Do Guns Kill, or Do people?

Do fishing rods catch fish? Or do fishermen?....
 
It's a team effort, it would havee been very hard for them to do it without each other.
 
Im in a hurry, but if anyone haven't wrote the spokesway of what your'e writing i'll do it now..

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people... The gun only helps.."
 
Originally posted by |SwE|FishStick
Im in a hurry, but if anyone haven't wrote the spokesway of what your'e writing i'll do it now..

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people... The gun only helps.."
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In fact, that has been said about 15 times:dozey:
 
People that own guns aren't hateful or spiteful lol. They are probably just looking for a hobby, like those that enter shooting contests. the ones that are crazed and own guns are the same drunken low lifes that u see batter women and end up on jerry springer.
 
I say the solution to the gun issue is to make tasers and other non-lethals availiable instead.

Essentially, replace deadly guns and/or ammo with painful/knockout guns and/or ammo
Same level of violence, but less deaths. Everyone is happy then!

Maybe happy isn't the right word... Bemused? Quelled? Distracted? Angrier?
 
Originally posted by theGreenBunny
Allowing guns for the sake of freedom is just wrong imho. Those guns are used to kill a very large amount of people every year, every day even. I can't understand how you think it's morally right to allow guns just because it's 'freedom' and 'your right' while so many people get killed because of that.

The law against killing people is also a limitation of your freedom, why not just scrap that one too eh? Just because some people actually do it doesn't mean normal people shouldn't be allowed to kill!!1 [/exaggerated example]


Now I'd like you to ask yourself, what holds more value to you: the lives of hundreds (don't know the exact amount) of people who get killed because their killer had easy and legitimate access to a gun, or that right or freedom you have?
I know for certain all those dead people won't be able to enjoy that freedom anymore.

*sigh*
Sorry if I'm sounding a bit angry, I just find it really hard to understand pro-gun people.
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Thats the whole point......how safe do we want to make ourselves?

Do we want to live in padded rooms and plastic bubbles?

" The law against killing people is also a limitation of your freedom, why not just scrap that one too eh? Just because some people actually do it doesn't mean normal people shouldn't be allowed to kill!!(-exaggerated example)
"

So where do we draw the line? How many things do i have to give up so you can feel safe?

saying murder being illegal is a limitation of my freedom in comparison to owning a firearm is completly ****ing rediculous and you know it.

murder: is a morraly wrong(acording to our society, to some people murder is not wrong) action taken by a human.

a gun: is an inanimate object untill i pick it up and pull the trigger.
 
Who remembers that case where there was a sniper on the loose? Do you think he would've killed as many people as he did without a gun?
 
Originally posted by ElFuhrer
Who remembers that case where there was a sniper on the loose? Do you think he would've killed as many people as he did without a gun?
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do you think making guns ilegal would have made it any harder for him to get a gun?


not at all....
 
.........the Columbine shooters bought their ammunition from Wallmart.......
 
Originally posted by Pseudonym_
.........the Columbine shooters bought their ammunition from Wallmart.......
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whats your point?


Ive bought ammo from walmart before.....


Did i go into school one day and shoot a bunch of people?


Dont punish me becuase our society produces sick people.

making firearms ilegal to own is the easy way out....it will not solve any problems....


but i guess the human race is notorius for taking the easy road.
 
It wont solve the deep seeded issues that human beings have been struggling with since the beginning, but something so deadly should not be as easily available to just anybody. Don't you agree?

You are very protective of your right to own a gun. Well, tell me this. Just how high a price are you willing to pay for that right? Just how many innocents must die by murderers who bought their weapons at the local Walmart before you stop and say the price is too great? What number exactly is a fair tradeoff?

Now, I place a high value on just a single human life. You, on the other hand, don't seem to share my high opinion of a human life. I say the life of a single child who is accidently shot by his freind who found his father's gun is too great a price to pay for this freedom. I say a single victim of John Lee Malvo is too great a price. I say that a single victim of the recent rash of highway shootings is too great a price to pay. You may not agree. But add all of these up. Is the sum of these not too great a price? No? Then tack on the thousands of others that die every year as the result of someone who legally purchased their firearm.

Is the price still not too great? The consider that a gun bought for protection is 22 times more likely to kill a freind or a child than it is to kill an intruder. Is that a fair price to pay for you to feel secure in the knowledge that you yourself own a gun for protection(assumign you do for the sake of argument), and are you confortable with the fact that that gun you own is 22 times more likely to kill a loved one than the intruder you bought it to protect yourself against?




Just a few things to consider.
 
Exactly Pseudonym, well said.

Do we want to live in padded rooms and plastic bubbles?
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No, but where I live guns are outlawed. Do I feel less free than you? Nope. I'm not living in a padded room or a plastic bubble either. Just a country where I can walk around knowing that the guy who just bumped into me won't pull a gun on me (just an example).

It may be the easy way out, but if it's the only thing we can reasonably do against the problem it should be done. You can't change the fact that there's madmen and criminals around. You can however change the fact that they both have guns.


btw, I agree the murder example wasn't very good:|
 
I dont currently own any firearms.


And if i did it would be for going to the range once or twice a month...not protection.(i would not keep a loaded weapon in my house.)


Its not my fualt that rednecks keep a loaded shotgun in every room in there house.....

Im not responisible for every idiot that doesnt pay attention to the basics of gun saftey.



Im all for natural selection....let the idiots kill each other.......
The world is not a perfect place....its not a safe place....contrary to what most americans want to believe.


Im a democrat and i think that we need to enforce our current gun laws.....

If our government did its job with the laws we already have ....i dont think it would be so bad.



going by all of your arguements ...alcohol should be ilegal to....its kills a shit load more people than guns do...
 
The problem with passing a law to make guns illegal or to restrict their useage, is that crims generally don't obey laws anyway.

They're famous for it.
 
the 2nd amendment is to preserve the ability of the people to revolt against a corrupt government. it was created out of distrust and fear that our government could become a monarchy or dictatorship again.

without firearms in the hands of the people, this is possible. i'm not saying that's a good thing (to not trust the government) but it's necessary, imo...even in the 21st century.

if guns were banned, huge deer populations would kill more americans through crop damage and car accidents than guns ever did.

also, criminals would have guns no matter what, and you'd have to spend billions in law enforcement trying to get rid of guns. Michigan has over 1,000,000 registered hunters, and i'll bet every one of them owns more than one gun. that's suddenly 2,000,000 criminals at least...most of who would defend their right to bear arms with their lives :\

in short, banning guns is a horrible idea...it's another example of treating the symptoms of a problem instead of the root.

this is the exact same argument as legalizing drugs...freedom vs. irresponsible use of a "bad" thing a small percentage of people. do you ban the thing that only some misuse? or do you embrace it and regulate it?

the real problem is that gun deaths are much higher in america than any other nation in the world (aside from countries at war on their own soil)
this isn't a problem with guns, it's a problem with society and people thinking it's OK to kill people to get what they want. other countries don't seem to have that problem.
 
Originally posted by SIGbastard
That's why we should really crack down on the existing laws. If we really crack down then there will be less of the people who don' care about the laws. They will either be in prison or will realize they can no longer get away with their crimes. I'm not trying to go as far as to say everything would be perfect, but I do think it would be better.
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when you pull the manpower and money needed to do that out of our government's ass, i'll be right there with ya. too bad it doesn't exist because we spend it all on drug enforcement and war.
 
when you pull the manpower and money needed to do that out of our government's ass, i'll be right there with ya. too bad it doesn't exist because we spend it all on drug enforcement and war.
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I'm not trying to say it would be easy, and I'm not trying to oversimplify the matter. I just think it's really one of the only viable options our government has if it REALLY wants to do something about it
 
it's still treating a symptom of the real problem. it's like giving someone with pneumonia some cough syrup. you're just covering up the real problem.

our government already wastes too much money trying to enforce unenforcable laws.
 
Guys, no one(especially me) is claiming that guns are the root of the problem. However, having something as deadly as a gun as easily available as they are at the present time only amplifies the problem tremendously. Bringing about a greater sense of morality/responsibility in our society isn't feasible as a short time goal, and it doesn't look as though there is a sufficient amount of people acting in this cause to make a difference in the long run, either. But making guns harder to attain IS feasible. That is something we CAN do. I'll put it in simpler terms for you.

Irresponsible/Immoral/Violent people + guns freely available = Many deaths caused by gun violence/accidental shootings

We can't make people more responsible in the short term. If this happens it will be a very lengthy, gradual change. But we CAN take guns out of the equation. It wont solve the root of the problem, but it will help to ease the effects of the problem until we can get it straightened out. In other words....

Irresponsible/Immoral/Violent people + Guns not available = Drastically reduced number of deaths caused by gun violence/accidental shootings

do you think making guns ilegal would have made it any harder for him to get a gun?
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Yes, it would be harder. Not impossible, clearly. But harder nevertheless. That isn't really the point though.

The point is that even with all of this happeneing, we aren't really doing anything about it. A guy buys a gun, kills a bunch of people. Ok. So what do we do to prevent this happeneing again? Nothing. Are guns any harder to get after this guy was delt with? Nope. Will some other asshole go to the store and buy a gun and do all of this again? Yes, there are already other assholes doing it.

Thats the point, that we are letting the problem continue. The root of the problem is murderous people, yes. But the other half of the equation is the wide availability of guns to the general public.

Ive bought ammo from walmart before.....Did i go into school one day and shoot a bunch of people?
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No, but he did. Should he, a teenager, been able to go to the local wallmart and buy out ALL of their ammunition? Should anybody? Are you truly confortable with the idea that just any human being can go to the local supercenter and purchase huge amounts of ammunition? With as many screwed up people in this country, you are ok with that?

Do you have kids? If so, are you ok with the fact that one of those wallmart bullets that ended up in on the the Columbine student's bodies could just as easily end up lodged in your childs body? If you don't have children, the point should still hit home. If it doesn't then you are a heartless SOB, scum of the earth.



Im all for natural selection....let the idiots kill each other.......
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This is a terribly disgusting thing to say, nevermind extremely imperceptive.

These idiots you are refer to don't limit their victims to other idiots, they kill indiscriminately. Were the Columbine kids idiots that deserved to die? How about the victims of Malvo? And I suppose the victims of this recent rash of highway shootings were also just idiots and should have been killed anyway, is that right? Live and let kill, is that it? And you are so much more worthy of life than the thousands of victims of death by gunshot this year alone? Yes, i suppose you are, since you are so much more intelligent than those idiots who were stupid enough to stand in the path of a speeding bullet that was fired at them, huh?


If our government did its job with the laws we already have ....i dont think it would be so bad
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No, maybe it wouldn't, but I believe it's past time we took a more assertive approach.

going by all of your arguements ...alcohol should be ilegal to....its kills a shit load more people than guns do...
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In a perfect society, it would be. More accuratly, in a perfect society no one would drink intoxicants at all, be them legal or not. Same goes for guns, no one would own them.

Alchohol, like guns, is clearly too dangerous a thing for a society as rich with irresponsible people as ours. Don't you agree? Sure, some people could drink without causing harm, just as some people can own a gun responsibly. But, given the number of murders caused by gun weilding idiots, is the current level of gun availability appropriate?


I don't really want to take part in any debate such as this on a online forum, it just never goes anywhere. I just stepped in to state my view on the subject, and now that i have i will be stepping out. Have fun. :cool:
 
Originally posted by Pseudonym_
These idiots you are refer to don't limit their victims to other idiots, they kill indiscriminately. Were the Columbine kids idiots that deserved to die? How about the victims of Malvo? And I suppose the victims of this recent rash of highway shootings were also just idiots and should have been killed anyway, is that right? Live and let kill, is that it? And you are so much more worthy of life than the thousands of victims of death by gunshot this year alone? Yes, i suppose you are, since you are so much more intelligent than those idiots who were stupid enough to stand in the path of a speeding bullet that was fired at them, huh?
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Good job as misinterpreting what i said............


No one deserves to die. Thats only a perception by somone with differant views than said person.

everyone dies....no one deserves to die.....

You guys are dreaming of a perfect world where something like this will solve the problem......

I previously stated.....making firearms ilegal for civillians to posses would statistically reduce homicide/suicide ect ect ect......


QUICK FIXES SCREW THINGS UP WORSE IN THE LONG RUN!

This is why our society is so currently ****ed up.......this is why we are being attacked by terrorists and are in a somewhat pointless war. This is why kids buy ammo at walmart and go to school and shoot people....

this is why people actaully trust our current presidential adminstration and actaully believe all the propaganda and garbage...half of the country believes this crap.....wich is quite frankly scary....


We need fundamental changes in our society.....becuase 100 years down the road "quick fixes" only come back to bite us in the ass with a problem 10x worse.

It would be nice if there were no such thing as money.....It would be nice if there were no such thing as a government(in its current form).

If people were taught tolerance(as i have been) instead of having specific religious and political beliefs crammed down there throat at birth and being led to believe that there is only one "right" way to do things........

Im tired of losing freedoms becuase people are to stupid to educate themselves.

hence my statement

"Im all for natural selection....let the idiots kill each other......."


the world is not a nice place.......we mislead ourselves believing we are always right.

Id rather innocent people die and some day people will wake up and realise that our only problems are ourselves...

....than sweep the problem under the rug......as we always seem to do.
 
Originally posted by crabcakes66
QUICK FIXES SCREW THINGS UP WORSE IN THE LONG RUN!

If people were taught tolerance(as i have been) instead of having specific religious and political beliefs crammed down there throat at birth and being led to believe that there is only one "right" way to do things........

Im tired of losing freedoms becuase people are to stupid to educate themselves.
Id rather innocent people die and some day people will wake up and realise that our only problems are ourselves...than sweep the problem under the rug......as we always seem to do.
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exactly my view. quick fix = waste of time and effort.

i'd rather some innocent people die than ignore the real problem trying to find a quick fix all the time.

Alchohol, like guns, is clearly too dangerous a thing for a society as rich with irresponsible people as ours. Don't you agree?
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no, i don't agree at all, pseudo.
alcohol is perfectly fine...in fact, banning it would increase crime just like it did during the 1920s.

banning anything increases crime. you talk about making it more difficult for people to do things when you refuse to admit that you wouldn't be stopping it completely.

banning things creates organized crime because people will do a lot of things and pay a lot of money to get what they want. taking it away from them is treating them like children.

i'm sure you'll think "well most of our society acts like children"

yes, because our government/laws treat people like children. they take away choices they should be perfectly capable of making. i'm so sick of laws that take away my right to choose just because some people ruin it for everyone.

that's something you do to a bunch of kids... say, "well billy, you misused the baseball bat, so nobody gets to play baseball anymore."

no, you don't kick billy's ass...you don't imprison billy...you don't fine billy. you help billy understand why it's bad to misuse the baseball bat. if he doesn't cooperate, you put his ass in his room every day after school until he decides freedom is better than misusing the baseball bat.

meanwhile, you let everyone else play ball.
 
Originally posted by crabcakes66
I think this article on trying to ban FPS games in san fransisco expresses my same type of thought process.

http://www.kcbs.com/pages/kcbs/news/news_story.nsp?story_id=44266869&&ID=kcbs&scategory=Computers
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yes...exactly.

if you make a law that has a consequence, you have to enforce that consequence or else it's useless.

so are they seriously going to have a team of people that do sting operations on video game stores to make sure they're not selling to minors? please god tell me people don't think that's a good idea.

how else do you enforce it?
 
I agree on the fact that american society or parts of it could use some serious changing (although I'm not american). Because the only/most important thing that makes the american situation different from all the other countries in the world where guns are banned (including where I live) is that american society.
Banning guns may work, or it may not work. We can only theorise about that, as the current US government isn't interested in stopping the gun problem, only in creating a different kind of gun problem in certain countries in the middle east.

Well, I think all has been said now, took us 5 pages:)
Feel free to continue though
 
Originally posted by SIGbastard
That's why we should really crack down on the existing laws. If we really crack down then there will be less of the people who don' care about the laws. They will either be in prison or will realize they can no longer get away with their crimes. I'm not trying to go as far as to say everything would be perfect, but I do think it would be better.
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You're still playing against good ol' human nature. Denial is a wonderful thing.

"They won't catch me..."

EDIT: More up to date, we may not live in a perfect society, and probably never will, but I believe that adressing the reasons that people shoot each other (environment, stress, etc.) will help a lot more than banning guns, and won't ruin it for the people who like to go out to the range of a weekend and have some fun with their friends...
 
EDIT: More up to date, we may not live in a perfect society, and probably never will, but I believe that adressing the reasons that people shoot each other (environment, stress, etc.) will help a lot more than banning guns, and won't ruin it for the people who like to go out to the range of a weekend and have some fun with their friends...
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I'm not suggesting banning more guns. I in fact think a number of laws should be done away with. I'm only trying to say if the government would enforce the current laws more harshly it would work better than introducing new laws. Even though I agree with you I don't really see how the government could do anything to adress the reasons behind shootings. I think it is a problem of morals, and it gets tricky mixing the government with morals. If I had my way the 94 AWB would sunset, the 89 ban on the importation of assault weapons would be overturned, and the 86 ban against civilian machineguns would be overturned. The fact is that less than 2% of gun crimes involve assault weapons, and I don't think there is a single documented case where a civilian used their own LEGALLY registered machinegun for a crime.
 
Originally posted by SIGbastard
I agree with you. I'm not suggesting banning more guns. I in fact think a number of laws should be done away with. I'm only trying to say if the government would enforce the current laws more harshly it would work better than introducing new laws. Even though I agree with you I don't really see how the government could do anything to adress the reasons behind shootings. I think it is a problem of morals, and it gets tricky mixing the government with morals. If I had my way the 94 AWB would sunset, the 89 ban on the importation of assault weapons would be overturned, and the 86 ban against civilian machineguns would be overturned. The fact is that less than 2% of gun crimes involve assault weapons, and I don't think there is a single documented case where a civilian used their own LEGALLY registered machinegun for a crime.
Click to expand...

Quite. Enforcement helps.

Dunno about any of your gun laws, all I know is that even paintball guns are more or less banned here in Oz (bloody knee-jerk reactionary government). Even fireworks are banned here, for chrissakes. Even the humble slingshot. Pity us.

And that thing about machineguns... surprisingly, perhaps, I agree. Pointless banning them, as the crims and gangs who actually might use them certainly wouldn't get them legally.

The reasons, however, could be adressed (I think, anyway)... it's not just morals; though they come into it in robbery cases and true murders; even the most highly moralistic person must have a breaking point. It can be a bit like road rage, where the person involved just loses control of themselves...
 
I think people do. But, if you remember in the original Max Payne, you walk into a a door and the gun shoots you. No one pulls the trigger.
 
I take it that's a booby trap? In which case, physically, Max pulls the trigger, however unwittingly, and metaphorically, the creator of the trap pulls the trigger.

The gun didn't set itself up.
 
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