Do you agree with this law?

[Nat Turner]

Feral dogs often form predatory packs that attack livestock and occasionally also prove dangerous to humans.

In the UK, it is illegal to kill dogs, even if they are on your private land; you are required to contact your local Police Force, DogsTrust, or the local branch of the RSPCA, who will arrange its collection.

I think this law is stupid. Basically even if a wild dog is on your land attacking and killing your sheep, it would be illegal to kill it. Discuss.

 

[CptStern]

how will you kill thse dogs? bare hands? and will you be humane? are you trained in disposing of rabid animals? what if you accidentily shot a neighbours pet? a neighbour? you're legally responsible ...do you really want people to shoot at what they though may have been an animal but turned out to be a stray goat ..etc? there's a reason why even the police call animal control when an animal is a danger to people etc

 

[Nat Turner]

how will you kill thse dogs? bare hands? and will you be humane? are you trained in disposing of rabid animals? there's a reason why even the police call animal control when an animal is a danger to people etc

Let me ask you this:

Is it humane when a wild dog rips your sheep to shreds? Is it trained in disposing of your sheep and does it have the authority to do so?

Should killing such a dog be criminal?

 

[CptStern]

Let me ask you this:

Is it humane when a wild dog rips your sheep to shreds? Is it trained in disposing of your sheep and does it have the authority to do so?

Should killing such a dog be criminal?

you're asking me whether an animal has the same level of sentience as a human?


yes it should be criminal in that you are taking the law into your own hands when it should be left to people who have EXPRIENCE in that sort of thing

 

[Nat Turner]

you're asking me whether an animal has the same level of sentience as a human?


yes it should be criminal in that you are taking the law into your own hands when it should be left to people who have EXPRIENCE in that sort of thing

If you have experience with that sort of thing, should it still be illegal?

 

[CptStern]

you'd need a license which would mean you'd work for animal control

 

[short recoil]

You should be allowed to kill a dog imo, a couple of dogs formed into a pack can kill large numbers of livestock.

If the dog has an owner they deserve a dead dog if they let if out of their control.
However it should really only be done with a gun for obvious reasons.

Which is better a dead dog or a load of dead sheep?

 

[satch919]

Not sure as I don't own sheep. On one hand, that's someone's livestock and money. On the other, the person who owns those sheep may not be trained to handle wild dogs and may end up getting seriously hurt or killed in the process. Perhaps they should leave it to a professional to handle a wild animal.

 

[short recoil]

Not sure as I don't own sheep. On one hand, that's someone's livestock and money. On the other, the person who owns those sheep may not be trained to handle wild dogs and may end up getting seriously hurt or killed in the process. Perhaps they should leave it to a professional to handle a wild animal.

The same goes for leaving home defense to the police though, by the time they've got there your wifes been raped and killed and you belongings stolen.

When i hear people say "you shouldn't take the law into your own hands" it really pisses me off, it's up to people to maintain law just as much as it is police, the police are a tool to help uphold the law, they are not THE law. I can't stand the idea of seperating police and people which happens to be what my country is doing.

If soceity was more closely knit with all people watching each others back we'd have half the problems we do today, in essense it should be everyones duty to uphold the law.
But no, politicians are either too dumb to realise this or are deliberatley trying to create a completly totalitarian government.

 

[Bob_Marley]

I personally dont agree with this law, although I think that just giving people the ability to shoot dogs who come onto their land may also not be the best idea in the world.

If, however, a system of licencing could be introduced where by a person could take a short course on how to deal with the dogs and recive a certificate to prove that they have passed if they ever need use the ability to destroy a wild dog on their land.

Also, there should be restrictions placed upon what can be used to destroy the animals. Similar to the laws in place for the control of deer. So for example, one could use a 12 bore shotgun or a .308 rifle to destroy them, and not something like a .22 LR, although this would depend upon the size of the animal in question.

And, personally, if some one has let their dog escape and get into a position to threaten livestock then they should fully expect to have the animal destoried. Just like I expect anyone who threatens someone with a replica firearm to recive the same sentenceing that some one with a real one would get (although that dosent happen in this country, despite it being the law:hmph ie 5 year in the klink of a chest full of 9mm hollow point if they dont surrender...

 

[Sainku]

Double post sorry.

 

[Sainku]

Well, since you can't own firearms in the UK it would be kind of hard to shoot them so that is out of the question. Or is there something that allows certain people to whom it would benifet to own one?

 

[Codcommando]

WOOHOO! i made a tie.thank god I live in America.I shoot anything that comes on my property,or I let my german shephard eat it (shes my baby)

 

[short recoil]

Well, since you can't own firearms in the UK it would be kind of hard to shoot them so that is out of the question. Or is there something that allows certain people to whom it would benifet to own one?

Well generally a farmer is allowed to own a shotgun.

In my case if i needed to kill something that was threatening me it would be a combat knife.
Best way to kill a dog:
Wrap your jumper or other garment around your less used arm (left if right handed) present the arm so it can grab it (in most cases they'll go for an exposed limb that is blocking) once it's got your arm, thrust the knife into the cavity between neck and collar area (it's quite soft) it will soon be dead.
Another way is to grab it by the front legs, pull them sideways, it can break the muscular support for the heart and lungs, if it dosn't it'll break their legs and stop them from coming after you.
If you don't wanna kill it, give it a good punch at the base of the skull where it joins the neck, they are pretty hard to K.O however.

Always stand with one foot foward, a large dog jumping at you can knock you over so easily, the last place you want to be is on the floor with the dog on top of you.

 

[Bob_Marley]

Well, since you can't own firearms in the UK it would be kind of hard to shoot them so that is out of the question. Or is there something that allows certain people to whom it would benifet to own one?

Ah, the old American misunderstanding of our firearms laws. Right. It is legal for UK citizens to own:
1. An air-rifle under 12 foot pounds or air pistol under 6 foot pounds without a licenece. Exept for "brocock" style air-pistols and rifles.

2. Shotguns with a barrel length of over 16" (I think, I may be wrong) and a capacity not exceeding 3 rounds on a shotgun licenece. One may hold as many of these weapons on a single shotgun certificate (or section 2 certificate) as one wishes, but must declare all of them.

3. Straight pull bolt action rifles, semi automatic rifles in any .22 rimfire form, single shot rifles, air-rifles over 12 foot pounds, brocock style air-rifles and pistols purchased before the sale, etc of them was banned and shotguns with a capacity execeeding 3 rounds may be held on a section one firearms licenece. One must have good reason to own the weapon (this prevents us from expliting the theoretical loophole in the law and getting .22 gattling guns, which are, technically leagal to own with a section one), proof of this and must have a licence for each of these weapons.

4. Just about everything else is section 5, ie handguns, "full bore" semi autos, fully automatic weapons, etc. A section 5 licence is nigh on impossible to get as it must be granted by the home secretery and allows the holder to own pretty much anything upto and including a mini-gun.

I hope this clears things up for you

 

[Some_God]

Haha, you guys are missing out on all the automatic weapons action!

 

[MiccyNarc]

If it's bothering livestock, shoot it. If it's just passing through, let it pass through. If it's in the middle of the road, however, or chasing my truck, your dog will probably end up roadkill.

Please tie up your dogs.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

you're asking me whether an animal has the same level of sentience as a human?


yes it should be criminal in that you are taking the law into your own hands when it should be left to people who have EXPRIENCE in that sort of thing

That makes a little sense in the city but is impossible and stupid to apply here. We've killed so many animals harassing horses, tearing up the yard, etc that we'd probably be wanted felons in the UK. Yes, living in a house that has lots of stuff around it or an apartment complex it's easy to say those things, but not here, where the nearest animal control place and sherriff's office is 25 miles away.

 

[satch919]

The same goes for leaving home defense to the police though, by the time they've got there your wifes been raped and killed and you belongings stolen.

I think there's a difference in the amount of action taken against a rapist-murderer and a wild dog. Even if someone has a 9mm handgun in their house, it doesn't mean that they'll be able to get to it during the criminal act. Besides, I don't think any logical person expects the police to be watching over their house 24/7.

When i hear people say "you shouldn't take the law into your own hands" it really pisses me off, it's up to people to maintain law just as much as it is police, the police are a tool to help uphold the law, they are not THE law. I can't stand the idea of seperating police and people which happens to be what my country is doing.

I agree that the individual citizen has a responsibility but we don't want a bunch of cowboys out there shooting at everything that moves. Part of the reason why we have police is because it allows them to be trained to handle dangerous situations that might cause a normal citizen to make irrational decisions. It's the professionalism and experience that you want. However, professionalism doesn't seem to be in the repertoire as of late. (in some cases)

 

[Nat Turner]

I agree that the individual citizen has a responsibility but we don't want a bunch of cowboys out there shooting at everything that moves. Part of the reason why we have police is because it allows them to be trained to handle dangerous situations that might cause a normal citizen to make irrational decisions. It's the professionalism and experience that you want. However, professionalism doesn't seem to be in the repertoire as of late. (in some cases)

So you think that if a person shoots a dog attacking his livestock, that person should go to jail or pay serious fines, even if he handled it well?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

The law seems sensible enough to me.

If the sheriff's office is 25 miles away, I doubt dogs could kill a horrendous amount of livestock in the half-hour it takes to reach your place.

 

[satch919]

Yes, living in a house that has lots of stuff around it or an apartment complex it's easy to say those things, but not here, where the nearest animal control place and sherriff's office is 25 miles away.

See, if that were the case and these wild dogs were just attacking your livestock, I would have no problems with someone who tries to fend off or kill those dogs. I would think no one would prosecute you under the circumstances.

 

[satch919]

So you think that if a person shoots a dog attacking his livestock, that person should go to jail or pay serious fines, even if he handled it well?

If the person has access to police/animal services, they should take that option. If not, it's all in your hands. It's hard to say since I've never been in that kind of situation. That's why I voted for the "Not Sure" option.

My response that you quoted was directed at short recoil's comments on crime in general.

 

[Laivasse]

Which is better a dead dog or a load of dead sheep?

Dead sheep. Dogs own.

I'm pretty dubious about how widespread this problem of feral dogs attacking livestock is. I'd make a guess that it isn't nearly as widespread as the animal cruelty problem you'd likely end up with if you allow people to kill all dogs that wander onto their property. Even where feral dogs are a problem I can't imagine it's much hassle to call the animal trust or whatever and have them caught.

It's right that it's illegal to kill dogs. They're highly intelligent and sensitive animals. Someone who wants to have the freedom to kill dogs is not someone I want to talk to, and I couldn't give a toss about some musty smelling yokel and his maggot ridden sheep. Hail dogs! THE LAW STAYS.

 

[Bob_Marley]

The law seems sensible enough to me.

If the sheriff's office is 25 miles away, I doubt dogs could kill a horrendous amount of livestock in the half-hour it takes to reach your place.

Ah, but thats the US. Here in the UK you'd have to go to the local cop shop and report it. Then the officer would have to contact the station's animal control officer (If they have one) or contact an outside agency to terminate the animal. Then they would have to travell to your place to kill it. In the case of sheep farms in northern England and wales that means a good few miles down twisty country roads where only they very brave or very stupid dare to go at over 40 mph, especially in an animal control van Thats takes alot longer than 1/2 an hour.

See, if that were the case and these wild dogs were just attacking your livestock, I would have no problems with someone who tries to fend off or kill those dogs. I would think no one would prosecute you under the circumstances.

Again, this is the UK. You'll get prosecuted for anything and everything here. Hell, even our soldiers in Iraq are afriad to fire their weapons in self defence because the long and the short of what they've been told is "kill anyone, and we mean anyone and you will be prosecuted."

 

[satch919]

Ah, but thats the US. Here in the UK you'd have to go to the local cop shop and report it.

You can't call the police on the phone and report it? You have to physically go down to the police station?

 

[short recoil]

It's right that it's illegal to kill dogs. They're highly intelligent and sensitive animals. Someone who wants to have the freedom to kill dogs is not someone I want to talk to, and I couldn't give a toss about some musty smelling yokel and his maggot ridden sheep. Hail dogs! THE LAW STAYS.

The "musty smelling yokels" you speak of are the people that provide food for you to eat, i'm fed up of city twats who take farmers for granted.
I like dogs too but there comes a point where you have to be realistic, dogs can cause serious problems for farmers.
It's as simple as if you let your dog out of control, essentially free to do what it wants you are not a responsible owner, their instincts of hunter scavanger will take over.
If it is a feral dog then it is a dangerous animal and should be destroyed.

Almost every farm with livestock near here has a "keep dogs on leads" sign, if you keep to that theres hardly a problem.

 

[jverne]

The same goes for leaving home defense to the police though, by the time they've got there your wifes been raped and killed and you belongings stolen.

When i hear people say "you shouldn't take the law into your own hands" it really pisses me off, it's up to people to maintain law just as much as it is police, the police are a tool to help uphold the law, they are not THE law. I can't stand the idea of seperating police and people which happens to be what my country is doing.

If soceity was more closely knit with all people watching each others back we'd have half the problems we do today, in essense it should be everyones duty to uphold the law.
But no, politicians are either too dumb to realise this or are deliberatley trying to create a completly totalitarian government.

i totally agree with you! i think you should have the chanse to defend your loved ones and your home, **** the police! if somebody would want to rape my GF i'd cut his head off with a spoon!
i'm not sure but i think in my country you have some freedom to defend your proprety!? i'll write a letter to the ministry and see what they say?

btw...i already once wrote a letter to the "internal" ministry asking whether swords are illegal cold arms? they said as long as they are labeled as decorative weapons (they can have a sharp edge) it's not illegal to own them!

i have in my room a spring piston rifle (air gun), a home forged wakizashi (japanese sword), a pair of home made aluminium knuckles, a small pocked sized flail (if you don't know what a flail is --> http://www.knightsedge.com/flails/bishops-flail-4636g.jpg , i made it as a personal defense weapon). i'm such a nut!

 

[Laivasse]

The "musty smelling yokels" you speak of are the people that provide food for you to eat, i'm fed up of city twats who take farmers for granted.
I like dogs too but there comes a point where you have to be realistic, dogs can cause serious problems for farmers.
It's as simple as if you let your dog out of control, essentially free to do what it wants you are not a responsible owner, their instincts of hunter scavanger will take over.
If it is a feral dog then it is a dangerous animal and should be destroyed.

Almost every farm with livestock near here has a "keep dogs on leads" sign, if you keep to that theres hardly a problem.

I wont get started on my opinions of farmers. I barely eat lamb anyway.

I agree that people who let their dogs roam free need to be punished. When walking my dog I frequently used to encounter other dog owners who had no control of their animal whatsoever. Some would be so stupid as to unleash their dog upon seeing my own animal, in some stupid sentimental belief that the 2 animals would sit down and have a lovely cup of tea together. A few times I got shocked looks from other owners after swinging a kick at their dog's head, in response to their dog rushing to confront my own. Those people never knew how much I wished it could be their head my foot was flying for.

But I would never kill a dog, because I doubt I would ever need to - there's plenty you can do to deter or incapacitate a dog without killing it, you even suggested that yourself in your first post. At the same time the law's there because there would be massive potential for abuse if it wasn't.

 

[short recoil]

i have in my room a spring piston rifle (air gun), a home forged wakizashi (japanese sword), a pair of home made aluminium knuckles, a small pocked sized flail (if you don't know what a flail is --> http://www.knightsedge.com/flails/bishops-flail-4636g.jpg , i made it as a personal defense weapon). i'm such a nut!

It's best to keep just 1 or 2 defense weapons somewhere closeby that only you can get at, if your room is litered with weapons then it's an open armoury for anyone breaking in.
I keep a 10 inch combat knife in the drawer next to my bed and a carbon steel sword below, everything else is locked away.

It's good to be trained with the weapon you choose to be at your side, if anyone tries to attack me they are stupid or suicidal.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

The law seems sensible enough to me.

If the sheriff's office is 25 miles away, I doubt dogs could kill a horrendous amount of livestock in the half-hour it takes to reach your place.

One is too many. When you hear something squeeling and can go outside and just shoot the thing it takes care of it right there.

My neighbor shot one of my dogs a couple years back because she went into his yard and was trying to kill the kittens on the porch (had them pinned under a table.) He was completely right to do so, to make his actions illegal would be idiotic. Anyway, dog didn't die, came back home with a .22 round in her and was fine after healing.

I hope you realize that the Sherrif's Office probably also are going to call me an idiot and tell me to shoo it out or shoot it myself if possible.

Seriously, when your society has reached a point where taking care of a stray dog problem on your property requires handling by "trained professionals" and shouldn't dare be attempted to be solved by a regular person, it has some serious issues.

This law is just idiocy to me- makes sense as a city ordnance definately, but not as a nation law. There is a big difference when you live on more than a tiny plot of land compared to a spread of an acre or larger.

 

[Raeven0]

Please tie up your dogs.

That's right.

I don't live in Yurop, let alone the UK, so perhaps my opinion is invalid; but if these idiots who live near me won't tie up their dogs, hell, I'm going to run over them. No question.

(I mean I'll run over the dogs, not the people. Running over stupid people is still illegal, for some reason.)

 

[houndeye]

If anything comes onto my (hypothetical) land and starts killing my (hypothetical) sheep, it's going to go out in a trashbag. I guess you Brits think we were pretty off base for the Revolution, too...

 

[jverne]

It's best to keep just 1 or 2 defense weapons somewhere closeby that only you can get at, if your room is litered with weapons then it's an open armoury for anyone breaking in.
I keep a 10 inch combat knife in the drawer next to my bed and a carbon steel sword below, everything else is locked away.

It's good to be trained with the weapon you choose to be at your side, if anyone tries to attack me they are stupid or suicidal.

well, yes but my room is the toughest to break in in of my entire house, it's also the deepest one in the house which is difficult to get to. most of these weapons are on a sturdy shelf above my bed, so all i have to do is to raise my arm and pull out the wakizashi (seconds).

and another point i totally agree with you recoil is that you have to be trainded in using weapons, and i do, few times a week i practice with them outside! i have trully respect for weapons, especialy bladed weapons.that's why i never let my GF touch them, it would be suicide! and i have respect for animals and humans...once i was outside pratcising my aim at an aple when a bird landed few meters away almost infront of the barrel, but i didn't shoot it, because ih has done no harm to me! but if something is threatening me then it's another story! :thumbs:


hey...recoil...you're really a nice guy! :cheers:

 

[Bob_Marley]

you guys seem to go a little overboard with this whole self defence thing (if you can, that is). Your little collection put my good old cricket bat and collection of beer bottles to same!

 

[CptStern]

One is too many. When you hear something squeeling and can go outside and just shoot the thing it takes care of it right there.

My neighbor shot one of my dogs a couple years back because she went into his yard and was trying to kill the kittens on the porch (had them pinned under a table.) He was completely right to do so, to make his actions illegal would be idiotic. Anyway, dog didn't die, came back home with a .22 round in her and was fine after healing.

I hope you realize that the Sherrif's Office probably also are going to call me an idiot and tell me to shoo it out or shoot it myself if possible.

Seriously, when your society has reached a point where taking care of a stray dog problem on your property requires handling by "trained professionals" and shouldn't dare be attempted to be solved by a regular person, it has some serious issues.

This law is just idiocy to me- makes sense as a city ordnance definately, but not as a nation law. There is a big difference when you live on more than a tiny plot of land compared to a spread of an acre or larger.

hmmm trained professional or any idiot with a pulse ...I'll take the trained professional

 

[short recoil]

Your little collection put my good old cricket bat and collection of beer bottles to same!

Cricket bat is prob one of the best self defense weapons ever.
I was hit in the head with a "brian lara" limeted edition bat once. (accident)
To cut a long story short my mate threw the bat as hard as he could at the wicket and it hit me in the forehead, i went berserk and smashed the bat in two.

I have 3 swords, about 20 knives, 3 air rifles, a crossbow, about 20 air pistols, tonfa, bo and nunchaku but i don't have a cricket bat.

 

[satch919]

i have in my room a spring piston rifle (air gun), a home forged wakizashi (japanese sword), a pair of home made aluminium knuckles, a small pocked sized flail (if you don't know what a flail is --> http://www.knightsedge.com/flails/bishops-flail-4636g.jpg , i made it as a personal defense weapon). i'm such a nut!

This isn't the medieval era. I think people should keep 1-2 handguns max in their house and in a safe spot. Having automatic weapons or flails is just weird. Now if you had a flail as a decorative piece, fine. But for using in self defense?

 

[Sainku]

One must have good reason to own the weapon

I knew it wasn't impossible to obtain a firearm, I just didn't know how good the reason had to be. Is "because I'm a farmer and I need to defend my livestock" a valid reason?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

hmmm trained professional or any idiot with a pulse ...I'll take the trained professional

Welcome to the nanny state. Sorry, here in the US we have a thing called accountability and personal responsibility for one's own issues.

You make it sound like this is something like defusing a bomb.