Discrimination of the sexes - conscription

[Kaptain H]

I'm strongly against the notion of gender equality in the military and police. I just don't think they have what it takes to act appropriately when the bullets start flying. I've no military experience, but I have encountered women police officers quite a lot. For the most part they're as good as anyone else, but when the shit hits the fan or violence sparks off, they're usually just seen standing around not really knowing what to do.

Anecdotal.

 

[Yuri]

I'm strongly against the notion of gender equality in the military and police. I just don't think they have what it takes to act appropriately when the bullets start flying. I've no military experience, but I have encountered women police officers quite a lot. For the most part they're as good as anyone else, but when the shit hits the fan or violence sparks off, they're usually just seen standing around not really knowing what to do.

Yeeesh. Damn son, that's cold.

Sure, draft everybody. But don't draft anyone in the US I will go oh so pissed.

 

[Solaris]

Come on, it's not the cool thing to say but say you had to go and kick some ass for some reason, would you chose a female in your social group to come with you or the lads?

Obviously men are better at physical activity, there is a clear evolutionary reason for this. I'm not saying men are worth more than women, to the species an individual man is probably worth less genetically, thats why women and children get first dibs on the life boats. However, military fighting roles should be strictly men only.

Alternatively, set the minimum physical limits identical for both men and women, and then let women in if they can pass it.

 

[Robbo]

Speaking of navies, I've heard that your Rudd's been building a giant navy for Australia. What gives?

Need to keep out the damn immigrants..... and I'm not joking I think thats part of the reason, people keep trying to get here on crappy boats from Indonesia. Also I think the government here is aiming to use the military to stabilize the Pacific region so a larger navy would help in... I don't know scaring island nations or something. They're also double the number of submarines.

My sources include stuff I've heard on the radio so there may be a better explanation somewhere.

Also I think I should explain at this point that in Australia the army is mostly used for peacekeeping where there is little actual fighting and aid distribution. So we are probably better able to utilize women in 'on the ground' roles.

 

[Kaptain H]

Come on, it's not the cool thing to say but say you had to go and kick some ass for some reason, would you chose a female in your social group to come with you or the lads?

Obviously men are better at physical activity, there is a clear evolutionary reason for this. I'm not saying men are worth more than women, to the species an individual man is probably worth less genetically, thats why women and children get first dibs on the life boats. However, military fighting roles should be strictly men only.

Alternatively, set the minimum physical limits identical for both men and women, and then let women in if they can pass it.

As someone with no plans to contribute to the population of the species, I'm sick of the lifeboat mentality. I don't consider one person's life more valuable than another, certainly not on the basis of gender, and I would never want to be treated as if this is truly so. I find that the one with an issue with this idea is the one with the problem.

Also, for the record, throughout the duration of my military service, I was always able to max the PT requirements for my category (age included), and fall squarely within the range of my male peers. I can name a handful of other soldiers who could do the same. As for mental integrity, I have also seen male soldiers cry, with actual tears running down their faces, over a situation as trivial as failing to simply drink a full canteen of water when ordered.

Everyone is different, but ultimately I would like to see more conformity, objectivity and behavioral discipline among soldiers. This is most important. And I agree that in situations where physical strength is called for, all units must be able to meet the basic standards to be considered fit for the task.

 

[15357]

Agreed all around. When I was at the language institute, I was regularly around a broad range of military types, as it was army-operated joint service base. I always found the difference between my disciplined and fit female friends in the army versus the red nail-painted airmen who couldn't do a push-up or take apart an M16 stark and disappointing. It was a completely different attitude, though I'd say it went for males as well.

But as was said earlier, we have recruitment offices where you can enlist. You go through some basic training of military fundamentals and show that you're "entry level" physically fit, and it's through the recruitment process that you take a battery of tests to determine what jobs you qualify for. At least, that's how it was before 9/11. Like, I took a test for language aptitude, went in as a cryptologic linguist, and after basic training, I received orders to learn Chinese.

Cool. So you just go, and they choose for you?

Heck, if I was ordered to learn Chinese, I don't know if I could. You must have some pretty badass linguistic skills. :E



On topic: It's interesting that you guys agree (mostly) with this new system of equality. My logic is pretty simple: If you can vote, you can be conscripted. If you don't want to be, you have no business voting.

Btw, for obvious reasons, I don't really think they should create mixed-sex units.

 

[MFL]

the language institute

Ft. Huachuca?

Also, what language you learn is based on your individual ability to learn languages, determined by one of the weirdest tests ever.

 

[Kaptain H]

Ft. Huachuca?

Also, what language you learn is based on your individual ability to learn languages, determined by one of the weirdest tests ever.

Good guess, but no. Defense Language Institute in Monterrey, CA. And lol, tell me about it. I seriously laughed my way through the DLAB, don't know how I understood a word they were saying.

 

[Tyguy]

The military has different standards for men and women. If the US adopted a draft I would be against women being put into combat situations unless they can meet the same requirements as men. I can't see the logic in an argument to the contrary.

 

[CptStern]

canada doesnt have a draft and never will (ww2 made sure of that). that said there's plenty of women in canadian military; they're equal to their male counterparts as they're sent into combat roles in war zones like afghanistan.

 

[Mogi67]

Something needs to be done about the sexual abuse of women in the military first. A 30% rape rate is bullshit. The fact that it's trivialized is an outrage. Any soldiers involved should be criminally charged and then kicked the **** out of their pseudo-society

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/17/eveningnews/main4872713.shtml
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13rd-of-women-in-us-military-raped/

 

[Kaptain H]

Something needs to be done about the sexual abuse of women in the military first. A 30% rape rate is bullshit. The fact that it's trivialized is an outrage. Any soldiers involved should be criminally charged and then kicked the **** out of their pseudo-society

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/17/eveningnews/main4872713.shtml
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13rd-of-women-in-us-military-raped/

Full UCMJ and criminal prosecution is the way to go. I was greatly surprised by the stark difference in mentality towards women on a predominantly MI base with nearly 30% women versus places where they were maybe 10% at best. It's the culture of acceptance and tolerance of these acts that bothers me the most, but there's also the issue of the army allowing people with clear psychological issues to join and stick around. I work at at studio with practically no females at all (just a handful of QA/HR), yet I have no fear of rape from day to day. These are problems with the military culture itself and need to be dealt with.

 

[Solaris]

Something needs to be done about the sexual abuse of women in the military first. A 30% rape rate is bullshit. The fact that it's trivialized is an outrage. Any soldiers involved should be criminally charged and then kicked the **** out of their pseudo-society

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/17/eveningnews/main4872713.shtml
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13rd-of-women-in-us-military-raped/

That sounds like a bullshit statistic to me, I find it very hard to believe. But if true, it's further evidence that women and the military don't mix, however I just don't believe it. How about a better source than 'newsjunkie'.

 

[Neutrino]

The Pentagon's latest figures show that nearly 3,000 women were sexually assaulted in fiscal year 2008, up 9% from the year before; among women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, the number rose 25%. When you look at the entire universe of female veterans, close to a third say they were victims of rape or assault while they were serving — twice the rate in the civilian population.
(See the top 10 crime stories of 2009.)
The problem is even worse than that. The Pentagon estimates that 80% to 90% of sexual assaults go unreported,

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1968110,00.html

But if true, it's further evidence that women and the military don't mix

Now that is bullshit. The veneer of your sexist "reasoning" is getting a bit thin.

 

[Kaptain H]

That sounds like a bullshit statistic to me, I find it very hard to believe. But if true, it's further evidence that women and the military don't mix, however I just don't believe it. How about a better source than 'newsjunkie'.

Fair enough to question the methodology and sampling of the study (it doesn't relate to the modern military), but it could be just as easily "argued" that rapists and the military don't mix. :|

 

[Krynn72]

Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Greece etc. aren't advanced countries?

Governments forcing people to participate in the killing of other people doesn't register as a morally advanced establishment to me, no.

Also, Solaris you should go over to the Middle East and find yourself one of those places where fathers kill their daughters for getting raped. Sounds like you'd mesh well with them.

 

[Johndo]

Cool. So you just go, and they choose for you?

Heck, if I was ordered to learn Chinese, I don't know if I could. You must have some pretty badass linguistic skills. :E



On topic: It's interesting that you guys agree (mostly) with this new system of equality. My logic is pretty simple: If you can vote, you can be conscripted. If you don't want to be, you have no business voting.

Btw, for obvious reasons, I don't really think they should create mixed-sex units.

Come on, it's not the cool thing to say but say you had to go and kick some ass for some reason, would you chose a female in your social group to come with you or the lads?

Obviously men are better at physical activity, there is a clear evolutionary reason for this. I'm not saying men are worth more than women, to the species an individual man is probably worth less genetically, thats why women and children get first dibs on the life boats. However, military fighting roles should be strictly men only.

Alternatively, set the minimum physical limits identical for both men and women, and then let women in if they can pass it.

set a bar that both men and women must hit. Let the ones who pass go. If you're reasoning is that women just can't do it because.... their women, you're probably not that knowledge of the real world. And trying to base abilities of a female soldier and female cop is incredibly dumb.

 

[Kaptain H]

Cool. So you just go, and they choose for you?

Heck, if I was ordered to learn Chinese, I don't know if I could. You must have some pretty badass linguistic skills. :E

Sorry, totally missed seeing this post. But uh, sort of. I actually though I was going in for Spanish. The military divides languages by their difficulty and relationship to English into categories I-IV, IV being the hardest. The DLAB measures your language-learning aptitude, and your score along with what is needed at the time determine what language you are assigned. When I joined in 2000, Korean, Arabic, Farsi and Spanish were the most popular. Not sure how I ended up with Mandarin, but my score was very high.

That said, Mandarin Chinese is ridiculously easy, in terms of speaking and listening, vocabulary and grammar. It's the damned reading and writing that get you D:

 

[Tyguy]

If you're reasoning is that women just can't do it because.... their women, you're probably not that knowledge of the real world. And trying to base abilities of a female soldier and female cop is incredibly dumb.

it's not his fault women evolved to be physically inferior...there is no reasonable argument that men and women are equal on the battlefield. this isn't sexism, it's ****ing logic. let the women who survive boot camp do whatever they want, the rest can push papers or do any of the millions of other jobs the military provides, just like the pussy men who cry when they're yelled at.

and the comparison of a female soldier and a cop is not dumb. you still have the case of physicality not being in their favor. not to say i'm against female cops but the bar should not be lowered simply to entertain the notion of equality.

/sound logic

 

[Johndo]

it's not his fault women evolved to be physically inferior...there is no reasonable argument that men and women are equal on the battlefield. this isn't sexism, it's ****ing logic. let the women who survive boot camp do whatever they want, the rest can push papers or do any of the millions of other jobs the military provides, just like the pussy men who cry when they're yelled at.

and the comparison of a female soldier and a cop is not dumb. you still have the case of physicality not being in their favor. not to say i'm against female cops but the bar should not be lowered simply to entertain the notion of equality.

/sound logic

... you're making the same argument as me but you're not agreeing with what I say?

 

[Neutrino]

For more direct info on the problem of sexual assault in the military:

http://www.sapr.mil/index.php/annual-reports

 

[Krynn72]

*Stupid shit*

First off, thats exactly what happens as far as I am aware. People are assigned positions that fit best for them after basic training. Secondly I seriously doubt the physical requirements of modern day battlefields are so physically demanding that the slight evolutionary edge men have would make much of a difference.

And the cop comparison was made in regards to the mental capacities of a woman officer. He said they just hurf durf'd around like idiots when something happened because they're lololol stupid women lolol. He then used that "point" as an argument as to why women shouldn't be soldiers. So yeah, it was a stupid comparison.

 

[Tyguy]

I seriously doubt the physical requirements of modern day battlefields are so physically demanding that the slight evolutionary edge men have would make much of a difference.

it's much more than a slight edge and it absolutely makes a difference. i'll eat my words if you feel like you have only a "slight" advantage in kicking the shit out of your girlfriend/wife/whatever...assuming you aren't dating a linebacker or a girl who can palm a medicine ball

 

[MFL]

Guns.

 

[Tyguy]

Guns.

I immediately thought of this for some reason.

"The enemy cannot push a button (use a gun) if you disable his hand!"

"Medic!"

 

[Solaris]

First off, thats exactly what happens as far as I am aware. People are assigned positions that fit best for them after basic training. Secondly I seriously doubt the physical requirements of modern day battlefields are so physically demanding that the slight evolutionary edge men have would make much of a difference.

Come of it. The amount of shit the average soldier in Afghanistan must have to carry on operations looks huge. Men have a massive physical advantage.

I also sincerely do not see what benefits there are to introducing women to a military environment, it means you have to set up separate quarters, toilets and all that. It also seems it is impractical becuase they end up getting raped most of the time. With such high levels it's obvious that that means military life is what causes it and not just bad apples.

War always has and should remain the buisiness of men.

 

[CptStern]

Come of it. The amount of shit the average soldier in Afghanistan must have to carry on operations looks huge. Men have a massive physical advantage.

I also sincerely do not see what benefits there are to introducing women to a military environment, it means you have to set up separate quarters, toilets and all that. It also seems it is impractical becuase they end up getting raped most of the time. With such high levels it's obvious that that means military life is what causes it and not just bad apples.

War always has and should remain the buisiness of men.

yet canada is in the same warzone as the UK and has female soldiers in combat roles. in fact UK soldiers have served alongside canadian female soldiers in several campaigns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mountain_Thrust

this canadian soldier was killed in a firefight with insurgents

you're being sexist and ignorant

 

[Tyguy]

War always has and should remain the buisiness of men.

There's no room for a woman in a dick measuring contest, which is the premise of war anyway.

"They have bigger dicks?...BOMB THEM!" -George Carlin

Obviously I'm being facetious but nevertheless, if you don't adopt a physical standard for soldiers who face combat you are hampering your effectiveness.

 

[KiplingsCat]

I also sincerely do not see what benefits there are to introducing women to a military environment

Being free thinking individuals, they might wish to go to war themselves.

It also seems it is impractical becuase they end up getting raped most of the time.

Then get rid of the rapists, not the women. Is that really too much of an inconvenience?

 

[MFL]

Heaven forbid we get rid of the rapists.

 

[Tyguy]

Is that really too much of an inconvenience?

It shouldn't be but considering the values which are instilled in men by the military, it's not surprising a predominately male environment would be more apt to this kind of behavior.

You know better than any of us the likelihood of the military actually taking noticeable steps to deter this shit.

 

[KiplingsCat]

Be that as it may, women still have the right to be in the army without getting raped. Predominately male environment or not, rape is still completely inexcusable. I would question the values taught by the military that would allow such an environment to exist. And yes, it's highly unlikely that anyone would take real steps to change this. That's the sad truth of life.

 

[Solaris]

I just think women in many military roles are an absolute example of political correctness 'gone mad'. As much as I hate to say it, it's not hard to think of plenty of situations where women being treated the same as men in the military would **** things up.

-Your jeep is rocketed and is onfire, you are unconscious and need to be pulled out. However, the only surviving/available team member is a women who is not strong enough becuase women have lower strength requirements.

-You're engaged into physical hand-to-hand combat for some reason, perhaps: No ammo, Captured, need to use non-lethal force, whatever. Your partner is a women, she is easily overpowered by the average man.

-You serve on a nuclear sub, the women, perhaps she is raped or has consensual sex and gets pregnant. Now when the sub which should be hidden underwater for months on end has to surface to get a pregnant women off it. Never mind the problems caused by naked women showering with men.


Clearly there are real differences between men and women. No gender is superior, but we should realise that women are unsuited to combat roles.

 

[Raziaar]

I just think women in many military roles are an absolute example of political correctness 'gone mad'. As much as I hate to say it, it's not hard to think of plenty of situations where women being treated the same as men in the military would **** things up.

-Your jeep is rocketed and is onfire, you are unconscious and need to be pulled out. However, the only surviving/available team member is a women who is not strong enough becuase women have lower strength requirements.

-You're engaged into physical hand-to-hand combat for some reason, perhaps: No ammo, Captured, need to use non-lethal force, whatever. Your partner is a women, she is easily overpowered by the average man.

-You serve on a nuclear sub, the women, perhaps she is raped or has consensual sex and gets pregnant. Now when the sub which should be hidden underwater for months on end has to surface to get a pregnant women off it. Never mind the problems caused by naked women showering with men.


Clearly there are real differences between men and women. No gender is superior, but we should realise that women are unsuited to combat roles.

It seems to me you're saying that women are inferior, particularly when it pertains to combat roles.


And political correctness gone mad? Give me a ****ing break.

You're just being sexist Solaris.

 

[15357]

-You serve on a nuclear sub, the women, perhaps she is raped or has consensual sex and gets pregnant. Now when the sub which should be hidden underwater for months on end has to surface to get a pregnant women off it. Never mind the problems caused by naked women showering with men.

Well, that's one of the reasons why I think mixed-sex units are a bad idea.

You want to crew a submarine? Make it a all-boys or all-girls club. No real reason to have it any other way.


One of the main reasons I believe women should serve in combat or combat-subsidiary roles is because of manpower. I mean, sure, people in the US or China have lots of meat for the grinder. We don't. Truth be told, I couldn't care less if women are relatively unsuited for combat - if they can shoot a gun, good, we get more people to man the front lines and keep all of us safe from the communist hordes. Heavens forbid if we lost the ****ing war because we couldn't find enough males to crew equipment.

Again, if their strength is lacking (which also goes for males too) make them do something that requires less strength - perhaps driving a tank around. I don't really see the difference from making a skinny kid who got a Class 3 in his physicals frontline infantry (and that also goes for other militaries, too, not just Korea) and making a woman man a machine gun.

Actually, I think that women may be more suitable for driving around tanks and APCs, because they're smaller in build.

 

[CptStern]

I just think women in many military roles are an absolute example of political correctness 'gone mad'. As much as I hate to say it, it's not hard to think of plenty of situations where women being treated the same as men in the military would **** things up.

you can have all the opinions you want ..doesnt make it true to any measureable extent. there are real world examples of women in military roles that completely debunk every single point you've made. so really why are you still arguing the contrary when you're so obviously wrong?

 

[KiplingsCat]

Since combat has been moulded and shaped by men for men for centuries, this is naturally the case. If (hypothetically) it was traditionally women who went to war and men who stayed home with the screaming babies, things would be different. Women would have shaped the history of combat and made it to suit themselves. The attributes of men which we define to be advantages in a combat situation may have been irrelevant or may even have disadvantaged them. And yes, traditionally women were told to stay home because men are stronger. But it was men who decided how war would be. Women were given no say in the matter whatever. War never had to be the way it is. In an alternate world, the definition of war could be something completely different. It has always seemed like such a random and bizarre situation to me. Like a coin-toss. Whether or not somebody is "suited to combat" is entirely subjective really, depending on what you define combat to be in the first place.

Edit: I'm really just throwing this out in a philosophical sort of way. War is what it is.

 

[Solaris]

I will concede this point.

It would be perfectly acceptable to me, if the military allowed all genders in all roles, if and only with identical minimum strength and fitness requirements.

Would anyone argue against that?

 

[Remus]

Actually, I think that women may be more suitable for driving around tanks and APCs, because they're smaller in build.

Women can't drive. LOLOLOLOL

 

[Vegeta897]

Women should only be female assassins running around in skintight body suits and jumping 20 feet in the air with a silenced pistol and possibly turning invisible.