Do you believe in Free Will?

[spookymooky]

Obviously this is in response to the "Do you believe in God?" Thread.

Here's my take:

It doesnt really seem to make sense to me. The idea is that we are endowed with the ability to make our own choices. At first this seems to be the case, after all, I'm choosing to write this right now, right?

Maybe not.

Why do I make a decision? There seem to be two causes: my natural inclinations, and my prior experiences, including prior decisions. There might also be some random firing of neurons and such thrown in there.

All of these things are out of my control. Obviously I didnt have a hand in choosing my genetics. As far as experiences go, I cant control my enviorment. My earliest decisions were a result of instinct and enviorment. While my later and current decisions resulted from those.

Thinking is itself a choice: to begin thinking, what to think about, etc. Thus, thinking is not a variable in the choosing, it is choosing.

If all this is true, if choosing relies on genetics, experience, and chance, and if all these are out of our control, choosing is not within our control. It is not something we can truly do. Its like pulling your hand of a hot stove: just a reflex.

 

[Absinthe]

Undecided.

Part of me says that my genetic, mental, physiological makeup determines all my actions. That includes all my thoughts, hesitations, and so forth.
The other part of me says that while these do factor in a great deal, my consciousness ultimately has a true choice.

I don't know enough about determinism or free will to really comment much on it or establish a strong position myself.

 

[Evo]

Undecided, we have free will in as much as we choose what we wana do, but then again, due to how we were raised may change our views making us not so free.

Kinda drunk so i kno that makes no sense

 

[bryanf445]

free will-yes
fate-no (obviously)

 

[spookymooky]

I feel a bit silly: after that speech I put down, I marked the wrong poll option by mistake (yes). I meant to put no.

 

[spookymooky]

free will-yes
fate-no (obviously)

How so?

(And generally using words like "obviously" in a thread like this invites "heated" discussion...)

 

[Direwolf]

I see there being two points:
1) I do so many mental things this makes more sense to me for Free Will to exist. If I exist as a person and more than a biological being (a fact from my point of view again), then free will is just as plausible.
2) Suppose that Free Will doesn't exist. Then the factors governing human actions are so complicated (almost to the point of there being infinite factors and variables) that it doesn't make a bloody bit of difference to me.

 

[AmishSlayer]

I don't know. Ask God.




EDIT: I like this answer better

 

[Nat Turner]

To the extent that I perceive the universe to exist, I have free will. Which is quite enough in my book. You can't comprehend how much free will you have, anyways, so it's a pointless question. Like a mouse can't comprehend why it must go after the cheese.

 

[Ames]

It's like saying fruit crusty needs the happy time forsaken lodge!

 

[Uriel]

Like most Mormons (or 99% of them) Yes i certainly do!

Going to Heaven or Hell is my Choice

 

[spookymooky]

Nobody thinks not, besides me? Wow, I am massively in the minority on this one. Any Nihilists here?

 

[bryanf445]

How so?

(And generally using words like "obviously" in a thread like this invites "heated" discussion...)

well believing in free will pretty much cancels out the reality of believing humans have a fate

 

[spookymooky]

well believing in free will pretty much cancels out the reality of believing humans have a fate

Ah, I misread what you wrote originally. ^^That makes sense.:bonce:

 

[Nat Turner]

To not believe in free will, you have to believe that something exists outside of our universe that doesn't follow the our universe's laws. Otherwise it's like believing you can construct a machine that can count up to 10^100, one at a time. If our actions are 100% predictable, they can't be predicted from within the universe.

 

[Que-Ever]

Yes, because even though there are still genetics, and past experiences, and all that jazz, even people telling me not to, I'm still gonna flip over that one hurdle, even if I hurt my back and get the wind knocked out of me. Why? I feel like it, and genetics aint doing a damn thing here, as far as I can see.

 

[Quixoticism]

Like most Mormons (or 99% of them) Yes i certainly do!

Going to Heaven or Hell is my Choice

High five brother!

(Yeah, what he said.)

 

[Que-Ever]

High five brother!

(Yeah, what he said)

third fellow mormon I've seen in two days. Hm. I'm tempted to make a poll... but I will resist. </thread derailing>

 

[spookymooky]

Yes, because even though there are still genetics, and past experiences, and all that jazz, even people telling me not to, I'm still gonna flip over that one hurdle, even if I hurt my back and get the wind knocked out of me. Why? I feel like it, and genetics aint doing a damn thing here, as far as I can see.

But the question is why do you like it! Obviously you do things that you want to do, but do you determine what you want to do?

And Nat, I didnt understand what you were saying. If you are implying that you couldn't build a computer to predict the system of the universe, then (and I have to think about it before I agreeor disagree with this) I don't see what bearing that has on rather or not it exists.

 

[Que-Ever]

But the question is why do you like it! Obviously you do things that you want to do, but do you determine what you want to do?

um... You got a point there. Maybe I do determine what I want to do... for a couple years I've had real bad apathy, and I rarely ever feel a desire to do anything, except for the hell of it. But then, another lack of free-will factor comes in... I often do things people tell me to do, like dares. Sometimes I refuse, whether because authority is nearby or actual physical safety is at stake (which has to do with common sense, really- is taht genetic?) but most times it's just "meh," and go at it. I find it easier to do things without thinking, and this could be a sort of giving up free will on purpose, but that in itself is evident of freewill, unless it's affected by one of the other substitute factors for freewill in someway that I can't see, in that case it woud render the whole argument null and the whole point meaningless.

Aww, crap, is there a way to change me vote to "undecided" :rolling:

another example... umm, posting in this thread. It COULD've been an act of freewill, or I might've been affected by upbringing (generally not ignoring people) to reply to the thread again when you replied to my previous post. Oh man, confuzzling. I think I'll go stop thinking for a while...

 

[TheSomeone]

How so?

(And generally using words like "obviously" in a thread like this invites "heated" discussion...)

If he beleives in free-will, he obviously doesn't beleive in fate. He wasn't making a sweeping generalization, just talkinga bout himself.

And I beleive in free-will, but I don't think it matters either way.

 

[spookymooky]

If he beleives in free-will, he obviously doesn't beleive in fate. He wasn't making a sweeping generalization, just talkinga bout himself.

And I beleive in free-will, but I don't think it matters either way.

yeah, I read his post wrong originally.

Anyways, genetics isnt the only thing, I think that sets your brain to start with. Next, I think your experiences (out of your control) shape that brain and its thoughts. Finally, I think, our present enviornment control your direct actions.

Thus, I dont think it matters if Common sense is genetic or not. If not, its instilled in us by some other means, I think.

 

[Ikerous]

I completely agree with spooky's original post, I've thought the exact same thing for some time now. It's just a matter of weather or not that constitutes free will.

You could say that all those genetic and enviromental factors simply go into shaping your personality, which dictates all your decisions. So we have as much free will as our own personality allows us...

 

[spookymooky]

I completely agree with spooky's original post, I've thought the exact same thing for some time now. It's just a matter of weather or not that constitutes free will.

You could say that all those genetic and enviromental factors simply go into shaping your personality, which dictates all your decisions. So we have as much free will as our own personality allows us...

Ikerous, you strike me as an interesting guy. Your philosophical posts are always very sober. Would you explain a bit about your beliefs and how you arrived at them, or lack thereof of course.

 

[Ikerous]

Thanks
I probably came about my views in the same way as you did - especially considering they're so similar. I was most likely just thinking about why it is that people do what they do, and i realized what seems pretty apparent: everything is mere cause and effect. And when you trace back the causes you end up in a place that you had no control over. Everything else is just up to random chance, which again, we lack control over.

I didn't really like that idea though... something about it just didn't seem right, ya know? After thinking about it some more it seems that all these things are actually just factors that go into creating our personality. So we may not choose our personality, but our personality chooses all our actions. And what are we if not our personalities? So our personalities have free will... so, we sorta have free will i guess...

Haha, i dont know. I haven't put enough thought into it to really come to a firm conclusion yet

 

[xcellerate]

Well look at your body. You can TRY and hold your breath till you die, but try it and watch how much 'free will' your body allows you.

 

[Pesmerga]

Hell yes, only "No" answer.

Listen, time is a line, and everything can be predicted (of course not with human technology yet). Thus free will doesn't exist. Deal with it.

Well look at your body. You can TRY and hold your breath till you die, but try it and watch how much 'free will' your body allows you.

That's not a matter of free will, that's a matter of human instinct, which only acts as to reinforce the theory that free will doesn't exist.

 

[burnzie]

It was a good movie.... but i dont exactly belive in it. It was the best movie about a whale trapped in an aquarium anyway...

 

[Ikerous]

Well look at your body. You can TRY and hold your breath till you die, but try it and watch how much 'free will' your body allows you.

That seems a lot like saying that because you can't pick up your house, you don't have free will. Just because you're not physically capable of doing something doesn't deminish your ability to make your own decisions.

Any Nihilists here?

Are you a nihilist? If so, could you expand on your views? I find the subject of ethical and social relativism and nihilism pretty interesting, but i'm not sure where i stand

 

[spookymooky]

Thanks
I probably came about my views in the same way as you did - especially considering they're so similar. I was most likely just thinking about why it is that people do what they do, and i realized what seems pretty apparent: everything is mere cause and effect. And when you trace back the causes you end up in a place that you had no control over. Everything else is just up to random chance, which again, we lack control over.

I didn't really like that idea though... something about it just didn't seem right, ya know? After thinking about it some more it seems that all these things are actually just factors that go into creating our personality. So we may not choose our personality, but our personality chooses all our actions. And what are we if not our personalities? So our personalities have free will... so, we sorta have free will i guess...

Haha, i dont know. I haven't put enough thought into it to really come to a firm conclusion yet

I haven't come up with that personality bit, at least not yet...but yes, thats how I arrived at this. In approaching all philosophy/belief, though, I do it a bit differently.

One day, I decided to forget everything I "knew", and just rebuild my beliefs from the ground up. I had just decided Catholocism wasn't for me, for sure. This has led me to some interesting places. I had a really weird week when I didnt believe I existed, and, while I still haven't seen enough evidence to know for sure, I'm putting that aside for now, and while still thinking about it, acting as though I do.

Things like perception of time, morality, and society are very atypical as I have experienced them so far, if what other's say is an accurate reflection of how they percieve these things.

 

[Uriel]

third fellow mormon I've seen in two days. Hm. I'm tempted to make a poll... but I will resist. </thread derailing>

So how many Mormons we got here? Just curious

 

[Quixoticism]

You could always make a poll, out of your own free will of course.

(Yes it was lame :x)

 

[spookymooky]

Although I applaud the effort to stay on target.

 

[CyberPitz]

Of course you have free will...but according to the christian religion, god already ahs your life planned out, and how can you change the future of which he has decided for you if you don't even know it? It's like changing the future, but you don't know how/what/where. Thus, you can't.

Oh well.

 

[Quixoticism]

It's not that God has your life planned out, He just knows everything that you're going to do.
It's not like everything is set up to play out a certain way, people make the world what it is; to an extent. (Kind of scary isn't it.)

Make sense?

 

[spookymooky]

It's not that God has your life planned out, He just knows everything that you're going to do. It's not like everything is set up to play out a certain way, people make the world what it is. (Kind of scary isn't it.)

Make sense?

As far as deep theological and philosophical Catholic teaching is concerned, it would be more accurate to say that God is your life throughout all time. See, it's not like he can see what will happen, but he exists singularly then and now, as a part of, but not at all connected to everything.

I dont believe this personally, just reporting.

Much of this was arrived upon by theologians, principally Thomas Aquinas, before the reformation, so these beliefs are probably buried somewhere within most Christian churches. Except perhaps Greek Orthodox.

 

[ailevation]

We all have the same fate, our fate is to die. It's the inevitable. So far...

But, I believe do the things we do by some genetics and some by environment.

I could punch one of you. And you'd take it and handle it calmly, but if one of you were to punvh me, i'd start a ruckus. It's in my nature to be tempered. My whole family is ill-tempered and that's a fact.

But, then again... would if I kicked it with Ghandi for the majority of my life and shared his views... I probably wouldn't be so tempered, or would I? Do environmental causes and changes overrule our genetic code? I would probably agree so.

 

[Max35]

I think we as humans are so complex, that the term "Free Will" was a lot simpler to grasp than trying to put a stamp on our genetic and mental makeup. I think Free Will was born from Narcissism with ourselves; thereby stating that we have no mental boundaries, sure we can push our mental capacity a little through determination, but just like our bodies it has limitations. Do the apathetic choose apathy? I doubt it, they are just that way.

Also, our legal system is intent on punishing society for it's crimes. Even if Free Will did exist, it's not like it would make a dent in our so-called free thinking process, right?. The system of Crime and Punishment should be changed to Mental Mistakes and Rehabilitation. Sometimes execution is warranted if the criminal is a slave to their crimes; just like we are slaves to everything we do.

The term Free Will is inaccurate, Reflexive Will suits humanity better as a whole. Does this make all of our decisions infallible? No, but the sooner we realize this, the sooner society as a whole will be better off I think.

A quote by some philosopher comes to mind "It is debatable whether or not a suicide can be called a suicide, did he die from his own hand or from deliberation?." Something like that, anyway.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Obviously this is in response to the "Do you believe in God?" Thread.

Here's my take:

It doesnt really seem to make sense to me. The idea is that we are endowed with the ability to make our own choices. At first this seems to be the case, after all, I'm choosing to write this right now, right?

Maybe not.

Why do I make a decision? There seem to be two causes: my natural inclinations, and my prior experiences, including prior decisions. There might also be some random firing of neurons and such thrown in there.

All of these things are out of my control. Obviously I didnt have a hand in choosing my genetics. As far as experiences go, I cant control my enviorment. My earliest decisions were a result of instinct and enviorment. While my later and current decisions resulted from those.

Thinking is itself a choice: to begin thinking, what to think about, etc. Thus, thinking is not a variable in the choosing, it is choosing.

If all this is true, if choosing relies on genetics, experience, and chance, and if all these are out of our control, choosing is not within our control. It is not something we can truly do. Its like pulling your hand of a hot stove: just a reflex.

This is pretty much my beliefs in a nutshell, even if we the power to make our own decisions, what decision we make is the one we think is the best and what we think is the best is dependent on so many factors.