Do you dream while you're asleep?

[spunge]

Before you begin reading, let us forget all previous knowledge and experiences with dreams. It will be far too easy to disagree with certain aspects of this theory if you try to apply personal, subjective events. The reason being, if you think of any information you have gathered or concluded about the workings of dreams (when you dream, what they are about, why you dream etc.) the only sample you will have is from your own dreams. I'd like you to disregard anything you believe based on current knowledge of your own dreams as they occur when you are not in a mind position to make informed judgements - you are not fully awake and so memories are confounded, forgotten and misinterpreted.

Instinctively people would agree that you dream while you are asleep. Not only that but most would claim that the most vivid dreams and equally the ones you remember occur while you are in a deep sleep. You can fit the logic so that this makes sense - "I don't dream while im awake" : "I dream while i'm asleep"; it stands to reason that the deeper the sleep the more you will dream. Have you ever had a dream which didn't wake you up? Have you ever woken up at a regular time and thought to yourself "I had a nice dream about an hour ago" after a full nights constant sleep? No. All memories of dreams were seconds before you 'woke up', correct? You may remember dreams you had during the night but (I would suggest without fail) these are when you had trouble sleeping and woke up at different points over the course of the night - hence remembering the dream which just occurred.

So, we could come up with the theory (admittedly this is the initial reaction and quite a believable theory) that you 'forget' dreams if you sleep through it and only remember the dream you had moments before waking. But is it possible that the other dreams do not occur and the ones we remember are the only dreams we have? I'll come back to the topic of when we dream later.

Straight to the point of the theory which I am suggesting: you 'dream' while entering sleep or awakening. Nothing to do with deep sleep. Nothing to do with REM sleep. Before I elaborate this point i'll address the fact that scientific studies have evidence (notice evidence not proof) as to when we dream and what causes it. Nothing is proven but there is solid evidence - such as EKG's monitoring brain activity - that dreams occur during REM sleep. However, until there is the technology to record exactly what a person is feeling, seeing, hearing in a dream, then I disregard it as proof. A flaw of this method of dream analysis - even if 90% of dreams that are recalled by the subject are after REM sleep, a cause and effect relationship cannot be claimed.

Is it possible that you have to be awoken from REM sleep to have a dream (the dream occuring at the instance of waking)? If that is true - you are not dreaming during the REM sleep, you are dreaming due to the transition from REM sleep to full consciousness. However scientific evidence wouldn't give that impression. Note: this is not exactly what I believe to be happening either, it's just an example of possible pitfalls of the scientific research.

Back to your own experience with dreams. You can probably recall a time you were watching T.V. and began dosing off, you become relaxed and calm as your conscious mind 'switches off'. Although you are aware of the images and sounds you are imagining, you do not analyse them or have any thought processes. This is dreaming. And when you realise your eyes are closed and your conscious mind snaps back into activity, you awaken from this 'dream'.

Evidence against the traditional view of dreaming while asleep: most people will have at some point had a dream about an alarm or siren - this dream may feel to have lasted a long time - only for you to realise that it is infact your alarm clock going off. So how is it that you were having a vivid dream about an alarm before it began ringing? That's not possible, the dream must have been between the initial ringing of the alarm to the time when you reach full consciousness. So why did you dream about a siren? Let's take a look at hypnosis. Hypnosis has been described as "suspension of the critical factor" which expands on the idea of "increased suggestibility" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis. Sounds similar to our conscious or 'critical' mind leaving us while we drift off watching T.V. So what it suggestibility? How easily we take onboard what is presented to us. You may suggest to someone that it is in their best interest to go to a party, if they don't question this, you may say that they are 'susceptible' to your suggestion.

To bring it back on track, an alarm ringing is suggesting a loud sound to you. Do you consciously address this and think "Why is this noise being made, what is making it, where is it coming from" - no, because your conscious mind isn't present. So what happens? You believe the alarm and do not question it, hence imagining whatever images come to mind. The alarm may play a part in a confused story which you have imagined - it fits in and you do not question the ringing. This is until your conscious mind returns and you realise that it is your alarm. The mental picture you had about a fish robbing the bank of england seems ridiculous to you now, even though it was willingly accepted only seconds ago.

If you experience lucid dreams (dreams where you know you are in a dream), it becomes much easier to realise that you are infact on the brink of awakening. More to the point - it becomes strikingly obvious that you dream as you are falling asleep also. When you just miss falling asleep but come close, it's natural to have dreams or often a sudden shock (such as the feeling you are falling or seeing a sudden movement which you 'react' to). This doesn't fit in with the generally accepted view that we dream whilst in a deep sleep.

Rather than blindly dismissing some of these opinions and saying things like "I had a dream which I felt lasted hours" - test it for yourself. For those of you who do not often dream and do not experience lucid dreams, you can 'learn' to. Set an alarm to keep waking you up at thirty minute intervals during the night. You will experience many dreams and you will probably realise you are dreaming much of the time. You can buy lucid dreaming tapes which I personally believe do nothing except wake you up - achieving the same effect - except with a lot of pointless buzzing noise which apparently modifies sleep modes - it's the waking you up due to noise which causes any lucid dreams.

Try to read the entirety of this to get an understanding of the point I'm making, and comprehend it from an objective point of view.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I tend to dream while awake .

In all seriousness, I don't naturally dream very often. Its only when I purposly induce a lucid dream (which are always fun ) that I ever dream.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

Interesting idea, as obviously there are many "levels" of sleep, and moving up to a higher level as the catalyst for a dream is certainly plausible.

There is a theory that endogenous dmt causes dreams, a natural mini-trip. It has definate time-warping properties, and is similar to dreams in that it can be dificult to remember afterwards, slipping through your fingers without intense concentration (being as still as possible can help with remembering dreams, movement wipes it away quicker, at least for me).

Strangely enough, the only hormone that didn't rise in response to a big dose of DMT was melatonin. Everything else went up, including beta-endorphins, vasopressing, cortisol, prolactin, you name it. This was surprising, but then I thought about how important it is that the pineal be protected from bumps off its equilibrium.

There might be an inverse relationship between them, rising and falling throughout the sleep cycle, melatonin producing deeper sleep (less consciousness), and dmt producing psychedelia (more alertness and creativity to process thoughts).

 

[ailevation]

I thought the theory was that the pineal gland releases DMT to make you have dreams.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

Right. The pineal also produces melatonin, associated with drowsiness.

 

[Iron Kat]

I can sometimes have up to about six or seven dreams a night. Sometimes even eight. it can get really confusing when I try to remember them. Some dreams I had years ago are still really vivid in my memory and are pretty cool dreams.

 

[phantomdesign]

I've noticed that I dream more often when inducing pressure on a certain part of my head (like a certain portion of my head resting on my pillow) & often remember dream the most whne taking my usual 20 mintue naps. Not always though. The time inside my dreams usually matches relatively the time I sleep (during these power-naps) and I can force myself to awake at parts of the dream; which corresponds to the duration of my sleep.

To this extent I strongly doubt your theory that dream occur the moment before awakening.

One interesting ovservation is that my dreams are always extremely detailed; visually, audibly, and even the sense of touch/feel. Just last night I had a dream, realized I was dreaming, then made a decision to continue the dream (it was pretty cool; beating up evil people, messing with hot chicks, acrobatics, more fights, a prison escape, more fights, then messing around with the hot evil chick. Everything down to the texture of the bricks, the lighting, reflections, everything was photo-real. I think it's related to my strong ability to visualize; a huge reason why I'm so strongly skilled in 3D. It was cool though; pausing to check out the detail.

Sometimes the moment before I go to sleep, when I begin to slip out of consciousness, I can simulate extremely realistic sounds in my head. It's fun!

 

[Pesmerga]

I dream when I dream :O

 

[Acepilotf14]

I dream about dreaming, but I don't actually dream.

 

[Unfocused]

I think that you have many dreams during the night, but remember only those before awakening or while entering sleep.

Why do people sometimes mutter and/or twitch in their sleep? Because they are dreaming. They don't always do so right after going to sleep or before awakening.

 

[Raziaar]

I once dreamt that I was dreaming of people dreaming about me dreaming.

TOP THAT!

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

Do androids dream of electric sheep?

 

[Godron]

The state you pass through between waking and sleep (and vice versa) is called hypnogogia. The experiences in them tend to be more like random images, sounds and words (for me at least), but I've never heard of people having fully fledged dreams in them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnogogia

During dreams, a nerve cord paralyses most of the brain stem, preventing you form acting out your dreams. However, the nerves that control the eyes don't pass through the brain stem, so moving your eyes in your dreams will cause your eyes to move in real life, hence peoples' eyes fluttering while they dream, hence rapid-eye-movement, hence REM sleep. Furthermore, proficient lucid dreamers can carry out a sequence of pre-determined eye movements while dreaming, which can be picked up by an observer. I think there was also an experiment once where someone severed the brain stem paralysing nerve in some kittens, which resulted in them acting out their dreams of chasing stuff and pouncing on it.

There's some more evidence for dreams occuring during REM sleep in a very awesome book called Counting Sheep. I'll post them if I find it.

EDIT: Oh, and you don't always forget dreams you had several hours ago. If you train yourself enough, I've heard of people consistetly remembering several dreams a night, one from each period of REM sleep. I doubt that they were waking up after each period of REM ever night, even briefly.

 

[Seppo]

i don't sleep

 

[Emporius]

A better question is are you asleep when you dream?

 

[lame-o]

DMT is involved in dreaming for sure, but it's not known if it's what is actually CAUSING dreams.

The theory is that as you fall asleep DMT is released into your brain causing a sort of trip, and the reason it's not like other drugs where it doesn't go away for a duration of time and you are conscious of being high is because it is gotten rid of instantly upon waking since it's directly in the brain. Also, it's thought that the reason you don't remember dreams is because of the high dose of DMT that you are exposed to during sleep. It's like a sedative at high doses (a la ketamine).

Normally, when people use DMT to get high they take a MUCH lower dose than is given to them during sleep because otherwise they would just pass out with no recollection of their last waking moments. Of course I doubt anyone has ever actually tried to ingest as much of it as is used during sleep. Or maybe you'd just die.

Some people think it's brain practice; your brain is in a relaxed state while it tests creating images, feelings, memories, thoughts (subconscious), etc.

 

[Raziaar]

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.'


And then I woke up.

 

[McGooTheWise]

Do you dream while you're asleep?

No, I sleep-eat kittens. It's like sleep walking, accept I eat kittens.

 

[theotherguy]

Before you begin reading, let us forget all previous knowledge and experiences with dreams. It will be far too easy to disagree with certain aspects of this theory if you try to apply personal, subjective events. The reason being, if you think of any information you have gathered or concluded about the workings of dreams (when you dream, what they are about, why you dream etc.) the only sample you will have is from your own dreams. I'd like you to disregard anything you believe based on current knowledge of your own dreams as they occur when you are not in a mind position to make informed judgements - you are not fully awake and so memories are confounded, forgotten and misinterpreted.

Agreed, anecdotal evidence is garbage.

Instinctively people would agree that you dream while you are asleep. Not only that but most would claim that the most vivid dreams and equally the ones you remember occur while you are in a deep sleep.

That's exactly false. Dreams occur in REM sleep, which happens right before the waking phase and in between delta (deep) phases. You are most likely to remember a dream if you wake up during REM sleep, which is actually a very light sleep, and if you wake up in a darkened room, and if you write down immediately everything you remember. If you wake up during delta sleep, you will not remember any dreams.

You can fit the logic so that this makes sense - "I don't dream while im awake" : "I dream while i'm asleep"; it stands to reason that the deeper the sleep the more you will dream.

No. That doesn't make any sense at all. Sleep has multiple phases which occur throughout the night. The brain is the most inactive during deep sleep, and dreams only occur when the brain is highly active.

Have you ever had a dream which didn't wake you up?

Yes, I personally have remembered and recorded dreams inbetween sleep phases. In fact, when I lucid dream I can clearly know which sleep phase I am in by the perceived length of time in the dream and the events which occur as the dream comes to a close.

Have you ever woken up at a regular time and thought to yourself "I had a nice dream about an hour ago" after a full nights constant sleep?

Yes.

No.

Yes.

All memories of dreams were seconds before you 'woke up', correct?

No. Those just happen to be the most vivid memories because they happened the most recently. It also just happens that the most active and longest REM phase occurs immediately before waking.

You may remember dreams you had during the night but (I would suggest without fail) these are when you had trouble sleeping and woke up at different points over the course of the night - hence remembering the dream which just occurred.

Not at all. I almost always remember different dreams throughout the night which occur in distinct phases. There is at first a short one, then a slightly longer one, and then a very long one before I wake up. This is consistent with the sleep cycle.

So, we could come up with the theory (admittedly this is the initial reaction and quite a believable theory) that you 'forget' dreams if you sleep through it and only remember the dream you had moments before waking. But is it possible that the other dreams do not occur and the ones we remember are the only dreams we have? I'll come back to the topic of when we dream later.

Both could potentially be correct, but laboratory studies seem to contradict yours. We can only remember dreams if we convert short term memories while in the waking state into long term memories by writing them down or discussing them orally. The brain tends to forget dreams because dreams are actually quite vague, disjointed and useless.

Straight to the point of the theory which I am suggesting: you 'dream' while entering sleep or awakening.

You do dream while awakening, but not while falling asleep. While you fall asleep you enter alpha wave sleep, which comes with hypnogogic sensations that can be perceived as dreaming, but which are not in fact dreams.

Nothing to do with deep sleep.

Right.

Nothing to do with REM sleep.

Absolutely wrong. Laboratory studies have shown that people awakened during an REM phase are the most likely to report vivid dreams, while if they are awakened in any other state of sleep, they are likely to report nothing but vague images, if nothing at all. This alone proves that dreaming is not the product of waking up, but of REM sleep.

Before I elaborate this point i'll address the fact that scientific studies have evidence (notice evidence not proof) as to when we dream and what causes it.

Nothing is ever proven, but we can say with statistical certainty that dreams are correlated with REM sleep, and are not correlated merely with waking up.

Nothing is proven but there is solid evidence - such as EKG's monitoring brain activity - that dreams occur during REM sleep.

True.

However, until there is the technology to record exactly what a person is feeling, seeing, hearing in a dream, then I disregard it as proof. A flaw of this method of dream analysis - even if 90% of dreams that are recalled by the subject are after REM sleep, a cause and effect relationship cannot be claimed.

Why not?

Is it possible that you have to be awoken from REM sleep to have a dream (the dream occuring at the instance of waking)?

But not being awoken from alpha or delta sleep?

If that is true - you are not dreaming during the REM sleep, you are dreaming due to the transition from REM sleep to full consciousness. However scientific evidence wouldn't give that impression. Note: this is not exactly what I believe to be happening either, it's just an example of possible pitfalls of the scientific research.

Possible, but unlikely. What of people who can recall events occurring in their dreams which were inspired by events in the outside world? Wouldn't their recall of such a thing be triggered by a genuine memory of a stimuli while they were dreaming?

Back to your own experience with dreams. You can probably recall a time you were watching T.V. and began dosing off, you become relaxed and calm as your conscious mind 'switches off'. Although you are aware of the images and sounds you are imagining, you do not analyse them or have any thought processes. This is dreaming.

No. That's not dreaming at all. That's alpha sleep.

And when you realise your eyes are closed and your conscious mind snaps back into activity, you awaken from this 'dream'.

No. You transfer from alpha sleep into consciousness.

Evidence against the traditional view of dreaming while asleep: most people will have at some point had a dream about an alarm or siren - this dream may feel to have lasted a long time - only for you to realise that it is infact your alarm clock going off. So how is it that you were having a vivid dream about an alarm before it began ringing?

You weren't. I don't see what you're getting at here.

That's not possible, the dream must have been between the initial ringing of the alarm to the time when you reach full consciousness. So why did you dream about a siren?

The dream included more than the siren. Your memory of the event afterwards creates a logical series of events, the siren, to accommodate the perceived stimuli of the alarm.

Let's take a look at hypnosis. Hypnosis has been described as "suspension of the critical factor" which expands on the idea of "increased suggestibility" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis. Sounds similar to our conscious or 'critical' mind leaving us while we drift off watching T.V. So what it suggestibility? How easily we take onboard what is presented to us. You may suggest to someone that it is in their best interest to go to a party, if they don't question this, you may say that they are 'susceptible' to your suggestion.

Not quite. Hypnosis is a social phenomenon in which people respond to what they are expected to do by the hypnotist. It is not an altered state of consciousness at all. Anyone can be hypnotized merely by being distracted and following orders.

To bring it back on track, an alarm ringing is suggesting a loud sound to you. Do you consciously address this and think "Why is this noise being made, what is making it, where is it coming from" - no, because your conscious mind isn't present.

Well, let me tell you a bit about how dreaming works. The mind experiences random stimulation of the brain by random, uncontrolled firing of neurons. The brain attempts to make sense of all this garbled nonsense by weaving it into a story-- a dream. The alarm is simply another stimulus added on to the random stimuli of the dreaming, and your brain weaves it in to the story, just like the random firing of neurons. However, when the signal continues and is very strong and coherent, the brain realizes that it is actually coming from the outside world, and you wake up.

So what happens? You believe the alarm and do not question it, hence imagining whatever images come to mind. The alarm may play a part in a confused story which you have imagined - it fits in and you do not question the ringing. This is until your conscious mind returns and you realise that it is your alarm. The mental picture you had about a fish robbing the bank of england seems ridiculous to you now, even though it was willingly accepted only seconds ago.

Pretty much.

If you experience lucid dreams (dreams where you know you are in a dream), it becomes much easier to realise that you are infact on the brink of awakening. More to the point - it becomes strikingly obvious that you dream as you are falling asleep also. When you just miss falling asleep but come close, it's natural to have dreams or often a sudden shock (such as the feeling you are falling or seeing a sudden movement which you 'react' to). This doesn't fit in with the generally accepted view that we dream whilst in a deep sleep.

Again, I'm sorry to tell you this, but this is not dreaming at all. Its hypnogogic hallucination, which occurs during alpha sleep. The "sudden movement" is called a mykotic jerk. It is a muscle spasm caused by your body constantly contracting and relaxing muscle groups to prepare for sleep. While you are in alpha sleep, your body goes into a state of hyper-relaxation, and it slowly tightens and loosens each muscle group to produce a state of relaxation. Ocassionaly a muscle will spasm, and it will cause you to kick. The extreme release of endorphins caused by this relaxation coupled with the kicks gives you a feeling of floating, and the kick makes you think that you've fallen. This has absolutely nothing to do with dreaming, and thus does not lend credence to your hypothesis.

Rather than blindly dismissing some of these opinions and saying things like "I had a dream which I felt lasted hours" - test it for yourself. For those of you who do not often dream and do not experience lucid dreams, you can 'learn' to. Set an alarm to keep waking you up at thirty minute intervals during the night. You will experience many dreams and you will probably realise you are dreaming much of the time. You can buy lucid dreaming tapes which I personally believe do nothing except wake you up - achieving the same effect - except with a lot of pointless buzzing noise which apparently modifies sleep modes - it's the waking you up due to noise which causes any lucid dreams.

I agree, people should attempt lucid dreaming, its good fun. But I disagree with your idea about the lucid dreaming tapes. Studies have shown that people do not experience any change in wake/sleep patterns while they occur, and in fact remain in REM sleep.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

and the reason it's not like other drugs where it doesn't go away for a duration of time and you are conscious of being high is because it is gotten rid of instantly upon waking since it's directly in the brain.

Trust me, you can be conscious of it while awake. It's quite fast acting, the brain hungers for it, actively expending glucose to transport it past the blood-brain barrier.

Also, it's thought that the reason you don't remember dreams is because of the high dose of DMT that you are exposed to during sleep. It's like a sedative at high doses (a la ketamine).

Normally, when people use DMT to get high they take a MUCH lower dose than is given to them during sleep because otherwise they would just pass out with no recollection of their last waking moments. Of course I doubt anyone has ever actually tried to ingest as much of it as is used during sleep. Or maybe you'd just die.

This is just plain wrong. Only a small amount is produced naturally in the body, smoking floods the brain with the precious spice. It most certainly is not a sedative, and it is very safe, short of huge overdoses via injection. You can't smoke too much - you'll be in hyperspace long before that point.

 

[Saturos]

I used to have bad night terrors and such during my pre-teen and early teen years. Most of the time when I have dreams like these, I don't remember a thing when I wake up screaming and breaking shit from my flailing. :O I took out the wall next to my bed with my fist, cracked the window with my foot, and my parents had to take me to the emergency room to get stitches from where I sliced my hand open from knocking out the wall (my hand got caught on a nail) and a stint for my majorly jammed big toe. (The window didn't break completely, but my toe did.) Amazingly, I didn't have any broken bones in my hands though. That was some pretty thick drywall too. :O I got sliced up pretty good in other places too, thanks to those sharp vinyl blinds. I vaguely even remember that incident anymore. I don't even remember what else it was I broke. That was also the last time I ever had any night terrors.

I rarely even dream anymore nowadays. Just daydreams when I'm in class or working. When I do dream, it's really mundane stuff like being late for class, forgetting to wear clothes to school/work, or some other dumb s***.