Demacracy 1, Chavez 0

and for the daily depressing news (DDN), Putin just entered an illegal 3rd term. :(

(I think it's a 3rd term)
 
I saw that documentary as well.

Thought the hate against him was fairly baseless, but the whole changing the constitution for indefinite terms in office is just a nono and smacks of "you've lost my respect. mate".
 
Good.

The guy obviously had dictatorial ambitions, he wants to be the next Castro (with whom he is good friends with, BTW).

He only included the six hours work day to gain the votes of the working class, as they wouldn't have voted for the change otherwise; nobody really wanted more power to the presidency. It was a cheap shot that failed, thankfully.
 
My entire family on my moms side is moving away from the country while they can, they say its chaos, its unbeliavable facism. If you dont vote for chavez or follow his willing, you loose your job. My moms brothers and sisters got fired simply because they voted against him, and had to gather money from the streets to feed my cousins. My grandma didnt get enough healthcare because of this. Chavez took over television channels and the newspaper so he totaly controls the media. He is turning the country into a militant country, by spending tons of money on military instead of other important things. For example, there was a huge national park were my mom use to be with her friends when they were young, tons of ppl went there with their families, now its closed off with tanks and military with huge statues of Chavez. I saw it with my own eyes when i was there, dont think anyone outside of venezuela has seen it.

A few of my cousins has to live in "ranchos" up on the hills, small buildings they build themselves because chavez has thrown them out of society, simply becuase they dont agree with him.

But then you say "well dont vote at all". Thats not an option. One of my aunts didnt vote, so they came with military cars to her work, took her by force to the voting boots and forced her to vote.
 
jimbo118 said:
i never really saw why so many people disliked this guy :|

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Hugo_Chávez
interesting...

i mostly know about him through the documentary Chavez: Inside The Coup which was renamed The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, it was first shown over here as it was two Irish people who made it, its a great documentary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised_(documentary)
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Watch the first 15minutes of War on Democracy; it made me fall in love with the Chavez regime.

The fact is most people in the country support Chavez he's done fantastic things for the people and this is show by the fact that he's won more than 10 elections in a row up to now.

Good.

The guy obviously had dictatorial ambitions, he wants to be the next Castro (with whom he is good friends with, BTW).

He only included the six hours work day to gain the votes of the working class, as they wouldn't have voted for the change otherwise; nobody really wanted more power to the presidency. It was a cheap shot that failed, thankfully.
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I'm not sure Monkeyman, he's expanded democracy and made it more open to the people:

In March 2006 the Communal Council Law was approved, whereby communities that decide to organize themselves into a council can be given official state recognition and access to federal funds and loans for community projects. This skips the local and state governments that are perceived as corrupt.[128]
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They talk about this in the first bit of the film I linked to.

Your notion that he only wanted to change the six hour day thing to win the support of the workers is something I must agree with. I have no doubt Chavez's reason for this was the plight of the poor. He is from a working class background and everything he does is becuase of his desire's to end poverty and create a fairer and more equal society.

Just look at the 'Bolivarian Missions' he has introduced; you can see that what he is doing is for the people of Venezuela, he is the peoples hero. That is why I trust him 100% when he says he wants to expand his powers, I have no reason to believer that he has anything other than the interests of the Venusians people at heart.

He would make a fantastic president for the years to come along side the elected national assembly.

raviloi said:
My entire family on my moms side is moving away from the country while they can, they say its chaos, its unbeliavable facism. If you dont vote for chavez or follow his willing, you loose your job. My moms brothers and sisters got fired simply because they voted against him, and had to gather money from the streets to feed my cousins. My grandma didnt get enough healthcare because of this. Chavez took over television channels and the newspaper so he totaly controls the media. He is turning the country into a militant country, by spending tons of money on military instead of other important things. For example, there was a huge national park were my mom use to be with her friends when they were young, tons of ppl went there with their families, now its closed off with tanks and military with huge statues of Chavez. I saw it with my own eyes when i was there, dont think anyone outside of venezuela has seen it.
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Unbelievable fascism? I presume your family are quite well off in comparison to the poor of venezuela, thanks to Chavez those people can now have access to health care and live lives with dignity, I don't shed a tear for those who's profits must take a dint in order to pay for this.

Your harassment to vote for Chavez fall flat too, how would they know who your family voted for? You blame Chavez for your Grandmother not getting healthcare? That's a flithy lie. Thanks to Chavez every single Venezuelan has access to FREE healthcare when they had access to non before, bar the minority who could afford it.

You then say he's spending more money on the military than important things? 44% of the budget already is spent on social investment. source.

I don't care about your moms park when the poor now have food, jobs, health care and dignity.

A few of my cousins has to live in "ranchos" up on the hills, small buildings they build themselves because chavez has thrown them out of society, simply becuase they dont agree with him.

But then you say "well dont vote at all". Thats not an option. One of my aunts didnt vote, so they came with military cars to her work, took her by force to the voting boots and forced her to vote.
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And what about those in the Bario's? They were neglected for decades by the government now the people are treated as citizens, just watch the film to see what I mean.
 
Ravioli, did Chavez just lose an election? How can you claim he is a dictator when he just lost an election. Everything he has done has been consitutional and when he wanted to change parts of the consitution he had to call for an election to do that, election that he lost. Sounds like a fair democracy to me.
 
No Limit said:
Ravioli, did Chavez just lose an election? How can you claim he is a dictator when he just lost an election. Everything he has done has been consitutional and when he wanted to change parts of the consitution he had to call for an election to do that, election that he lost. Sounds like a fair democracy to me.
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Yeah, that's what Putin talks about... a fair and democratic country while he does everything he can to stifle critics(by killing some of them) and bring about longer terms for himself by preventing other candidates from running.
 
Raziaar said:
Yeah, that's what Putin talks about... a fair and democratic country while he does everything he can to stifle critics(by killing some of them) and bring about longer terms for himself by preventing other candidates from running.
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What do you see as unfair in this process? He wanted the consitution changed, he called for an election, he lost, and the consitution wasn't changed. What exactly is the problem?
 
No Limit said:
What do you see as unfair in this process? He wanted the consitution changed, he called for an election, he lost, and the consitution wasn't changed. What exactly is the problem?
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I'm just saying that some of these guys who claim democracy louder than anybody else, really aren't democratic at heart at all if they have the power not to be.
 
The problem is that he has brought too much power to the presidential post. Every democracy must have checks and balances.

The first sign of a dictatorship emerging is usually that the leaders start to cut down on press freedom, something Chavez has gone a long way of doing.

But really, his friendship with and support of Fidel Castro really says it all about his respect for democracy.
 
The Monkey said:
The problem is that he has brought too much power to the presidential post. Every democracy must have checks and balances.

The first sign of a dictatorship emerging is usually that the leaders start to cut down on press freedom, something Chavez has gone a long way of doing.

But really, his friendship with and support of Fidel Castro really says it all about his respect for democracy.
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No he hasn't. We've discussed the incident where he refused to renew that TV stations license and established that it was the right thing to do. No government would allow a media company who played a major role in a coup d'etat to continue to broadcast.

Again, the introduction to war on democracy explains the stations role in and knowledge of the coup very clearly.

The friendship with Cuba has brought a lot of benefits to the people of Venezuela; Chavez has made clear his disagreements with the Cuban system.
 
Solaris said:
*snip*
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the "barrios" are the "ranchos" he mean

he have made programs that helped the poor yes,but still he have done stuff like attacking media and everyone who dont follow him

just look at everyone whit a red shirt,it will repeat the same thing he say over and over again like "private medias are CIA agents that destabilize, are paid by washintong, they want to kill me cuz they are violent ogres who only want blood" even in a news about the police finding a lot of drugs and weapons inside a house used for smugling, a goverment representative said that the weapons "where going to be used to make chaos in the coming referendum" cuz yeah all opositor is bad
but offcourse all this is music for your ears

and the tons of cases that reporters get beated by followers of chavez,there was a senator that menaced a station to "take it",and they say opositor are the violent ones

a old friend of mine suported the reform,he live in a poor zone and support your idols lenin and marx,but he wasnt 100% suporting the reform,he say that there was lot of stuff he didnt liked and dont consider chavez "perfect"
for example a law that made the goverment being able to control any kind of information in a emergency case or something like that,and yeah a big part of the population didnt know very well the changes,the goverment distributed some papers that seem aimed for kids whit drawings whit letters saying "the reform will eliminate the corrupts.." and stuff like that,and dont go against me cuz I saw one

even close allies of chavez when against the reform,cuz it didnt even gave so much "power to the people" cuz in a lot of changes there was stuff that only the president could chose like the governors of districs and such

and yes we know you have a big altar of lenin,mao,castro,and chavez and this is a tragedy but dont go messiah on me you only wan to see red flags on my country and dont care what the heck it happens on it
so keep defending if you want but people will see the whole stuff not just what you want them to see

and I dont think is so big good news,sure he will come whit other stuff
 
Solaris said:
No he hasn't. We've discussed the incident where he refused to renew that TV stations license and established that it was the right thing to do. No government would allow a media company who played a major role in a coup d'etat to continue to broadcast.

Again, the introduction to war on democracy explains the stations role in and knowledge of the coup very clearly.

The friendship with Cuba has brought a lot of benefits to the people of Venezuela; Chavez has made clear his disagreements with the Cuban system.
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No, "we" didn't. Your opinion is not the hl2.net consensus.
 
"War on Democracy" is not an authority on the matter.

i believe what RJMC and ravioli say about Venezuela. Labelling them as Rich kids who are obviously against the revolution doesn't help. They're hardly Venezuela's equivilent of Champange Socialists.
 
Oh no, what have I done. now it's Commie vs Capitalist nonstop arguing.

Well, don't shoot the messenger, but I respect Chavez for not going crazy and taking over the government. This shows he's willing to do as the people want. In a communist regime, this can sometimes lead to actually a good government. Problem is, he may drive the nation into bankruptcy and destruction in doing so.
 
one thing is that after seeing the results of the votes it was a very close margin
it was literally 50% vs 49%,and the total voters was 8 million,in a country whit more that 25 millions,thats means a lot of people didnt vote,and a reason was a past referendum where voters will request a second referendum where the options are if they want the president out,after the option to make the second won,the goverment literally launched bombs of propaganda and made some tweaks in the election sistem,whit machines and stuff that made people suspicious,also in others countries the goverment staged mobilizations of followers to vote in the embassy to give a impression that everyone was in favour of the goverment
in my opinion the goverment was worried,cuz believe me the amount of propaganda was huge,even in refineries there was a big "NO" painted in the petroleum tanks that was the pro goverment option of that referendum,and everywhere you look you will allways see propaganda,especially of the goverment
when chavez won that one there was many claims of fraud,but since all the sectors of the goverment are pro-chavez the claims got litle atention,similiar to what is happening in russia right now
and you should see the propaganda the goverment used after that

so all that stuff made the people to not trust the electoral sistems so in the next elections a lot of people didnt voted

in those elections the slogan of the goverment was "10 millions trough your guts" or something like that,and off course the propaganda was huge,whit mobilizations sponsored by the governors who are followers of chavez too(that was during another elections after the second referendum I think,where in almost all states the pro chavez won) and after the previous event people really feel so comited to vote

but in those elections the votes pro-chavez where of 5 millions,the oposition who was stupid and didnt put one single canditate but varios postponed on their own get the rest,total was 10 million so half the population didnt vote and sure all that bunch wasnt underage people

so this "victory" is really a sign that or people didnt get fooled by the reform or more opositors voted

I hope that gives you all a feeling of what is really happening in my country so you dont get fooled easily by propaganda like those videos of solaris,cuz c'mon thats propaganda,th autor is a chavez follower too

and if you say that chavez is not a dictator cuz he made this democratically well yes but sure cuz he knows that if he go into a dictarorial way he will get topled like various dictaros in the past,infact my country was full of dictatorsin the 20 century,it was at the end of the 50's where the democracy we know appeared
 
Anyone familiar with the monroe doctrine cannot have been against that reform, more power to the latinos I say, less to the american backed military regimes.
Also, I'm puzzled by the title? Democracy 1 Chavez 0? It's more like a tie since he said since the beggining he'd go with what the people would choose and seems bent on not imposing it.

Edit: And on that Putin part, he still has the support of the people of his country, main reason the occident wants him out is exactly because he is making a strong russia (again). If the NATO countries hadn't left post USSR russia to be humiliated, poor and struggling, they could have handled the changes and helped put on a regime they liked, they didn't , they ignored russia and treated it like a third world country. Bad idea to do this with a country with lots of energy reserves and enough nukes to destroy the earth. Nothing ever happens without a reason and trying to categorize the whole world as "those are the bad guys, those are the good ones" only proves a lack of understanding on how complicated and amoral (not immoral) and complicated politics and diplomacy are.

So I wrote this late at night and english isn't my first langage, I hope it made some kind of sense.
 
It does chipmunk. And I know what I wrote. This was written before Chavez accepted his lost. I'm happy Chavez took the democratic way.

And to do with Russia, I think it's safe to say that Putin is using his power to please the Russian people and in doing so, rebuild Russia. I know his mind, I think. He's smart. He realizes that reestablishing the USSR will kill Russia forever. So, he's using democracy to his advantage. Problem is, he's KGB. And just like the CIA, you can never trust them unless you work side by side them.
 
Democracy 0, Spelling 0, Chavez 1
 
I'm just saying that some of these guys who claim democracy louder than anybody else, really aren't democratic at heart at all if they have the power not to be.
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QFE. But it's not to see Chavez is'int leading his own military coup de'etat in upset over the results of the vote.
 
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