Do you think 9/11 was an inside job? A count

[Viperidae]

There were a lot more conspiracy theorists last year I think.

Hunter S. Thompson thought it could have been an inside job, which I think is pretty interesting considering that man was definitely not a dumbass.

Whoa hello. Looks like someone here needs to go and read Mechagodzilla's thread on logical fallacy again.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

He's not that well known here but I did watch a documentary on him once. From the main points I recall, Hunter S.Thompson was obsessed with guns and shot himself in the head a few years ago when his writing wasn't making the news anymore.

Aside from that I love reading conspiracies...they are really entertaining. You can make a square peg fit in a round hole if you hammer it in hard enough, with your face.

 

[lame-o]

Whoa hello. Looks like someone here needs to go and read Mechagodzilla's thread on logical fallacy again.

What? Why? I'm trying to see what the general consensus is on what happened on 9/11. I find it interesting that there were/are famous people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job. Ron Paul, Willie Nelson, Charlie Sheen, David Arquette, Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, etc. Look, to me this doesn't really seem like a normal "conspiracy theory", there are way too many people who believe in it.

He's not that well known here but I did watch a documentary on him once. From the main points I recall, Hunter S.Thompson was obsessed with guns and shot himself in the head a few years ago when his writing wasn't making the news anymore.

Aside from that I love reading conspiracies...they are really entertaining. You can make a square peg fit in a round hole if you hammer it in hard enough, with your face.

Over here he's quite respected

 

[Absinthe]

Quoted and slightly abridged:

All the people who would have to be involved in order to pull this massive conspiracy off...

-The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history... Some of them like Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neil have come out for less.

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most, if not all, of them. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why?

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...

-The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?

-All the people in the Pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly trucked in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? Again, no answer...

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who would rather have investigations of the decisions which led to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money... [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They won’t say anything.]

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like the BBC and Al Jazeera. Why? No answer here either...

-The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the "Controlled demolition" account.

-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history.

-PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb.

-Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent organization doesn't have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called "Conspiracy". In fact, the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a handful can do the job but that's simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team of structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work with other teams using the same evidence and specifications.

-NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.

-The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to China before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the firefighters.

-EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context, then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right? Even the ones in other countries. Why? The answer they give is that the engineers don't know about Jones’ work. So in all this time no one has e-mailed Jones' work to any structural engineer?

-Structure Magazine who published a report saying the collapse of WTC 7 may have been due to one column failing.

-The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. (Like me) They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why? No clue...

-The CIA

-The FBI

-FEMA

-The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorists say is impossible is possible.

-NORAD

-The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorists say never existed.

-The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.

-Silverstein's Insurance Company who didn't question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorists say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.

-American Airlines (Pentagon)

-United Airlines (Pentagon)

-Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes

-Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology

-Installers of the remote control devices in the planes (Pentagon)

-Remote controllers of the planes (Pentagon)

-Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.

-Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings

-People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover

-Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers (Pentagon)

-Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones. (Pentagon)

-People who detonated the buildings

-Anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.

- http://www.debunking911.com/massivect.htm

We can argue about the technical elements of what happened on 9/11. But suggesting that the US government was involved in the attack holds no water once you realize the sheer number of people that would have had to be involved in order to pull it off.

Not only to pull it off, but to stay completely silent for all this time afterward.

No secret conspiracy, especially one on the scale of the WTC attack, is that airtight. It's even more ludicrous to think that the Bush administration, with its propensity for ****ups and its hamfisted approach to dealing with anything, could have enacted such a plot with any level of success. People sure are quick to condemn a government as an inefficient failure yet still hold the belief they are masterminds at killing their own people. Weird.

If the Obama administration had but a portion of the finesse and thought that would have had to go into the 9/11 attack, we'd have universal healthcare by now. Think about that.

 

[kazsymonds]

Where´s the option for "No, but this beats the hell out of pointless episode 3 threads"?

 

[No Limit]

Building fires okay.

Yes, a building fire. That's what 3 years of independent investigations found. If you say otherwise you need to provide some scientific evidance to the contrary something that nobody has yet been able to do.

 

[VirusType2]

Honestly, the most suspicious thing for me is when they informed GW Bush that we were under attack, and he just went about reading children's books. 'You could almost hear him whisper to Bush', "Sir, everything is going according to plan."

 

[Absinthe]

I thought it looked like a man paralyzed by the weight of the situation, not knowing what he should do.

 

[CptStern]

Honestly, the most suspicious thing for me is when they informed GW Bush that we were under attack, and he just went about reading children's books. 'You could almost hear him whisper to Bush', "Sir, everything is going according to plan."

I prefer to think he was hearing circus music in his head. I mean come on, that noggin is empty

 

[Viperidae]

Why? I'm trying to see what the general consensus is on what happened on 9/11. I find it interesting that there were/are famous people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job. Ron Paul, Willie Nelson, Charlie Sheen, David Arquette, Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, etc. Look, to me this doesn't really seem like a normal "conspiracy theory", there are way too many people who believe in it.

Hmm, because an argument should stand on its veracity, and not on who believes in it?

 

[Jeru]

Hunter S Thompson was wrong, Arthur Conan Doyle and the pixies did it.

 

[lord_raken]

HAHA! 9/11 conspiracy theories are BULLSHIT!

The resulting conflicts after 9/11 only HURT Bush's position and caused the GOP to lose majority in the Congress. It drove us deep into debt and wasted our resources. It DAMAGED OUR ECONOMY!!!!!! that is political suicide! No politician who wants power would dare do that.

And besides. If a party wants power... it would just be easier to fix and election rather. than create a destructive plot that has a greater chance of failing than succeeding.

I know our government wants power but they try and get it through more subtle and less risky means. I know it has shadow operations... but we use those to screw with other countries.

 

[lame-o]

@ Absinthe

All the people who would have to be involved in order to pull this massive conspiracy off...

You do know that there have been conspiracies before right? They don't exactly work in the way that anyone who so much as is present during the execution of a conspiracy is automatically a part of it.

Also, a lot of the claims that some people from such and such groups didn't question the official story are just flat out incorrect.

Some important examples:

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most, if not all, of them. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why?

Firefighters

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...

Police Commissioner Kerik *Obviously this isn't him refuting the official story, but it does show he isn't exactly credible.

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who would rather have investigations of the decisions which led to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money... [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They won’t say anything.]

Actually there are a lot of families saying their questions are simply being ignored and they aren't getting enough news coverage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2FqgyLZeaY&feature=related

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like the BBC and Al Jazeera. Why? No answer here either...

That's what the "info war" is about. I wouldn't be surprised if that was true.

-The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. (Like me) They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why? No clue...

You're obviously mistaking complacency in a conspiracy and ignorance of the conspiracy.

-The FBI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBvBJ_vQt24&feature=related
Ted Gunderson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhMcii8smxk

-The CIA

8-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job

 

[No Limit]

Lol, see what I mean? You disprove one thing they always move on to another.

 

[lame-o]

No, you're just not going to tell me that no-one from any of these groups has ever disputed the official story, because that's bullshit. I'm not trying to ****ing prove anything. That was just evidence that disproves what Absinthe was claiming. The fact is that many people who were directly or indirectly involved in 9/11 are now claiming that it was a conspiracy.

 

[Escaep]

I don't believe it was a full-on conspiracy. But I do believe the US government didn't pay enough attention to the signs of an impending attack. If that makes sense.

 

[Shakermaker]

Since I seem to make things happen as by magic:

/enter Kathaksung

 

[lame-o]

My opinion is (obviously) leaning more towards conspiracy considering I've been kind of defending the conspiracy theory the whole time (although that's also because the guys who believe the official story are the only ones doing the bashing). I haven't really heard much compelling evidence that supports a clean-cut terrorist attack.

The only thing I see going for it is the fact that airplanes intentionally flew into the god damn WTC! Besides that, a lot (if not all) of the other stuff simply goes against common sense. Also, if I'm trying to be objective then how can I fully trust the explanations of government appointed organizations, especially when so many other experts completely disagree with them?

The fact that so many average people, experts, and relatives of the victims seem to be against the official explanation is just something that sets this apart from any other conspiracy theory.

On the other side, the conspiracy theorists haven't really proven their view in a way which is impossible to refute by anyone with half a brain. So if they haven't made much progress in uncovering the supposed truth for 8 years, then what the hell are they trying to do? Either make a serious statement about 9/11, or keep it to yourself.

 

[Absinthe]

No, you're just not going to tell me that no-one from any of these groups has ever disputed the official story, because that's bullshit.

You'll link me a Youtube video of Ted Gunderson from the Oklahoma City bombings, but just a few posts ago you were also citing... Alec Baldwin? Charlie Sheen? For all those holes you and others might pick in the official story, not one of you can actually connect all these disparate points and make a cohesive case. Your rationale appears to be: These few things make no sense, therefore it's all a lie! There has to be a conspiracy. It's this kind of thinking leads to fluffy, vacant arguments like "The towers fell, but the Pentagon didn't get hit as badly. Coincidence? I THINK NOT." That's extremely vacuous, and tiresome. It's hard to take your point of view seriously when your methodology is skewed.

I want to know what previous conspiracies you're referring to in order to gain some ground here. Yes, they have existed. All sorts of groups and people have "plots". But there has never, ever been anything close to the scale of what you're alleging happened on September 11th. With all due respect to Mr. Gunderson, he's been retired from the organization for 30 ****ing years. It's dishonest to chalk it up to complacency, as I'm sure democrats and liberals would have loved to skewer Bush if they had the evidence. It also doesn't account for the vast majority of technicians and experts (not on government dime btw) who offer explanations that don't invoke the mythical powers of the CIA and never see a reason to.

The fact that so many average people, experts, and relatives of the victims seem to be against the official explanation is just something that sets this apart from any other conspiracy theory.

I think you are seriously inflating the significance of conspiracy theorists' opinions. The internet may fool you into thinking otherwise, but they are members of a minority. I don't care if some victim or a lone engineer disagrees with the official story because for every one of those there are dozens more who are - I'm sorry to say - offering far more plausible explanations of the events than theories where the CIA and government are imbued with powers of absolute strategic mastery and capable of pulling off the largest, most impossible cover-up of all time.

You have sidestepped the article quoted, in a way. I was not trying to say that everybody on that list necessarily agreed with the official account of the attack. I was pointing out how out of everybody involved (willingly or otherwise), not one has let slip a word of the supposed "truth" about 9/11. I don't care if you shave off a few people because they may have been complacent or ignorant of their role. That is still a huge amount of people to account for. Thousands died, as have millions in the two wars that were to stem directly from that day. You'd think somebody would have spoken up, either for money, or fame, or revenge, or guilt, or because they're on their deathbed and it's their last chance to speak the truth.

Nope. Nothing.

 

[No Limit]

The fact that so many average people, experts, and relatives of the victims seem to be against the official explanation is just something that sets this apart from any other conspiracy theory.

Why haven't those "experts" published any scientific papers to prove what they are saying? And now you are alleging that the thousands of engineers that worked on the NIST report and the ones that reviewed the published scientific findings are all part of a conspiracy. And you have absolutely no evidance for any other kind of theory. Do you grasp how absolutely insane that sounds?

 

[15357]

No, and if you think that it was, then you are a threat to the public and should be confined in a state mental health facility like all of the other people who know too much.


Hey, I don't think I would get away with bombing 3000 people, much less some government types.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

this is nothing new. the US has been doing this sort of thing for over 100 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

I don't believe I ever implied that it was. See: Iran-Contra, the first gulf war etc etc. It's happened since we established ourselves as a nation. If you're looking for an argument here, you're going to have a tough time finding one.

 

[Sparta]

I don't think he was looking for an argument, I think he just wanted to establish that its nothing new.

 

[Vegeta897]

I don't think he was looking for an argument,

We're talking about Stern here.

 

[Danimal]

Everyone knows it was a jewish black magic ritual.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

I don't think he was looking for an argument, I think he just wanted to establish that its nothing new.

Penis measuring, argument fishing, whatever.

 

[Tagaziel]

I know a lot of you guys have talked about this before and stated your opinions on this matter, but I'd just like to get a general idea of how many people disagree with the official story.

All depends on the sanity of the poster.

- The Bush administration had a lot to gain from it.
Without 9/11 the U.S. wouldn't have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. The war has been highly profitable for oil companies and military corporations.

http://www.debunking911.com/massivect.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/conspiracy.htm

- It was impossible for cell phones to have reception at cruising altitude in 2001.
However there is this quote: "Wireless communications networks weren't designed for ground-to-air communication. Cellular experts privately admit that they're surprised the calls were able to be placed from the hijacked planes, and that they lasted as long as they did. They speculate that the only reason that the calls went through in the first place is that the aircraft were flying so close to the ground..."

Was there ever a comprehensive study on how cell phones function at high altitudes?

- The airplanes weren't intercepted by the FAA or NORAD.
Here's what Popular Mechanics had to say on this matter:

"In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent."

http://www.911myths.com/html/67_intercepts.html

Not everyone buys this story however, and common sense suggests that there should be some kind of defense or emergency system put in place for commercial airliners. There is alleged evidence of an active airway defense system. Besides what about Washington D.C.? Did they really leave airways completely defenseless over the White House?

Alleged evidence. Made up stories.

- A jet plane shouldn't have been able to level the Twin Towers.
The people who designed the WTC claim this.

http://www.debunking911.com/impact.htm

It wasn't the plane itself (otherwise the towers would collapse immediately after being hit), but the fires that broke out afterwards.

- The Twin Towers both dropped at near free-fall speed, in a pancake fashion.
Historically, this has only happened during demolitions. Furthermore, the theory that they collapsed due to the intense heat of the jet fuel melting the steel is supposedly impossible. Here's a quote: "...people (including engineers) often confuse temperature and heat. While they are related, they are not the same. Thermodynamically, the heat contained in a material is related to the temperature through the heat capacity and the density (or mass). Temperature is defined as an intensive property, meaning that it does not vary with the quantity of material, while the heat is an extensive property, which does vary with the amount of material. One way to distinguish the two is to note that if a second log is added to the fireplace, the temperature does not double; it stays roughly the same, but the size of the fire or the length of time the fire burns, or a combination of the two, doubles. Thus, the fact that there were 90,000 L of jet fuel on a few floors of the WTC does not mean that this was an unusually hot fire. The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel."

The official experts however, completely disagree.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0917_disasterbuildings.html

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/eagar-0112.html

http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

It was nowhere near free-fall speed.

- There was evidence of thermite pyrotechnics being used (which is the kind of substance used to cut steel during demolitions).
There's a famous picture of a steel column amidst the WTC rubble that was cut diagonally in such a fashion that the steel melted along the edges of the cut.

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

Thermite doesn't work sideways.

- Many survivors have said that they witnessed explosions in the lower levels of the Twin Towers, suggesting demolition explosives.
Others say that the downward implosion of the buildings just pushed smoke and plume downwards, and the explosions were simply the sounds of the structural failure.

http://www.debunking911.com/explosions.htm

Occam's Razor.

- The attack on the WTC was completely successful. The attack on the pentagon was only partially successful (managed to hit, but didn't do any kind of damage that would disrupt the pentagon's efficiency). Finally, the attack on the White House didn't come close to being successful (no official explanation why).
The result of the attacks coincidentally didn't hurt the government very much at all. This has been officially attributed to the intervention of passengers on the other planes, and luck in regard to the pentagon.

http://www.debunking911.com/massivect.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/meeting.htm

There are way more in-depth and researched accusations at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4582.htm for those who want to take a look.

Conspiracy theories tend to be composed of incoherent rambling supported by "evidence" taken completely out of context. It's basically bullshit.

 

[mastag]

I'd say the fact that the makers of Loose Change aren't lying in a ditch with a bullet in their heads speaks for itself.

 

[Absinthe]

You'd think that for a government capable of slaughtering thousands of its own people in such a grand spectacle with nobody getting the wiser, they'd surely be able to execute some university douchebag with a copy of Adobe Premiere.

 

[Asknoone]

THAT'S RIGHT, FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY. TO PROTECT AMERICA. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA -- ANY IDEA AT ALL -- WHAT I HAVE HAD TO SACRIFICE?

 

[Vegeta897]

I'd say the fact that the makers of Loose Change aren't lying in a ditch with a bullet in their heads speaks for itself.

You'd think that for a government capable of slaughtering thousands of its own people in such a grand spectacle with nobody getting the wiser, they'd surely be able to execute some university douchebag with a copy of Adobe Premiere.

Yes because him turning up dead after making a movie about the government being responsible is exactly what the government would want to happen if they had been. That wouldn't be suspicious at all.

He already made and released the movie, what would be the point in killing him?

 

[Asknoone]

ONE SINGLE SOUL, THE LOSS OF ONE SINGLE SOUL IS TRAGIC TO ME.

 

[Sloth]

There are some things that never sit right. Some people just have to go to the greatest lengths to put down their government.

 

[Asknoone]

There are some things that never sit right. Some people just have to go to the greatest lengths to put down their government.

Unless you're in Australia.

 

[Absinthe]

Yes because him turning up dead after making a movie about the government being responsible is exactly what the government would want to happen if they had been. That wouldn't be suspicious at all.

He already made and released the movie, what would be the point in killing him?

Bush would just edit everything off the internet, silly. LAWL INFO WARS.

I don't know if you're siding with him or just making a snipe from the sidelines. In any case, I'm sure the government has enough resources to either A) Make him "disappear" in some fashion, or B) Shut him up. Remember, we are talking about masters of espionage and all that other cloak-and-dagger stuff. Anything would surely be better than letting him run his trap. After all, he has all the power and evidence to unravel this dastardly scheme.

Of course, you could argue that by keeping him alive, he's simply relegated to the rest of the crazy, fringe conspiracy theorists that nobody sensible pays attention to. Methinks this an explanation with some root in reality.

 

[lame-o]

Samon, just because you're too immature to deal with grown up stuff doesn't mean you can spam how stupid you are to everyone and add your closest relatives as an option to this thread's poll.

So please get rid of it, thanks.

 

[RidleyRockets]

 

[lame-o]

Hey, **** you too!

It seems like about a quarter of the people who visit the politics forum on halflife2.net are at least skeptical on the subject of 9/11. Which is pretty interesting. I wouldn't say it has as much to do with people's desire to denounce their own government as others would like to believe.


EDIT: Oh come on. Can you people stop being such limp dicks all the time? Sorry if I thought my original question was an interesting one. I didn't realize that talking about something socially relevant and controversial might be a bit too hard for most people here, and Samon - I'm officially giving you the finger.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I think a more interesting question is whether Elvis is really dead or was abducted by aliens.

 

[lame-o]

Well then there's apparently something wrong with you. It's obvious that Elvis was abducted by aliens.