
 
From what I've seen the ragdolls are quite realistic, for instance I've seen people shot from the side while I was watching front on- they definitely were forced slightly the opposite way as they collapsed. It all looked very realistic and showed that the bullets do physically affect the ragdolling.

However it must be remembered that in real life the force of a bullet hitting you will NOT knock you off your feet, that nonsense comes from holywood.

I'm not sure if the shotgun has more effect on the ragdolls than the other guns as I've not used it yet.
 
This will give you an idea of the action in CSS.
Before
After
I think he got turned around somehow. hehe

It's pretty realistic as far as a limp body falling or being thrown among other objects.
 
guys here is the extact reason the ragdols in css arnt real lookin

1.they have only 1 body weight, in real life, every part of the body has different weight.

2.when u get shot, u dont really die right away, u kinda struggle, like move around, in css, u die instantly, so there is no extra movement.

3.the body size in css are innaccurate

4.many other i cant think of
 
PenaE said:
HL2 ragdolls will be totally realistic. The CS:S ragdolls are just ragdolls.

So they will be different, I think..
Click to expand...
maybe you all arent understanding the concept of ragdoll. when your hp == 0 then the body loses rigidity and is free to be acted upon by the physics engine.


bullet hits head hp == 0 computer says to phys engine, react to bullet impact, force of bullet hitting head causes momentum to == -10 body flops backwards. its not exactly like that but its like that.
 
You know, I've been wondering if it really would be fun to play a game where people don't fly through the air when shot...
Imagine Max Payne2, only people just get bullet wounds and fall down on their knees, instead of flying around in satisfyingly cool ways...

I'm not sure that would be fun, but I sure would like to try it out, if they make proper bulletmarks on the body.. :dork:
 
smsKONG said:
However it must be remembered that in real life the force of a bullet hitting you will NOT knock you off your feet, that nonsense comes from holywood.
Click to expand...

It could if you had armor on, right?
 
The reason that ragdoll doesnt look realistic sometimes is that the game cannot react to the way bullets hit and what they hit inside ur body, bullets, as in rifle, handguns and stuff do not create much of a forward momentum when hitting a body as it disperses upon impact, and also that it pierces and shouldnt push, in every military outfit ur told that hitting just under the carnium is the best way to take someone down as ur severing the link from the brain to the body, the body will crumple downwards and not much in any other direction unless on a hill or a slope of somekind.

Also with the physics to grenades, grenades, especially fragmentation grenades, this type of grenade should produce a shockwave, but shouldnt really cause the body to fly as u see in most games, in reality the shockwave will probably not kill u unless ur directly on top of it or right next to it, its the fragmentation of the metal casing that kills u and so if u die from a grenade u will also crumple as the shockwave will pass right before the fragmentations hit u as its faster.

Also, the physics engine cannot simulate real life physics, and the developers have to balance fun with realism so thats why u see many games that have bodies flying everywhere as that accounts for fun, but that is probably limited to explosive objects. And also the those pics where the bodies have legs standing and bent and so forth is because the physics engine is simulating the frictional surfaces of the dusty terain with the shoe, it might be different if it was a clean and slippery surface, i dont know if they would have put those different frictional properties in.

So to some extent u could possibly to some extent simulate real death with rag dolls, as seen in the HL2 vids where u were fighting with barny with the electric barrier, and when u blew up the enemy they flew over the cars, that part would be unrealistic but it would be fun to see, the realistic part is that the body wasnt spinning in all that many directions as it shouldnt, it was pretty motionless, because lets say he was flying and then his arm gets pushed at speed, the speed would be cut down considerably because the arm is connected to a heavy weight which happens to be the rest of the body so in fact the arm would fly up but then due to gravity fall back down, without moving the body too much.

So at the moment, what one of the posters up above said the physics engine only calculates one wieght and one hit, while in fact the body should have very independent hit zones and can be hit in many different areas, and until we can map out where the spine goes, brain, heart, stuff like that, we wont get a true representation of how a body will die.

But still, i think the physics is one of the best balanced physics ive seen, between realism and fun.
 
Ragdools arent Animations.
They did not actualy sit there looking at people drop dead and then animate it, because its all physics based.
 
Also to the animation blending, from what i watched where they were having that massive battle with the striders next to that pillared building, when the striders got hit by the rockets, they looked like they were about to topple over but corrected themselves with the right footing, i dont necessarily know if that was pure animation of physics, but thinking about it, since we all know the striders are uber powerful, maybe hitting them in the right spot at the same time can topple them over, effectively dealing with the striders maybe?
 
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