dm_plaza17 Open Testing

[Dario D.]

I'm about to release this map, but I need public input on any/all issues before-hand, so I can get everything right.

Server owners, please download and run this map on your server, so you can see if you'll want to add the final draft to the map-rotation (of course you will), and so that you can let me know if you find any issues (the real reason). :dozey:

http://www.deefrag.com/Files/Plaza17 Beta.zip

If you find any issues with the map, please email me at [email protected]

I can't release this map till it gets some online testing... and if you do, please let me know your IP, so I can watch. That's the most important part. Thanks.

 

[infamy]

Yay! New map. We'll try it out this evening.

p.s. - we're a windows server. Be sure someone tests it on Linux for you.

 

[jocky68]

Nice map mate, nicely done, plenty nooks and crannys. Only thing i noticed so far was the sunlight no matter where you are shines bright when you look at it, like through walls etc, good job.

 

[Dario D.]

The sunlight is showing through walls?

Wtf?... I'll recompile it, hold on.

 

[jocky68]

Yeh through walls and stuff, not that it is that noticable though, stand under the bridge and look up towards the sun.

 

[G-Dub]

Anyone have IPs for servers running this? Gonna give it a try.

 

[infamy]

Honestly, the frames were so low in places on my machine (P4 3.2, 1 gig, ATI 9800pro) that I couldn't bring myself to put it on the server.

I think for it to be successful, you're going to have to do a lot of optimization. I was getting <20fps in spots. That's going to be unplayable on even a small server.

It looks fabulous, I'll give you that - and I think it has potential. But as it stands, I don't think you will have a very successful launch.

 

[Physicles]

Glad to see you're releasing this map, Dario! Btw, have you checked your PMs lately?

I don't have a server to run it on, but I'll hop in tonight and give you some comments.

Hopefully you can fix the framerate issues mentioned above. I recall that Robert Briscoe (brisk1), the maker of dm_depot, had some performance issues that he mostly solved with func_areaportal. Check out his post in the hl2world forums. Robert himself might be a good resource too.

 

[Dario D.]

Hey Physicles, yeah, I sent you an email a long time ago to your Gmail account. I guess I should have replied with a PM, so I copy/pasted the email and PM'ed it. :cheers:

-

And yeah, the framerate is low simply because this is an open, circular-central map (zoning is nearly impossible), with at least 3x the detail of dm_lockdown or overwatch.

If you're playing Battlefield 2 at medium settings, you can run this map with ease though. I run it at 30-40 fps with a GF 6600 GT. I know, it requires a computer that can run today's games, but that's something you'll need in these days, regardless, unless you're going to hang back and play CS:S for a couple years without upgrading for Battlefield, Stalker, UT2007, etc.

 

[Finger]

I run it at 30-40 fps with a GF 6600 GT. I know, it requires a computer that can run today's games, but that's something you'll need in these days, regardless, unless you're going to hang back and play CS:S for a couple years without upgrading for Battlefield, Stalker, UT2007, etc.

I'm sorry.. I'm sure it's a fine looking map, but this attitude is the bane of the mapping community. If you want something that is actually played on a regular basis, you can't map for the highest end computers. It's a waste of time, unless you are happy with a showpiece map that never sees any server time.

30-40 fps on a high end machine, is FAR from playable. this means that the average player (who probably has an average rig), is going to be getting at least half that fps. 15-20 fps... now, throw in a server full of people and physics, and effects, and you've got a totally unplayable map.

Not trying to be a downer... just giving my peice of mind, as a mapper who has always tried to appeal to the lowest common denominator, not the highest.

Now, I'll download the map and give an asthetic opinion later. From the screenshot, it looks superb, visually.

 

[Dario D.]

I do know where you're coming from. One of the deciding factors on how detailed to go was the fact that nobody plays HL2: DM anymore, so I'm free to make a "demo map" for when I go get a job.

Some may tilt their heads, but if this were CS:S, that everyone still plays, P17 would look a lot simpler and de_dustier.

Still, it was my expectation that anyone who had a good enough computer to run HL2 nicely could play this map nicely. And they can - it doesn't take as much as you make it seem to play this, because it's within the recommended requirements for a game that came out last year.

People who are lingering below that level will have the game at lower settings anyway, and get a much better framerate than I do. My 30-40 FPS is at 1280x1024, with 2x AA and 16x AF, everything on high.

 

[63]

Nice map mate, nicely done, plenty nooks and crannys. Only thing i noticed so far was the sunlight no matter where you are shines bright when you look at it, like through walls etc, good job.

That's a driver issue.

 

[Seagull]

I don't understand this "no one plays hl2dm anymore" thing... I see 600+ servers. (Not pointed at you exactly, but a ton of people have been saying it and it's really wierd..)



Yet people say no one plays. 0_o.

 

[infamy]

OK - as I mentioned, I'm not comfortable putting it on the server, and I haven't managed to round anyone up for a private run-through. But I did run through it myself. That's not the best way to find bugs, but I did find a couple of little things:

1. Player clips! I got into both tunnels (a sniper back there would be very annoying). And I made it over the wall.

2. I don't know if this is clever or weird. Probably both.

3. Aesthetically, it's lovely. I only had one jarring moment, and it's these doors. The supports clash with the rest of the architecture, and they block the doors themselves. That's just nit-picking though.

When I went over the wall, I was surprised at one thing: There's no 3-D skybox. I think you could probably drastically improve your frames by chopping everything off that's outside of the playable area and doing it as a skybox. It can be a pain to line things up in some places - but I've done seamless ones where you can't tell where the land in the map ends and the skybox begins.

And listen to Finger. He knows what he's talking about, and I believe he's worked (is working) in the very industry that you're interested in.

 

[Elextrik]

Yeah, that map looks awesome! Can't wait to try it out!!

 

[Physicles]

I wish I had good news after running the map on my rig, but I'm experiencing the same slowness. Sure, my rig is over three years old now: an Athlon XP 2200+/512MB RAM/GF4Ti4600. But if I'm running 1024x768 medium detail, I can't get the framerate to dip below 45 on dm_runoff (HL2 itself was very playable). In the "plaza" area of dm_plaza17, I average about 20. In one part of the map, I get 10-15.

Also, when I checked the console, I had gotten some errors about too many decals in a scene. I didn't investigate further, but if you're interested in fixing that issue I can help you out with that.

Oh, and there's a health charger in a very narrow space -- sort of a "U"-curve -- and it really makes that space hard to navigate. I'd suggest reworking that, perhaps by adding additional invisible brushes on the sides of the health charger.

The map looks great, and looks like it'd play pretty well if the framerates were high enough. You're aiming to make this a part of your portfolio; I'd imagine that those who check out your work would be just as concerned about the playability of your maps as their appearance. Also, there's a chance that a mod team could request that you port your map to their mod (it's happened with dm_stalkyard and The Hidden, or some of Kev's work and HL2:CTF, and dm_democracy and countless other maps and HL2DM: Pro).

Of course, it all depends on how much time you want to dedicate to this. If you have the time at all, I'd strongly suggest optimizing the map. It'd be a shame to see your work go unused.

 

[Dario D.]

Yes, I definitely want to get the map running faster. At one time, the map ran at like 7 FPS, before optimizing,... since then I've spent months, on and off, optimizing it, and to my knowledge of the Source engine, there isn't anything more I can do that I haven't already done to the max.

It's just the nature of the map; too many zones are visible at all times, because it's a lush, outdoor map. You can see into other parts of the map from all over the place. There are several massive occluders, tons of Hint brushes, and I even tried Zoning, but that only works in areas that are completely closed off or isolated (so I took it out).

- I tried to make a 3d skybox out of the exterior, but it's impossible to do without losing tons of essential meshes, and nightmarishly difficult to align, considering all the objects that brush up against the play area. Since the map is outdoors, it looks really stupid to throw grenades, rockets, and objects over a wall, only to have them suddenly disappear, which is another problem, since the skybox walls are so close to the play area on all sides of the map. I tried turning everything into a skybox, but it didn't work, so I went back to the "real" outdoors.

As for performance, the only real concern I had up till the beta-tests were the number of physics objects and ammo pickups... I had the suspicion that there were too many, so I wanted to see if the number of movable items would lag things up. Can someone verify this?

And yes, I'm trying to optimize the map as much as I can. Thanks for the comments.