Do you believe people choose to be gay?

[DarkStar]

This is an offshoot of the gay marriage thread, which I haven't really participated in, but I've watched carefully.

For me, this is THE basic issue in the debate over homosexuality. If you don't choose to be gay, then how can you be denied rights? If being gay is like being black, or felmale, or asian, or disbaled, or mexican, or fat, how can anyone deny you a basic human right? If you cannot choose what you are, you cannot morally be denied a civil right such as marriage.

So, are people born homosexual or is it a choice made later in life. Personally, I believe people have no choice in the matter.

 

[Varsity]

You can never control your feelings. It's a matter or chemicals in the blood and impulses in the brain.

 

[gh0st]

i agree with varsity, i dont think people "choose" to be gay.

 

[KagePrototype]

All the gay people I've met have said they've known it pretty much their whole lives, in one way or another.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

That issue is a can of worms and I don't think you can say either with absolute surety.

The rules of nature say it's wrong. But homosexual animals have been witnessed in nature as well.

Certainly genetics is involved. Every human is inherently female but when a certain chromosome is given at the right developmental stage it turns them into male (Jurassic Park ). Knowing that we all start off as female it is entirely possible some people born males carry on some effects of being female, one of those being an attraction to males. Other traits such as feminine speech characteristics can also be seen in *some* gay men.

Though on the other hand i've met people that exhibit all the stereotyped characteristics of a gay person yet they are straight.

I really have no idea. All i do know is that homosexuality has been around forever and it's something we should probably just accept. As long as i don't get ****ed in the ass by a man, it's ok by me. Societal change is always slow ......

 

[Adrien C]

It's in your blood, its there from the second you are born.
I will explain more tomorw as I'm going bed.. night

 

[MrWhite]

I'm bisexual and I've always have been and known that I have been attracted to both males and females.

Yes, I was born this way.

 

[ShadowFox]

No, you don't choose. And no, you aren't born a certain way.

It is all social conditioning and environment, IMO.

 

[Shuzer]

I choose to be happy, yes.

..oh, you say I missed the point of the thread? :|

 

[ailevation]

It's in your blood, its there from the second you are born.
I will explain more tomorw as I'm going bed.. night

How are you 'born' gay? It's complicated of how a person becomes gay though. Stick a straight 13 year old kid to be around gay people the rest of his life... will he continue to be straight, yes it is possible. But, can he become gay? Yes, that is possible. I don't get you are gay in your blood, a predestined thing, no way. I am saying people don't just become gay because it was written in their DNA to be that way, I think it's the way your mind develops, hormones and stuff. Also, if people are born gay... why is it in Shakespeare times a good amount of men were openly gay? I think there's an influencial part in this as well.

 

[KagePrototype]

Also, if people are born gay... why is it in Shakespeare times a good amount of men were openly gay?

Wait, wait...how does that disprove you're not born with it? A lot of people are openly gay now, it makes no difference.

 

[MrWhite]

Wait... I'm missing the part where it matters.

Why? Do you want to "correct the problem at the source" or something?

SOme people are born that way, some people turn that way. I don't think you can just "choose" to be gay though.

 

[Raziaar]

Hmm... I don't think there is anything wrong with being gay, or bisexual... even though I would hate to be called those two things(its just not who I am). It's just like you'd hate being called a woman, simply because you're a guy... despite the fact you don't hate women at all.

I am of the belief that one chooses to act on attractions to the same sex. All religion put aside... the main purpose in life for all species is to reproduce with the opposite sex. I'm not counting those creatures that are asexual, etc, as most on the planet are either male, or female. From a pure scientific standpoint, being gay is not the way nature intended, and therefore must be a choice.

That's my belief anyways. I'm not going to get into the religious aspect of homosexuality and stuff


EDITED: Some stupid stuff I didn't put in right the first time, since i'm sleepy.

 

[el Chi]

Hmm... I don't think there is anything wrong with being gay, or bisexual... even though I would hate to be called those two things(its just not who I am). It's just like you'd hate being called a woman, simply because you're a guy... despite the fact you don't hate women at all.

I am of the belief that one chooses to act on attractions to the same sex.

Sorry - long post, but here we go:

I've been mistaken for a girl on more than one occasion and it's certainly somewhat immasculating, but I find it quite amusing. I've been mistaken for gay a fair few times as well, but that doesn't bother me.

I'm with Mr. White and Kage; I think sexuality is an inherent quality in one's personality. If it were a matter of social conditioning then how does one explain people who repress their feelings of homosexuality because the environment they have been raised in/live in looks down on homosexuality?

Also, there are evolutionary benefits of homosexuality (I gots learnded this in the "Gay Games!" thread) - it provides a community with members who will be as active members as any others in terms of feeding, hunting, watching out, looking after young, but without contributing to potential overpopulation.

I will say that there are some who do (as much as I hate to use the following word, given the title and given my stance to it) "decide" to be gay or bisexual because they think it's fashionable or edgy. Firstly: Mr. White, you know I respect you and so there's no way I'm including you in this bracket. Secondly: So much of the time it seems to be disaffected, often angsty "alternative" girls who, much of the time, crave attention.

Also, there are those who "realise" they're gay only to realise later that they are not, however I would (generally speaking) put that more down to a particular manifestation of personality crisis than anything else.

Anyway like I said, I don't see that social conditioning would have much influence on one's feelings of homosexuality. Perhaps a little ironically, social conditioning does play a role in some people's "decision" to be heterosexual. And it certainly has pretty much everything to do with homophobia.

 

[[Matt]]

No, you don't choose. And no, you aren't born a certain way.

It is all social conditioning and environment, IMO.

You're wrong about the social conditioning partas there is stacks of evidence around that homosexuality is is mostly genetic.

A provocative study of finger lengths found that lesbians are more likely than other women to have a subtle masculine trait, while gay men may display that same characteristic more than heterosexuals.

The research adds to an expanding body of evidence that sexual orientation is at least partly a matter of biology--and not simply a choice or a result of cultural or psychological influences.

It also provides evidence for the theory that exposure to higher levels of male sex hormones in the womb can help make a person lesbian or gay, despite the stereotype of effeminate gay men, the researchers say.

The researchers at the University of California at Berkeley built their study on an already known quirk of human anatomy: Men tend to have shorter index fingers than ring fingers. In women, those two fingers tend to be about the same length.

Scientists believe that men's higher levels of androgens--the male sex hormones such as testosterone that are found in both sexes--produce this and many other sex differences.

In the study published Thursday in the journal Nature, the Berkeley researchers interviewed 720 adults at three street festivals in San Francisco, asked them their sexual orientation and measured their fingers.

The fingers of lesbians were closer to the typical male configuration--with the shorter index finger than the fingers of other women. The finding points to higher levels of male sex hormones in early life for lesbians, the researchers said.

The researchers also found indirect evidence of a similar trait in gay men.

They found that, in keeping with earlier research, men with more older brothers were more often gay, possibly from escalating levels of androgens in the womb for successive boys. The researchers then went a step further, showing that those same men with older brothers also had relatively shorter index fingers--the hormonal male pattern--than other men.

The researchers suspect that if they had looked at larger numbers of people, they would have found that gays overall indeed show a more masculine finger pattern than other men.

Some earlier researchers have also tied male homosexuality to unusually strong masculine traits.

"This calls into question all of our cultural assumptions that gay men are feminine," said psychologist Marc Breedlove, who led the Berkeley study.

He cautioned that finger-length differences hold up only as averages in large populations, not for individuals. The differences involved just fractions of an inch.

Paula Ettelbrick, an activist at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, said some gay men would welcome such findings because "they argue very strenuously that their sexual orientation is very well defined and biological." But she said ultimately the question of cause should not bear on the equal rights debate.

Some earlier research already suggests slight anatomical differences between gays and other men, including variations in brain structure and bigger penises for homosexuals.

The Berkeley study "is among the better lines of direct evidence of a possible hormonal cause of homosexuality," said psychologist Ray Blanchard, a sexuality researcher at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto.

Many researchers, including those in the Berkeley study, suspect that homosexuality stems from a complex interplay of biological, social and psychological factors.

"I think only a fool would say that we know for sure it's biological. And I think that clearly only a fool would say it has to do only with the way we were raised," said Bernard J. Gallagher III, a psychiatric sociologist at Villanova University.

There have also been studies which show that homosexual men have a significantly smaller hypothalamus than straight men. Whats interesting about that fact is that this is a trait that women normally have

On a side not if homosexuality was found to be totally genetic wouldnt that have ramifications for the church and other religions that believe homosexuality is wrong? 'God' would be discriminating against one of his creations as soon as it was concieved?

 

[el Chi]

Cheers [Matt]! That article was fascinating. A couple of things I loved
1. Psychologist: Dr. Breedlove. What a fantastic name
2. Homosexual men are more masculine than heterosexuals. Seems like a bit of a "Stick that in your pipe and smoke it" to homophobes everywhere.

 

[Dr.Spock]

A-sexual species are to easily defeated. Thus with male and female counter parts natural selection comes into play. Weeding out the weak and leaving those superior to live on. If they inferior are not killed off they are not picked by the opposite sex to reproduce.

-Gays could either be mother figures that don't add to the overall population (Although this wouldn't make sense since the point of being is supposedly reproduce.)
-It could be just like that guy stated, we are all female until we are givin a (insert chemical here) and turn male. To much of the female characteristics took hold to soon and they like males instead or other way around.
-Choice?
-Fun?

To many variables to determine for sure.

----------Vulcans pwn humans so it doesnt matter.

 

[ailevation]

:dozey: How ironic, the stereotype that gay men are like females, but in the quote there's a section where it says gay men tend to have bigger penis's, we all know the whole "You're so manly if you've a big penis".

 

[Dr.Spock]

:dozey: How ironic, the stereotype that gay men are like females, but in the quote there's a section where it says gay men tend to have bigger penis's, we all know the whole "You're so manly if you've a big penis".

U could also say black men have bigger penis's than everyone else. doesn't mean its true.

 

[ailevation]

:dozey: Who says any of this is true? Maybe I should put some sarcasm tags next time, dumb of me.

 

[Kyorisu]

:dozey: How ironic, the stereotype that gay men are like females, but in the quote there's a section where it says gay men tend to have bigger penis's, we all know the whole "You're so manly if you've a big penis".

I can use these facts against the Jackasses at my school.

 

[Cybernoid]

So, are people born homosexual or is it a choice made later in life. Personally, I believe people have no choice in the matter.

No choice. Some people even kill themselves because they don't want to be gay.

 

[Gunner]

You can never control your feelings. It's a matter or chemicals in the blood and impulses in the brain.

Then it's subconscious: the choice they make is subconscious.

 

[Cybernoid]

That issue is a can of worms and I don't think you can say either with absolute surety.

The rules of nature say it's wrong. But homosexual animals have been witnessed in nature as well.

What rules of nature? The only way to make unnatural gay people would be to create them in a laboratory from scratch. Even if homosexuals were an anomaly, it still wouldn't be unnatural.

Then it's subconscious: the choice they make is subconscious.

Sure, and the G-man just came by my house to borrow sugar.

 

[ailevation]

No choice. Some people even kill themselves because they don't want to be gay.

:dozey: Or they think they've made a wrong decision, they are so scared to deal with societies treatment towards being gay. People kill themselves from simply making ****ed up choices in life. When it comes down to it, it is basically fear.

 

[el Chi]

A-sexual species are to easily defeated. Thus with male and female counteIt could be just like that guy stated, we are all female until we are givin a (insert chemical here) and turn male. To much of the female characteristics took hold to soon and they like males instead or other way around.

It's a biological fact that we are females in the womb up until a certain point, which is why men have nipples and - actually I'm not going to delve further into male vs,female anatomy lest I get banned.

we all know the whole "You're so manly if you've a big penis".

Yes. Yes you are. You are also more manly if you're a manslut. That makes you cool.

:dozey: Or they think they've made a wrong decision, they are so scared to deal with societies treatment towards being gay. People kill themselves from simply making ****ed up choices in life. When it comes down to it, it is basically fear.

If you decide to be gay and are then afraid of what other people may think then one would reverse their decision. The reason they commit suicide or repress their feelings is because they cannot help them. It is a part of who they are and perhaps fear has a part to play in that but it has nothing to do with choice.

 

[ailevation]

:dozey: That was an example of stereotype. Notice the quotes?

Just because you're afraid of what other people think they can reverse your decision? let's say you think that a girl is hot, but your friends think she's ugly, if you admit that she's hot your friends will bash on you. That's going to really change your decision for thinking she's hot?

People don't commit suicide because they simpy cannot help it, but they think they cannot get help. So this then leads to hopelessness and fear to the point where they want to kill themselves

 

[el Chi]

No I'm sorry, you've lost me - I'm not quite with it this morning...
You quoted this: No choice. Some people even kill themselves because they don't want to be gay.
And responded with this: Or they think they've made a wrong decision, they are so scared to deal with societies treatment towards being gay. People kill themselves from simply making ****ed up choices in life. When it comes down to it, it is basically fear.
If I've missed the sarcasm train then I'm sorry. However it didn't come accross as particularly sarcastic.

 

[ailevation]

:x El Chi, that was for your first quote on me. The penis one.

 

[Gunner]

Sure, and the G-man just came by my house to borrow sugar.

Really cuz he borrowed some eggs from me I think he's baking a cake.

Omgz0r!

 

[ailevation]

:naughty: Yep, he promised me a cake.

 

[el Chi]

:dozey: That was an example of stereotype. Notice the quotes?
Just because you're afraid of what other people think they can reverse your decision? let's say you think that a girl is hot, but your friends think she's ugly, if you admit that she's hot your friends will bash on you. That's going to really change your decision for thinking she's hot?
People don't commit suicide because they simpy cannot help it, but they think they cannot get help. So this then leads to hopelessness and fear to the point where they want to kill themselves


El Chi, that was for your first quote on me. The penis one.

Okay - that sort of solves the confusion. Sort of.
Personally if I pulled a girl or fancied/was going out with a girl and my friends took the piss out of me because they thought she was ugly, I'd tell them to f*ck themselves with a chisel. It's my decision and bugger all to do with them. If I pulled a girl when I was drunk who I thought was ugly and so did they, then I might be a tad embarrassed, but then it doesn't matter.
Now, sexual persuasion is such a vastly more complex and significant part of a person's life and is very different from your friends pissing about with you because of the above examples. The idea that someone who was gay deciding they needed help!? No no no. Are you saying that they cannot get help in the sense that they do not want admit that they're gay (to themselves as much as anyone else) and can't find a way to change that? Or do you mean that they have made a decision that they can't reverse and there is no help for them to do that?
Because the thing is, some people kill themselves due to intense unhappiness with their sexuality and the social problems it may cause for them and that itis contrary to the way they have been raised. Some such people may not admit their sexuality to anyone, save for their suicide note.
Secondly, plenty of people "realise" they're gay only to reverse their decision later, just as I said in one of my previous posts. Just in the same way that many people live straight lives only to admit a long way down the line that they're gay - one of my dad's best friends did this and he had a wife and two sons.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Don't know, don't care. What I have noticed is that bisexuals tend to be a little on the horny side, which could explain some things (not that they need to be explained), well, atleast the ones I know.

 

[CrazyHarij]

They have no ****ing choice. My dad tried to choose the opposite but it didn't work out at all in the end.

 

[Dr.Spock]

They have no ****ing choice. My dad tried to choose the opposite but it didn't work out at all in the end.

so are u mad or embarresed?

 

[Cybernoid]

Speaking of homosexuality, I'm utterly tired of how television portrays gays. It's as if EVERY gay man in the world is a handsome young man whose only hobby is to have one night stands with other handsome young gays. This pattern is repeated everywhere. But then, I don't know any gay people so it might be true. How would I know?

 

[Bad^Hat]

Heh, Americans suck at satire.

Edit - Ha, I just realised I made a stereotype about how people stereotype gays. Man I'm stupid

 

[Pressure]

It's a bit of both. Gay people tend to have certain parts of their brain that are the same size as the opposite sex instead of the same sex. People also choose wether they'd like it or not.

 

[A2597]

I think it's a choice that is somewhat spurrned by the school system. The constant "It's OK" almost becomes a peer pressure thing IMHO.

 

[Bad^Hat]

I think it's a choice that is somewhat spurrned by the school system. The constant "It's OK" almost becomes a peer pressure thing IMHO.

Hahahahahahahahahah :E:E

...Seriously? Shit, where do you live? I'm packing :O