deus ex 3?

[Asknoone]

This post contains spoilers

(the spoilers are integrated, so I didn't put tags)


The plot of Deus ex is far better than that of IW, yes IWs plot was pretty good but it didn't have a scratch on Deus ex's. Deus ex painted a better atmosphere, where people were living as scum in shanty towns and defunct trainstations, Hells Kitchen was home to riff raff you'd expect - they had individuality. In IW, they were plastic. The two at the bottom of the Inclinator were plastic and boring. Unlike when I first found what's his name (punk in black) threatening Sandra.

I failed to get wrapped up in IWs sub plots, they were more "forced" I felt, where as in Deus ex if I wanted I could have totally shunted the Sandra Renton and her fathers dispute and forgot about Jojo. I could have shrugged off the news reporter, saving myself the trouble of getting scolded by Manderley or by simply putting my foot down on his questions.

IW didn't do that for me, yeah, I could have let the people in Cairo suffer the plague, or I could have removed it. But did I really care about it or not? Not really. In Deus ex I was always wanting to return to the different locations to see how things have developed - I was gutted when Sandra walked out. But not as gutted as I was to see her lost near the ruins of LA.

Oh no. Annoying little Leo has been drafted into the Omars ranks and now he's crying about it. I couldn't have cared less.

Yeah, IW had a good plot, and a great premise - but what got me is how certain characters could have such radical mood swings during those 20 years. Why the hell did they do that to Chad Dumier.

 

[Absinthe]

Oh yeah, the complete bastardization of Chad Dumier made no sense. Let's see, good ol' JC pretty much saved his ass in the first game. How does Chad pay him back? "JC? **** him" is pretty much the gist of anything he says regarding him. He spends years fighting the corrupt bastards behind the conspiracies in the first game only to be a corrupt bastard behind conspiracies himself. And yet the game never really explains why. It's like you were given Part A and Part C, but you had to fill in Part B yourself.

 

[Asknoone]

Oh yeah, the complete bastardization of Chad Dumier made no sense. Let's see, good ol' JC pretty much saved his ass in the first game. How does Chad pay him back? "JC? **** him" is pretty much the gist of anything he says regarding him. He spends years fighting the corrupt bastards behind the conspiracies in the first game only to be a corrupt bastard behind conspiracies himself. And yet the game never really explains why. It's like you were given Part A and Part C, but you had to fill in Part B yourself.

Exactly, they turned most good characters into assholes.

 

[Sparta]

Imagine Deus Ex with decent fighting

That would be special.

Indeed. Deus Ex with Half-Life 2/Freedom Fighters style combat would be awesome. Even though its already one the best games ever

You can't definatly say Dx1 was better thne Dx2, causet hey are simply two different games Dx1 is a rpg and Dx2 isn't, it's a matter of tastes.

IMO DX2 was way better:

1) better atmosphere, in Dx1 everything was grey pretty much
2)better gameplay. i didn''t enjoy the Dx rpg, prametars, I don't enjoy beeing a highly trained secret agent who can't shoot shit 2 feet in fron't of him, I like my characters to be able to do basic stuff and and that all the biomods ads extra, thats how it was in Dx2.
3) better lvl design, the lvls maybe smaller but they are btter designed to be able to host different gameply styles
4) subplots are way better and the characters more intersting, I liked the social political story, in Dx1 it was mostly nonintersting conversations full of abbrivations. The quesqog and pequog in Dx2 was a brilliant mirror story of the main story.
5) a lot more varietly and better pacing, there constantly twist in the plot from the very beginning.

Lord, you do have odd taste dont you. I mean, better level design? What the heck are you thinking? Do you like narrow levels or something? The levels in Deus Ex were 3 times bigger then anything in IW. And what subplots? I can't think of any in IW that stood out, except, maybe, just maybe that coffee one that you mentioned. In Deus Ex i can think of a ton of different ones, like that Hooker and her father at that hotel in Hell's Kitchen, or Gunther (I can't remember his name right...German augmented guy, kinda like Arnie) and his requests for "skulguns" and his bitter hatred of JC after he kills whats-her-face (Again, long time since i've played the game). The storyline was way better in Deus Ex. Especially Icarus and Daedalus and how they fell into it all at the end. That was superb and far better then anything in IW.

And i can't think of any variety in DX2....most of it was either sneak around or blast everything. If i remember right thats the pretty much the same thing in Deus Ex. Plus the original was way longer. From 40-60 hours. Whereas i remember IW being about 18-25.

One thing i do agree on is what you said about the aiming system in Deus Ex. Sucked. You're completely right there. But at least the A.I reacted after you shoot them. In IW you shot them, and then you shot them again, and then again, and then again, and then they attacked you.

I'm not saying IW is a bad game, but its nowhere NEAR as good as Deus Ex was for its time, nor is it anywhere near it today.

 

[Cons Himself]

FF is about as mainstream as you can get.

Quoted for truth - wasnt it the biggest selling game on the PSX?

DeusExMachinia = owned

oh and methinks Grey Fox is playing a bit of Devils Advocate here

i cant think of one review which scored Iw better than the first game. I cant think of any other person who preferred IW for that matter

 

[Gray Fox]

No I'm not playing the devils advocate.

Spoilers ahead:

You people call the hooker and her dad a subplot, my god that isn't even a plot. It's just a damn hooker who is threatened by her pimp, thats it. Nothing more. It's not a social comment like the coffe thing was in the first, nor a smart mirror of the illuminati plot.

The first game was basicly this, you work for that unasco, you find out that the resistance fighter are the good guys( jeez, only done in 100 b movies before), and then you basicly go around and chase people. You find out that mj12 is a broken of section from the illuminati. And how they plan to take over the world wilt an AI.

In the Dx from the first moment there are strange things happening, and untill the last moment therte is no clear good or bad guy. There are as lot of twists, like that the order and WTO are the same, that aphostelcorp works for JC, and what the Knightstemplar are. The whole game you are finding out thinbgs that rase even more questions and it all wraps up nicly in the end. And the fact that you can piss of a lot of the sides till pretty late has a pretty damn good explenation. The game is also a good social political lesson, unlike the first one that has the plot of b movie.

The lvls may not be as big, but once again atleats they are believeble, cause not every damn thing is gray and they are atleast not empty like in the first one. Which adds to the atmosphere, and makes it a little more believeble.

The gameplay is a lot better, now this for the most part taste, I admit. And if you liked the first better, well I can understand that. But the second one was better balanced. If you wanted to play all stealthy you could, if you wanted to kill everything you could. If you wanted to melee, good. In the first the energy sword ruined everything, people who invested in melee were ****ed, cause that kill could have been better out in other areas. Cause with the energy sword was uberstrong in the hands of everyone. The second one was simpler, but with better balance.

 

[Cons Himself]

Well how come IW flopped and DX1 didn't? You saying the market was wrong and you were right all along but no one else could see it cos you have some amazing 'sense' of what a good game is, that no one else has...

Simple fact is good games will sell, crap ones wont. Crap games may also sell, but thats a different matter entirely.

The characters:

IW bastardized Dumier. Why would some socialist crank Bennite idiot suddenly become 'The Man'? JC looked like a different person entirely. The characters were not gritty enough. That jock fag who started crying cos he wanted out of the Omar - who cared about him? Billie Adams - your supposed nemesis had about 3 lines of dialogue the entire game - who cared about her? Your mentor that Arabic Doctor - who cared. In fact who cared about your OWN character. JC Denton in the 1st game had crappy voiceacting too. But at least it was funny in a cheesy kind of way - at least he was cool. In IW your character is about 12 years old. In fact I can't even remember his name - shows what an impact he had on me doesnt it. Care Care Care. None of the characters were interesting.

Levels: These were shrunk in IW to make up for the fact that the game was going to come out on the XBOX - go check out the recently released Thief 3 SDK which is basically the same as the IW one. One of the devs mentions on www.ttlg.com forums that since the XBOX only had 64megs of RAM they had to make smaller levels for the PC Game too. Sucky Sucky Bang Bang. Oh and Wang Chei Market in Hong Kong - one of the best areas ever conceived in a game.

Gameplay: IW: Here's a puzzle. There are two ways past. 1. Fight. 2. Oh look a conveniently placed grate. Grate Grate Grates everywhere. In fact it was quite grating wouldnt you say?

Plot: Plots are determined by characters. No decent characters in IW hence crappy plot. Oh I have to go kill that Arabic Doctor Womans plants in her greenhouse. Care? No. Coffee Wars: Interesting yes. Care? No. Sandra Denton - did people care? Well yes they did actually. Thats more important.

I could go on and on but ant be bothered. Fact is the majority view is that IW sucked ass due to XBOX constraints and dumbing down. The majority is right.

 

[Absinthe]

SPOILERS

You people call the hooker and her dad a subplot, my god that isn't even a plot. It's just a damn hooker who is threatened by her pimp, thats it. Nothing more. It's not a social comment like the coffe thing was in the first, nor a smart mirror of the illuminati plot.

Beats the crap out of the "Mega coffee corporation vs. little guys" subplot you're raving about.

The first game was basicly this, you work for that unasco, you find out that the resistance fighter are the good guys( jeez, only done in 100 b movies before), and then you basicly go around and chase people. You find out that mj12 is a broken of section from the illuminati. And how they plan to take over the world wilt an AI.

Well, sure. You simplify things like that and you can make anything sound horrible. I personally thought that the way they handled Daedalus and Icarus was exceptionally well. The infiltration of MJ12 labs and seeing all the experimentation going on was exceptionally interesting. There was so much fleshed-out dialogue and much more backstory than what IW attempted.

BTW what's the difference between the "take over the world" plot of the first game that's so different from the second one.

In the Dx from the first moment there are strange things happening, and untill the last moment therte is no clear good or bad guy. There are as lot of twists, like that the order and WTO are the same, that aphostelcorp works for JC, and what the Knightstemplar are. The whole game you are finding out thinbgs that rase even more questions and it all wraps up nicly in the end. And the fact that you can piss of a lot of the sides till pretty late has a pretty damn good explenation. The game is also a good social political lesson, unlike the first one that has the plot of b movie.

Really? I found it predictable and often quite unsurprising. There was nothing like when Lebedev was killed by Anna Navarre right when you were starting to unearth something. Instead I experienced something along the lines of this: Billy is my friend, but now she isn't. Oh, now I have to kill her. Who cares?
A good social political lesson? Like the obvious "extremism is bad, mm'kay?" Almost nobody in IW was worth my sympathy, as almost all of them were crooked bastards that were only willing to go the full mile in whichever direction they were set. Aside from the Omar, who pretty much faded into the background for the majority of the game and only served as weapon dealers.

And I'm sorry, but I don't recall any good explanation for being able to murder the people of any faction you wish until the end of the game. If somebody was killing members of my organization, they'd be killed in a heartbeat. You were a double agent throughout the whole game, and nobody wants to work with those. Even if there was an explanation for them being unwilling to kill me, it was still a cheap game tactic.

The lvls may not be as big, but once again atleats they are believeble, cause not every damn thing is gray and they are atleast not empty like in the first one. Which adds to the atmosphere, and makes it a little more believeble.

Deus Ex II was made on updated Unreal tech. You can't bitch about graphical limitations in a game that was developed on the cusp of the new generation. And I still stand by my assertion that the levels in IW were unrealistically small and illogical in that no sane architect would ever build things in such a miniscule fashion. I mean, come on. A weapons factory the size of grade school?

If you wanted to melee, good. In the first the energy sword ruined everything, people who invested in melee were ****ed, cause that kill could have been better out in other areas. Cause with the energy sword was uberstrong in the hands of everyone. The second one was simpler, but with better balance.

Says you. I never used the energy sword. And I found myself fighting a lot more IW, now that you bring that up.

 

[Asknoone]

Dear god, I really can't see how you can make such comparisons. But like I said...your opinion.

The whole coffee war thing wasn't even interesting, to be honest and like I said it felt forced. The girl and her dad not a subplot? Yes, actually, it is - but do you know what else? It doesn't have many twists or turns but what it does do is involve you in the characters in their problems and it's area specific. IW failed to that with it's plastic people.

In IW you knew who your enemies were straight away - the templars. They destroyed your home town, they do this they do that. They are the villains, whether you like it or not. No matter what I did, I was always pushed into fighting the Templars, forget whether it's a game of choice because alot of the time it wasn't. Shoot or go through Vent.

 

[Gray Fox]

Con himself:

Well how come IW flopped and DX1 didn't? You saying the market was wrong and you were right all along but no one else could see it cos you have some amazing 'sense' of what a good game is, that no one else has...

Simple fact is good games will sell, crap ones wont. Crap games may also sell, but thats a different matter entirely.

Gee sry you are completly right, EA is makes the best games. And games like Beyond good & evil, prince of persia:sands of time, sacrifice, messiah were all crap. yeah just keep conning yourself.

By con himself:

IW bastardized Dumier. Why would some socialist crank Bennite idiot suddenly become 'The Man'? JC looked like a different person entirely. The characters were not gritty enough. That jock fag who started crying cos he wanted out of the Omar - who cared about him? Billie Adams - your supposed nemesis had about 3 lines of dialogue the entire game - who cared about her? Your mentor that Arabic Doctor - who cared. In fact who cared about your OWN character. JC Denton in the 1st game had crappy voiceacting too. But at least it was funny in a cheesy kind of way - at least he was cool. In IW your character is about 12 years old. In fact I can't even remember his name - shows what an impact he had on me doesnt it. Care Care Care. None of the characters were interesting.

By absinthe

Really? I found it predictable and often quite unsurprising. There was nothing like when Lebedev was killed by Anna Navarre right when you were starting to unearth something. Instead I experienced something along the lines of this: Billy is my friend, but now she isn't. Oh, now I have to kill her. Who cares?
A good social political lesson? Like the obvious "extremism is bad, mm'kay?" Almost nobody in IW was worth my sympathy, as almost all of them were crooked bastards that were only willing to go the full mile in whichever direction they were set. Aside from the Omar, who pretty much faded into the background for the majority of the game and only served as weapon dealers.

And I'm sorry, but I don't recall any good explanation for being able to murder the people of any faction you wish until the end of the game. If somebody was killing members of my organization, they'd be killed in a heartbeat. You were a double agent throughout the whole game, and nobody wants to work with those. Even if there was an explanation for them being unwilling to kill me, it was still a cheap game tactic.

Samon:

Dear god, I really can't see how you can make such comparisons. But like I said...your opinion.

The whole coffee war thing wasn't even interesting, to be honest and like I said it felt forced. The girl and her dad not a subplot? Yes, actually, it is - but do you know what else? It doesn't have many twists or turns but what it does do is involve you in the characters in their problems and it's area specific. IW failed to that with it's plastic people.

In IW you knew who your enemies were straight away - the templars. They destroyed your home town, they do this they do that. They are the villains, whether you like it or not. No matter what I did, I was always pushed into fighting the Templars, forget whether it's a game of choice because alot of the time it wasn't. Shoot or go through Vent.

You know what people, if you like nice clear characters, no twists, no social comments, predictieve B-movie story, go watch the powerrangers.
If you clealy do not have teh mental capasity to understand, the plot and the characters then just don't play this game. If you don't like well rounded characters who develop troughout the game, make mistakes, suffer for beeing human, rather then a caricature of the troubled teen who fights with her dad, or the wussie dad, then don't play it. And the last comment by samon is simply not true, you don't know from the beginning that it;s the templars, you first think it's the order, and even when the templars start atatcking, a lot of people would symphatize with their motives+ plus near the end you can join em in cairo. And dumier and duclare weren't basteriazed att al, they just grew up, developed in to different charcters and they weren't so bad att all. Their ending is pretty good, you people seem just as ignorant as the templar.

Absinthe:

Deus Ex II was made on updated Unreal tech. You can't bitch about graphical limitations in a game that was developed on the cusp of the new generation. And I still stand by my assertion that the levels in IW were unrealistically small and illogical in that no sane architect would ever build things in such a miniscule fashion. I mean, come on. A weapons factory the size of grade school?

What the **** does it matter that it was on old unreal tech, that doesn't limit you to only using the color grey. In dx2 the places were atleats different in every location. In dx 1 hells kitches is fileld with grey square building. Paris is filled with guess what?
grey square buildings, hong kong, well that had a nice and colorfull market and a lot of grey square buildings. But wait the catacombs were mostly brown

Absinthe:

Says you. I never used the energy sword. And I found myself fighting a lot more IW, now that you bring that up.

Well that you didn't use it says only something about you, it does not comment anything about that particular problem. And that you found yourself fighting in Dx2 a lot more, well again that only says something about you, it seems that was your playstyle. I on the other fought very little, I mostly just used cloak and vision enhacements. And for most of the later game I just past quietly and undetected by those templar in robot suites.

 

[kupocake]

The Deus Ex franchise stabbed itself in the groin and is rolling around asking for medical attention. Legions of betrayed fans and the disbanding of the development team mean that no one is there to help it up, and it sure as hell ain't having any babies again.

 

[Cons Himself]

Gee sry you are completly right, EA is makes the best games. And games like Beyond good & evil, prince of persia:sands of time, sacrifice, messiah were all crap. yeah just keep conning yourself.

Im sure those games you mentioned were generally decent. But im damm sure they werent classics like Deus Ex or Half-Life or FF7 or Quake or C&C etc etc. Classics, whatever the marketing onvolved or lack thereof, will always rise to the top. And the fact is Deus Ex rose to the top, whereas Invisible War flopped.

You know what people, if you like nice clear characters, no twists, no social comments, predictive B-movie story, go watch the power rangers.
If you clealy do not have teh mental capacity to understand, the plot and the characters then just don't play this game. If you don't like well rounded characters who develop troughout the game, make mistakes, suffer for beeing human, rather then a caricature of the troubled teen who fights with her dad, or the wussie dad, then don't play it.
And the last comment by samon is simply not true, you don't know from the beginning that its the templars, you first think it's the order, and even when the templars start attacking, a lot of people would symphatize with their motives plus near the end you can join em in cairo. And dumier and duclare weren't basteriazed at all, they just grew up, developed in to different charcters and they weren't so bad at all. Their ending is pretty good, you people seem just as ignorant as the templar.

Sorry I hope you don't mind - I had to clean up your grammar and spelling and paragraph what you wrote. Even then it doesnt make much sense.
Hmm OK so, we like nice clear characters because we like Deus Ex? OK so Billy Adams and the Jock guy were both examples of well fleshed out characters were they?
Let me remind you about Billie Adams:

Hi Im your friend
**** those researchers were using us - bastards!
Hi I joined the order, come with us
Oh no the order was with the WTO **** them
Im with the Templars now and I want to kill you ahahaha!

Jock:
Im the Best! Look at me, I got the best scores in the tests ahahah how annoying am I?
Im now a mercenary - arent I cool!
Oh no im turning into an Omar Help me Waaaa Waaa crybaby.

These were supposed to be central characters. Billie Adams was supposed to be your nemesis - she has what? 3 meaningful convos with you in the game and after the attack on the training facility you see her once thereafter until the end of the game?

Chad:
Deus Ex: Im a freedom fighter. I hate centralised control: MJ12 AND the Illuminati
IW: Im head of the world government. Im the King. I do what I want. The people dont know best - listen to me, I have to guide them cos I have amazing brainpower!!!

No inconsistency? You blind Barneveld?

Your character:
What was his name again?
Did he care about anyone?
Was I supposed to care about him?
Why did he look 12 years old?

I think this quote shows your stupidity and general lack of thought quite well:

If you don't like well rounded characters who develop troughout the game, make mistakes, suffer for beeing human, rather then a caricature of the troubled teen who fights with her dad, or the wussie dad, then don't play it.

So which characters were well rounded and well developed again? Billie Adams, The Jock, Yourself? You are blatantly playing Devils Advocate. Ive been on the Ion Storm boards for a while before they closed down and no one said IW had good characters.

What the **** does it matter that it was on old unreal tech, that doesn't limit you to only using the color grey. In dx2 the places were atleats different in every location. In dx 1 hells kitches is fileld with grey square building. Paris is filled with guess what?
grey square buildings, hong kong, well that had a nice and colorfull market and a lot of grey square buildings. But wait the catacombs were mostly brown

That's because of a little thing called Art Direction. In Deus Ex 1, they were obviously going for a near-future, grimy, industrial-stagnation kind of look and they got it spot on. Really helped with the atmosphere too that all the backstory fitted in with this vibe.

 

[Absinthe]

What the **** does it matter that it was on old unreal tech, that doesn't limit you to only using the color grey. In dx2 the places were atleats different in every location. In dx 1 hells kitches is fileld with grey square building. Paris is filled with guess what?

What? Do you want concrete painted pink or something? I've just loaded up Deus Ex and started playing it again, but I'm apparently missing all these gigantic grey structures you're talking about.

I will admit that it had a somewhat drab color pallette in most areas. But you know what? It suited the style of the game just fine. DX2, on the other hand, felt like some kind of dumb neo-punk cartoon.

Well that you didn't use it says only something about you, it does not comment anything about that particular problem. And that you found yourself fighting in Dx2 a lot more, well again that only says something about you, it seems that was your playstyle. I on the other fought very little, I mostly just used cloak and vision enhacements. And for most of the later game I just past quietly and undetected by those templar in robot suites.

This applies to the original DX as well. If you had a problem with it, it was of your own doing.

And to say that I lack the mental capacity to comprehend DX2's story is very arrogant of you.
I did understand it. I just didn't care for it. There's a difference.

 

[Asknoone]

Con

And the last comment by samon is simply not true, you don't know from the beginning that it;s the templars, you first think it's the order, and even when the templars start atatcking, a lot of people would symphatize with their motives+ plus near the end you can join em in cairo. And dumier and duclare weren't basteriazed att al, they just grew up, developed in to different charcters and they weren't so bad att all.

No, the beginning does not mean Tarsus, it means Seattle and in Seattle your shown that these chaps are pretty bad, and throughout the game your told the same. That is, until the last 5 minutes.

How can you call us arragont? We don't agree with you thus we don't understand the story? Don't think so, like Absinthe said there's a difference between not liking it, and not understanding it. I'd like to know where I said either of those.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I would like to bring something new to this discusion.


I loved the first game and was disapointed with the demo of the second as stated earlier in the thread..


Basically, I am here to critisise the game in a way other than the just about the plot... Since I don't know the plot..

I did not like the demo because the controls were incredibly stupid, the AI was even more so and the levels and art design seemed really really odd...

The AI was so stupid that one enemy would walk into a flame... set themselves on fire... Then another guard would hear the commotion (Good) and prompty set themselves on fire also (BAAAD!) I killed 4 guards one after the other with just one shot because I accidently shot a gas pipe canister thingie....


I quit it shortly after that, since sneaking arround also seemed utterly pointless because hand to hand combat was near imposible... and definatly not rewarding in any way...

I hate running in with guns blazing. Not my style....

 

[kupocake]

hahaha... unified ammo!

 

[Asknoone]

hahaha... unified ammo!

I hated that

 

[Gray Fox]

Im sure those games you mentioned were generally decent. But im damm sure they werent classics like Deus Ex or Half-Life or FF7 or Quake or C&C etc etc. Classics, whatever the marketing onvolved or lack thereof, will always rise to the top. And the fact is Deus Ex rose to the top, whereas Invisible War flopped.

Each one of those games I mentioned is better than DX, ff7 put together and on par with the rest.

Hi Im your friend
**** those researchers were using us - bastards!
Hi I joined the order, come with us
Oh no the order was with the WTO **** them
Im with the Templars now and I want to kill you ahahaha!

Jock:
Im the Best! Look at me, I got the best scores in the tests ahahah how annoying am I?
Im now a mercenary - arent I cool!
Oh no im turning into an Omar Help me Waaaa Waaa crybaby.

These were supposed to be central characters. Billie Adams was supposed to be your nemesis - she has what? 3 meaningful convos with you in the game and after the attack on the training facility you see her once thereafter until the end of the game?

Chad:
Deus Ex: Im a freedom fighter. I hate centralised control: MJ12 AND the Illuminati
IW: Im head of the world government. Im the King. I do what I want. The people dont know best - listen to me, I have to guide them cos I have amazing brainpower!!!

No inconsistency? You blind Barneveld?

Your character:
What was his name again?
Did he care about anyone?
Was I supposed to care about him?
Why did he look 12 years old?

I think this quote shows your stupidity and general lack of thought quite well:

+

So which characters were well rounded and well developed again? Billie Adams, The Jock, Yourself? You are blatantly playing Devils Advocate. Ive been on the Ion Storm boards for a while before they closed down and no one said IW had good characters.

yes the jock is a good example of well rounded character, for the very reasons you wrote, he develops troughout the game, more so than any character in the first Dx.

Now let me show you your stupidity:

Let me remind you about Billie Adams:

Hi Im your friend
**** those researchers were using us - bastards!
Hi I joined the order, come with us
Oh no the order was with the WTO **** them
Im with the Templars now and I want to kill you ahahaha!

Jock:
Im the Best! Look at me, I got the best scores in the tests ahahah how annoying am I?
Im now a mercenary - arent I cool!
Oh no im turning into an Omar Help me Waaaa Waaa crybaby.

These were supposed to be central characters. Billie Adams was supposed to be your nemesis - she has what? 3 meaningful convos with you in the game and after the attack on the training facility you see her once thereafter until the end of the game?

Chad:
Deus Ex: Im a freedom fighter. I hate centralised control: MJ12 AND the Illuminati
IW: Im head of the world government. Im the King. I do what I want. The people dont know best - listen to me, I have to guide them cos I have amazing brainpower!!!

You just descibed character that are more then one dimensional, and change troughout the game, (weather you liked it or not is of no matter), and yet you fail to see that those are round characters.

Another example:

IW bastardized Dumier. Why would some socialist crank Bennite idiot suddenly become 'The Man'? JC looked like a different person entirely. The characters were not gritty enough. That jock fag who started crying cos he wanted out of the Omar - who cared about him? Billie Adams - your supposed nemesis had about 3 lines of dialogue the entire game - who cared about her? Your mentor that Arabic Doctor - who cared. In fact who cared about your OWN character. JC Denton in the 1st game had crappy voiceacting too. But at least it was funny in a cheesy kind of way - at least he was cool. In IW your character is about 12 years old. In fact I can't even remember his name - shows what an impact he had on me doesnt it. Care Care Care. None of the characters were interesting.

Hmm the fact that you don't care about a character is supposed to be an argument, wow, so I guess becasue Bush believed that In Iraq there were wmd's means that there were. Ahh I can see that your lvl of argumenting is really high and you have all the right to call me stupid. Way to go brainiac.

What? Do you want concrete painted pink or something? I've just loaded up Deus Ex and started playing it again, but I'm apparently missing all these gigantic grey structures you're talking about.

I will admit that it had a somewhat drab color pallette in most areas. But you know what? It suited the style of the game just fine. DX2, on the other hand, felt like some kind of dumb neo-punk cartoon.

+

That's because of a little thing called Art Direction. In Deus Ex 1, they were obviously going for a near-future, grimy, industrial-stagnation kind of look and they got it spot on. Really helped with the atmosphere too that all the backstory fitted in with this vibe.

And you liked that, well thats nice for you. But it seems rather strange that you all liked hong kong the most, especially since that was the lvl with the most colors. But anyway the reason Dx2 looked the way it did is because of a thing called art direction. See the WTO is very rich and wants to keep their people happy, so they build beautiflul buildings. with good architecture, cause thats what people like. Now tha reason the cairo lvl looked like shit is because those people living there were poor and lived like shit, lived in slums. In the first everything was grey, they rich parts, the poor parts, yeah way to set a good and realistic atmosphere.

This applies to the original DX as well. If you had a problem with it, it was of your own doing.

And to say that I lack the mental capacity to comprehend DX2's story is very arrogant of you.
I did understand it. I just didn't care for it. There's a difference.

The second comment I can understand, the first not. WTf are you on about, the second DX did not have the balance problem that the first had, it simply didn't.

No, the beginning does not mean Tarsus, it means Seattle and in Seattle your shown that these chaps are pretty bad, and throughout the game your told the same. That is, until the last 5 minutes.

How can you call us arragont? We don't agree with you thus we don't understand the story? Don't think so, like Absinthe said there's a difference between not liking it, and not understanding it. I'd like to know where I said either of those.

No, No it doesn't. You see a guy in the beginning that looks exactly like the order people, you must be psychic if you knew then that that was someone from the templar.

I would like to bring something new to this discusion.


I loved the first game and was disapointed with the demo of the second as stated earlier in the thread..


Basically, I am here to critisise the game in a way other than the just about the plot... Since I don't know the plot..

I did not like the demo because the controls were incredibly stupid, the AI was even more so and the levels and art design seemed really really odd...

The AI was so stupid that one enemy would walk into a flame... set themselves on fire... Then another guard would hear the commotion (Good) and prompty set themselves on fire also (BAAAD!) I killed 4 guards one after the other with just one shot because I accidently shot a gas pipe canister thingie....


I quit it shortly after that, since sneaking arround also seemed utterly pointless because hand to hand combat was near imposible... and definatly not rewarding in any way...

I hate running in with guns blazing. Not my style....

I didn't encounter any of that in the second game, maybe it's me, maybe they fixed stuff. I rememebr the demo beeing unplayable too.

hahaha... unified ammo!

I loved unified ammo, made you play strategically. The fact that in the first you could have max amo of any gun even if you didn't carry it and that didn't add any wight or restraint seemed totally non fitting in a game like Dx, especially with it's inventory system.

 

[kupocake]

hahaha... pretty shadows that mean f**k all for gameplay!

 

[Asknoone]

No, No it doesn't. You see a guy in the beginning that looks exactly like the order people, you must be psychic if you knew then that that was someone from the templar..

You must be blind if you didn't see the Templar paladin in the inclinator.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Dude, seriously, while I liked DX2, DX beats the shit out of it in every single way possible. Just stop trying to defend it. Please. Your making a fool of yourself and the little credibilty DX2 had...

 

[Warbie]

At the end of the day, Deus Ex is remembered by the majority of ppl who played it as a classic. IW, on the other hand, is only remembered by the majority for what a disappointment it was. It wasn't a bad game, but a long way from beinga great one.

 

[Cons Himself]

Everyone on HL2.net, Everyone who has played both games, hell the whole bloody Internet disagrees with me, but I still know i'm right. I know this because....

Joseph Smith was called a prophet DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!

Even though nobody else ever saw them DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!

Its the only rational explanation - Grey Fox is a Mormon. Only a Mormon could show such stupidity and blind faith in the face of fact

 

[Cole]

Mormons have as much proof as any other religion. You all must accept it lol. No matter how stupid it sounds(South Park had a perfect thing on it), it is just as good as what you believe.

 

[Cons Himself]

Nah not really. Some crack-head yank claiming that Jesus went to America after he died on the cross and was resurrected and taught the other tribe of israel some stuff about his teachings etc. The way this was revealed to him? Magic seeing stones which only he could use. By sticking his head. In a bag.

Yes - not quite as profound as the Sermon on the mount now is it.

 

[Gray Fox]

Looking at all your responses I know for sure Dx2 was better, at least I menaged to gives some reasons and tried to have a reasonable discussion, all that you people can do is bash me and give immature opinions, while avoiding the issues I presented.
I'm gonna stop now, this is like trying to explain to a 5 year old why Citizen Kane is better then Pokemon.

 

[Absinthe]

Grey Fox, you're not in a position to do the manly step-down thing. You were the first to adopt the arrogant "you're too dumb to understand the story" argument and you were the first one to start accusing others of being stupid. The arrogance from your last post alone is so thick that I swear I could smell it.
Don't play ignorant. We gave you our reasons, but you seemed to gloss over them. And how anybody can view the jock dude as a substantially developing character is beyond me. But hey, I guess I'm just too stupid, right?

Yeah, ciao.

But I'm going to argue back any way since I gain some amusement from it.

You just descibed character that are more then one dimensional, and change troughout the game, (weather you liked it or not is of no matter), and yet you fail to see that those are round characters.

About as round as a ****ing toothpick is what you should mean by that. Do they change? Well, yeah. But it's hardly deep. There are no details. And it was all so cliched and predictable that I didn't even bat an eye. Jock dude is a badass and has joined up with the Omar, but then turns into a wimp and wants to back out of it. Billie Adams is your friend, but then she turns into your enemy. You call that rounded out? Sorry, but serving up contrasts does not round out a character, especially when done in such a trite fashion. And in the case of Chad Dumier, there was no rationale for change. If they had properly explained why he changed so much, he could have been interesting. Instead, you just get Chad the asshole with no rhyme or reason.

Hmm the fact that you don't care about a character is supposed to be an argument, wow, so I guess becasue Bush believed that In Iraq there were wmd's means that there were. Ahh I can see that your lvl of argumenting is really high and you have all the right to call me stupid. Way to go brainiac.

You shouldn't be one to talk about crap arguments...

Sorry, but personal connection to characters is not something you can quantify, so his argument does still stand. If you can't develop a personal attachment to a character, then you're left wondering "why bother?". You should want to help your friends. You should want to defeat the bad guy. It's the same way with films and books, and it's not like the rules of general plot development changed just for DX2. Characters are motivating factors involved in a story. If they can't inspire sympathy/hatred/whatever, then they fail to motivate. If they fail to motivate, then I ask myself if I even care about who wins and who loses.

And you liked that, well thats nice for you. But it seems rather strange that you all liked hong kong the most, especially since that was the lvl with the most colors. But anyway the reason Dx2 looked the way it did is because of a thing called art direction. See the WTO is very rich and wants to keep their people happy, so they build beautiflul buildings. with good architecture, cause thats what people like. Now tha reason the cairo lvl looked like shit is because those people living there were poor and lived like shit, lived in slums. In the first everything was grey, they rich parts, the poor parts, yeah way to set a good and realistic atmosphere.

1.) Again, I am not seeing this abundance of gray you are talking about. Regardless, I admitted to the game having a more drab color pallette, but I also argued that it suited the game's general tone and atmosphere.

2.) What the ****? WTO as the spreader of happiness and feel-goodness? What are you going on about? I certainly didn't see this rampant beauty you're referring to. I do, however, recall rooms the size of a shoebox that, if expanded, could have turned into something really nice.

3.) It's not even necessarily a problem with the art direction. If an area was meant to look like shit, then I'm fine with that... so long as it's done well. DX2's environments were not done well. They were small, cramped, and illogical. It was as if all important locations and structures existed only within a few metres of each other. Seeing as how it was attempting to represent a more real-world environment, it failed.

The second comment I can understand, the first not. WTf are you on about, the second DX did not have the balance problem that the first had, it simply didn't.

I am not aware of any imbalance in the original DX and you are the first and only person who I've ever heard speak of one.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I'd like to agree that from everything I've seen of DE2 it has NOTHING on DE in terms of a sense of scale...


And DE was cooler! :cheese:

 

[Gray Fox]

Grey Fox, you're not in a position to do the manly step-down thing. You were the first to adopt the arrogant "you're too dumb to understand the story" argument and you were the first one to start accusing others of being stupid. The arrogance from your last post alone is so thick that I swear I could smell it.
Don't play ignorant. We gave you our reasons, but you seemed to gloss over them. And how anybody can view the jock dude as a substantially developing character is beyond me. But hey, I guess I'm just too stupid, right?

Yeah, ciao.

Look at the points you people made, I had every reason to be arrogant. You were the one just bashing me and Dx2 without giving any good points.

About as round as a ****ing toothpick is what you should mean by that. Do they change? Well, yeah. But it's hardly deep. There are no details. And it was all so cliched and predictable that I didn't even bat an eye. Jock dude is a badass and has joined up with the Omar, but then turns into a wimp and wants to back out of it. Billie Adams is your friend, but then she turns into your enemy. You call that rounded out? Sorry, but serving up contrasts does not round out a character, especially when done in such a trite fashion. And in the case of Chad Dumier, there was no rationale for change. If they had properly explained why he changed so much, he could have been interesting. Instead, you just get Chad the asshole with no rhyme or reason.

Chad is not persay an asshole, he explained very well why he and nicolette did what they did, and the fact that in your mind it's that simple says a lot about you.
Second, the fact that you did not like the jock and his transformation does not mean it's not a round character, i nany case he and the rest of teh characters were more rounded than any character in DX1, so there go's your argument for Dx1.

You shouldn't be one to talk about crap arguments...

Sorry, but personal connection to characters is not something you can quantify, so his argument does still stand. If you can't develop a personal attachment to a character, then you're left wondering "why bother?". You should want to help your friends. You should want to defeat the bad guy. It's the same way with films and books, and it's not like the rules of general plot development changed just for DX2. Characters are motivating factors involved in a story. If they can't inspire sympathy/hatred/whatever, then they fail to motivate. If they fail to motivate, then I ask myself if I even care about who wins and who loses.

Thata a matter of opinion, I couldn't develope a personal connection with any of the characters in teh first, cause the ywere hardly characters, but cold caricatures without any deeper personality. The characters in Dx2 were way better, the they developed, they made desicions, explained them very well. They had good motivations. All of the sides had a good reason to do things, there wereno clear good ro bad guys. Unlike in Dx1. It's Dx1 that failed to motivate, its dx1 that had a generic plot. The plot of Dx2 was pretty original for a game, the way it was worked out was also pretty original.
The fact that this game is hated by a lot of you proves it. MGS2 was also hated, and yet it's plot was brilliant, on par with the best of movies and books. It was simply hated by ignorant people like you.

1.) Again, I am not seeing this abundance of gray you are talking about. Regardless, I admitted to the game having a more drab color pallette, but I also argued that it suited the game's general tone and atmosphere.

2.) What the ****? WTO as the spreader of happiness and feel-goodness? What are you going on about? I certainly didn't see this rampant beauty you're referring to. I do, however, recall rooms the size of a shoebox that, if expanded, could have turned into something really nice.

3.) It's not even necessarily a problem with the art direction. If an area was meant to look like shit, then I'm fine with that... so long as it's done well. DX2's environments were not done well. They were small, cramped, and illogical. It was as if all important locations and structures existed only within a few metres of each other. Seeing as how it was attempting to represent a more real-world environment, it failed.

about the second point: the WTO did wan to make their citizens happy, thats the point, keep them ignorant of the troubles of the people living in shit. They make theri cities beautifull, to show that the WTO way is teh right way, that it brings wealth and happines to it's citizens. Why would they amke evrything grey.

about point 3) the only place that is true for is the german place. Everything else made sense, cairo slums made sense, the pyramid thing made very good sense, it is supposed to be compact, seattle had only one important building and the rest were bars appertments, it all made very good sense. Besides it doesn't even need to make sense, it's a game, would you rather had it been miles further away, so that you had to walk for an hour just to get from one place to another. What's important is that the lvl accomodate different styles of play well, and offer multiple solutions, which Dx2 did better then Dx1.

I am not aware of any imbalance in the original DX and you are the first and only person who I've ever heard speak of one.

Well you should be awar about it by now, I posted it. And the fact that I'm the only one is a sensless argument. Your just avoiding discussion about it in a cheap way.
Fact is that in Dx1 you could kill almost every dude in one blow to the head with the energy sword, regardless if you had invested in melee or not, and that screwed the melee people, thier investment was useless, it would have been better to invest in something else, but by then it was to late.+ playing stealthy was way less effective in Dx1 than in Dx2.

 

[Absinthe]

Look at the points you people made, I had every reason to be arrogant. You were the one just bashing me and Dx2 without giving any good points.

When did I bash you? And what exactly is subpar about my points?

Chad is not persay an asshole, he explained very well why he and nicolette did what they did, and the fact that in your mind it's that simple says a lot about you.

First of all, screw you. If you want to get into a stupid pissing contest and do nothing but make lame jabs at my character, then I cordially invite you to **** yourself. Second of all, it was the entire character of Chad Dumier that changed. Not just his status. He was fighting again secret world governments in the first game only to end up running one in the end. You might see that delightful irony. I see it as nonsensical and without reason.

Second, the fact that you did not like the jock and his transformation does not mean it's not a round character, i nany case he and the rest of teh characters were more rounded than any character in DX1, so there go's your argument for Dx1.

There was more reason to care for characters in Deus Ex. Gunther Hermann was delightfully stereotypical as a giant Austrian mech. J Manderley actually came off as a guy having the screws tightened down around him. Having to deal with the Renton's issues was involving. And having your brother affected by his killswitch and giving you the option to flee or stay and fight was more than anything DX2 offered.
Now was it perfect? No. It did have flaws. It was not one of the game's strengths, I felt. But I found DX2 to be worse.

Also, in the future please actually address my arguments instead of discrediting them with a big vague generalization (ie. "DX2 had better characters, so nyah").

Thata a matter of opinion, I couldn't develope a personal connection with any of the characters in teh first, cause the ywere hardly characters, but cold caricatures without any deeper personality. The characters in Dx2 were way better, the they developed, they made desicions, explained them very well. They had good motivations. All of the sides had a good reason to do things, there wereno clear good ro bad guys. Unlike in Dx1. It's Dx1 that failed to motivate, its dx1 that had a generic plot. The plot of Dx2 was pretty original for a game, the way it was worked out was also pretty original.
The fact that this game is hated by a lot of you proves it. MGS2 was also hated, and yet it's plot was brilliant, on par with the best of movies and books. It was simply hated by ignorant people like you.

Now I'm ignorant, eh?

Grey Fox, I'm not even sure if I want to to touch this. If the best that your pathetic reasoning can come up with is the rationale that I hate the game because it actually is good, then you're ****ed in the head. Sorry mate, but you are.

For the record:

1) I have never claimed to hate DX2. I have stated that I think the original is better.
2) You are contradictory. You say it's a matter of preference, but then turn right around to assert correctness (with the weakest of arguments, might I add).
3) The quality of MGS2's story is for a different topic and you've made an irrelevant and false link. Accusing me of hating MGS2 as well (without any sufficient evidence to support this) only serves as a pointless attack on my tastes, so kindly STFU.

about the second point: the WTO did wan to make their citizens happy, thats the point, keep them ignorant of the troubles of the people living in shit. They make theri cities beautifull, to show that the WTO way is teh right way, that it brings wealth and happines to it's citizens. Why would they amke evrything grey.

My memory of DX2 is hazy in some areas. If what you're saying is true, that the WTO made pretty cities to make people happy (or some stupid garbage like that), then I think you've only affirmed my stance that DX2 has a weaker plot.
I don't get where you're going with the whole grey thing. DX2 takes place at a different time and in a different atmosphere from the first game. And not everything in DX is gray. Not even half of it. [Insert drab color pallette comment ad nauseum, despite the fact you ignore it every time].

about point 3) the only place that is true for is the german place. Everything else made sense, cairo slums made sense, the pyramid thing made very good sense, it is supposed to be compact, seattle had only one important building and the rest were bars appertments, it all made very good sense. Besides it doesn't even need to make sense, it's a game, would you rather had it been miles further away, so that you had to walk for an hour just to get from one place to another.

No, it didn't make sense. I'll walk down from a helipad (which are generally quite big) and walk two feet behind some alley and WHOAH! Stairs leading straight to a bar! Nothing else? No other roads? No other methods of transportation? Why the Hell is there a landing pad out in the middle of nowhere? Does it make sense to have every important building stuffed within two metres of each other? Why is a weapons factory the size of a grade school? Why are WTO headquarters so small? Oh, that's right. 64 MB RAM limitations. Gotcha.
No, I would not prefer running around for an hour. I would, however, prefer more space. Hell's Kitchen in the original DX had the right idea. Areas were nicely spaced out. There were pathways leading elsewhere. There were manholes I could venture into. I could climb onto the roofs and snipe people if I wished. It just made more sense and it felt more free.

What's important is that the lvl accomodate different styles of play well, and offer multiple solutions, which Dx2 did better then Dx1.

And yet you've offered no examples to support this. None. None at all.

Well you should be awar about it by now, I posted it. And the fact that I'm the only one is a sensless argument. Your just avoiding discussion about it in a cheap way.

No, I'm just questioning your rationality. You are the only person to mention it thus far. For a game that's won numerous GOTY, has a sizable fan following, and has been hailed as one of the best games of all time, you'd think somebody would have found this out earlier.

Fact is that in Dx1 you could kill almost every dude in one blow to the head with the energy sword, regardless if you had invested in melee or not, and that screwed the melee people, thier investment was useless,

I never played as a melee person, so I can't verify this. But again, I see nobody else bitching. So you're either exaggerating things ridiculously or melee people obviously didn't feel as screwed over as you paint them to be.

it would have been better to invest in something else, but by then it was to late.+ playing stealthy was way less effective in Dx1 than in Dx2.

Again, no examples to support this. Your entire argument rests on blanket statements.

 

[Asknoone]

We are not bashing you, you are bashing us - we were simply posting legitimate responses and you didn't like them, thus dropping to the level of: "WA WA WA, your all dumb."

That is not a legitimate response.

Absinthe is absolutley correct in his deductions. The one I mostly agree about is how ilogical the levels in IW are. Cramped, pointless and annoying. I couldn't turn left or right without bumping into a loading time.

I was unable to wander and enjoy myself without turning around the plastic characters and boring streets. The only level worthy of mention, if it is even worthy is quite possibly Seatle - but again, a squashy level.

I never once said i did not like IW, i enjoyed the game but it was simply not on par with Deus ex.

 

[Cons Himself]

i think all of Grey Fox's arguments come down to :
DX2 had better characters because it did.
DX2 had better levels because it did.

etc etc. no point arguing with the troll tbh. any respect i had for the guy went away when he started claiming billie adams and the jock were rounded characters.

compared to?

Manderley - The guy was originally good, but he was feeling the pressure from above. He was basically a decent guy but a coward since he didnt have the guts to stand up to FEMA, when im sure a man of his intelligence knew something was not quite right.

Hermann - Very serious character, you could tell he took himself immensely seriously, yet this was funny in a weird kind of way. You really got the impression he was after you the whole time if you killed Anna Navvare. One of the best bits is where Jock and you take off in the Chopper and Herman turns up a second later Get away! The showdown with him was brilliant.

The MiBs - I dont know if anyone noticed, but in the Castle level, you find an MiBs handbook. The quasi-religious language, and hierarchical structure of the MiBs was really quite scary and warped. The way they are brainwashed and implanted to become automatons was actually kinda scary.

Your Brother - I dunno if this is just cos I have a bro myself, but I really wanted to save Paul Denton when his killswitch is activated. Why should I give a shit about the Jock in DX2?

The Triads - This was really fun trying to get them to come together. Very funny

Maggie Chow - God I hated this biatch hehe. I really wanted to kill her after I found out what a slimey greaseball she was. And her ****in maid

Simmons - Great G Man type character. Very shady. That bit where you get to read about his augs in am edical report really helps you later on in the game when you have to face him. The showdown was cool too

Navvare - ****in Nazi, killing all those poor people in Hells Kitchen I was so happy that I wasted her


And the best bit of the game? After you take the Commander captive in the 1st level - the UNATCO trooper comes up the stairs. I wasted him hehe - feeling homicidal. Not only did I get a dressing down from Maderley for killing the Commander, but also he kind of hints that he knew it was me who wasted the soldier And the way JC lies to his face is great

 

[Gray Fox]

You people either pretend or ignore my previous posts, I'm certainly in no mood to argue with people who either make false quotes, ignore posts, make stuff up, and simply lack the capacity to to engage in a decent argument.

 

[kupocake]

You people either pretend or ignore my previous posts, I'm certainly in no mood to argue with people who either make false quotes, ignore posts, make stuff up, and simply lack the capacity to to engage in a decent argument.

I think the rest of them could say the same of you

 

[Asknoone]

You people either pretend or ignore my previous posts, I'm certainly in no mood to argue with people who either make false quotes, ignore posts, make stuff up, and simply lack the capacity to to engage in a decent argument.

Practice what you preach

 

[DeusExMachina]

Some reason, this thread has made me begin a DX3 fan fiction...I think I'll post the first chapter in here when I'm finished. .

 

[Cons Himself]

should Grey Fox be a character on Maddox's page?

 

[Gray Fox]

Practice what you preach

I do, but this is what I'm confronted with:

Cons himself
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Fox
Everyone on HL2.net, Everyone who has played both games, hell the whole bloody Internet disagrees with me, but I still know i'm right. I know this because....

Joseph Smith was called a prophet DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!

Even though nobody else ever saw them DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!


Its the only rational explanation - Grey Fox is a Mormon. Only a Mormon could show such stupidity and blind faith in the face of fact

But what can I say, you all dragged me down to your level and won by experience, I mean how can I beat the poster above. He's a genius.

 

[Asknoone]

No, no and no. You were talking about everyone, not just Cons Himself. You were addressing all who have opposed your opinion, or raised arguments against it. Which in fact, is there opinion. Which you have a problem with.

Your rude and when you don't like what you're reading you throw some insult at someone, calling us dumb and stating we didn't understand the story when we dam well do understand the story, we just don't like it. Does. that. compute.

This is not about beating the other poster, it is about being argumentive civily, discussing elements of your opinion and anothers. But this is the internet, what do you know.

And do you know what else? It is you who came out with outburts of anger, calling us arragont. You have brought this thread to what it is, here have a cookie.

We have all presented valid arguments, so don't address us a whole. Take your cookie and go practice what you preach.

 

[Cons Himself]

its called a joke Grey Fox, if you dont see it, you will never get it.