DOJ Sues Arizona, but not for civil rights violations

[No Limit]

You keep making the same argument, which is that the law will make racist cops racist.

You really don't have the right to saying anything about my argument until you answer my basic question. Why did they add the reasonable suspicion clause in there, why not simply make the law so everyone, no matter what race, needs to have ID when they step outside or go to jail until they can prove who they are? Until you answer that question do me a favor and stay out of this discussion.

 

[Ridge]

Because the law is about combatting illegal immigration. People who are willingly breaking a law every day of their lives SHOULD be concerned about getting caught.

 

[No Limit]

Because the law is about combatting illegal immigration. People who are willingly breaking a law every day of their lives SHOULD be concerned about getting caught.

So you are ok with only forcing mexicans to carry ID. If you say "everyone needs to carry id under this law" I will stab you (read above everyone is NOT required to).

 

[Ridge]

Everyone DOES carry ID. Well, except for you, apparently. And I'd be 100% behind an AZ police dept arresting you and detaining you until they could prove your citizenship.

 

[No Limit]

How hard is this for you to comprehand. The fact that everyone carries ID is irrelevent, you are either playing dumb or well, you are dumb.

What is relevent is that they didn't make this law so everyone has to carry an ID. They made this law so only people of color would have to carry ID. Again, is that OK with you? Or should they have made the law so every person in this country that wants to step foot outside needs to have a state approved ID to do so? Please for once just answer this question.

 

[Ridge]

How hard is it for you to understand it is a law that goes after people that break laws. Yes they have a right to be in this country, but why shouldn't they do it the legal way, like millions of others do? Then they could actually make MORE money, because they would have to be paid minimum wage.

 

[No Limit]

 

[Tyguy]

No Limit -> Asks Question
Ridge -> Doesn't Answer Question
Repeat

They have to start targeting the employers and housing markets. There's a very simple solution but people are afraid of the very system that is trying to solve the problem.

 

[No Limit]

But you don't think the people that already here should be allowed to stay in some capacity? Many of them have families here, some were here for decades.

I think they should greatly increase border security while allowing some kind of work permit program.

 

[Ridge]

But you don't think the people that already here should be allowed to stay in some capacity? Many of them have families here, some were here for decades.

I think they should greatly increase border security while allowing some kind of work permit program.

If a guy has a dozen stolen cars at his house, she he be allowed to keep them, with no restitution, because he's had them for a while?

 

[No Limit]

Ride, I usually don't say this to people because it's not polite and dismissive of their ideas. But you're an idiot. So forgive me if I don't feel like wasting any more of my time trying to rehabilitate a retarded person.

 

[Ridge]

You are saying that although people have been breaking the law constantly, for many years, we should just apologize to them for the inconvenience and give them a pardon, am I wrong?

 

[No Limit]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you are an idiot.

 

[Ridge]

Well please answer my question. Otherwise you've just reversed TyGuy's assessment...

 

[No Limit]

Well please answer my question. Otherwise you've just reversed TyGuy's assessment...

Why? You'll just ignore it. Let me prove that for you real quick:

Have you ever went over the speed limit in your car? Yes? Should we never allow you to drive again?

 

[Ridge]

Speeding in my car (which I do, yes) does not cause increases in violent crime and rampant drug trade, nor does it assassinate law enforcement officers.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

But it's not the same. If they end up arresting some white guy that has money and has lived here all his life the police department would be sued for a huge amount of money. So this won't apply unless the cops know they can get away with it, and the only time they can do that is if they target brown people because they can always fall back on that "reasonable suspicion" clause.

Sure, if they target a rich white guy that will happen. If they target a rich Mexican dude it will happen as well. Wealth is universal in that aspect. You're not looking at it from the point of view of field enforcement. It'll be used in whatever capacity it can be in order to detain people as long as possible. People didn't expect terrorism detainers and the such to begin to be used on a regular basis, but they have been. Whatever legal ways a department has to 'get their way' they will, even if it runs afoul of the constitution itself or at least the spirit of it.

You are saying that although people have been breaking the law constantly, for many years, we should just apologize to them for the inconvenience and give them a pardon, am I wrong?

An amnesty yes. Your example of the stolen cars is not the same. This is a civil violation (eg: speeding, failure to pay fines, etc). A criminal violation is something completely different.

There needs to be a 'wet foot dry foot' policy just like there are for Cubans. You can prove establishment in the country and should be able to stay. Caught at the border crossing, deported. If it is that way for Cubans that make it ashore, why should it not be the same for other nationalities? Cuba is communist, but Mexico is in middle of a very violent and unstable transition of power to narco-cartel control of the government.

Speeding in my car (which I do, yes) does not cause increases in violent crime and rampant drug trade, nor does it assassinate law enforcement officers.

Drug smuggling shouldn't be tied to migrants. Cartels will smuggle THEM in and charge them up the ass while their at it. Blaming a family for increased violence isn't logical and you know they're not responsible for it. Also the Pinal County deputy you're speaking of that was shot from AK47 fire- was from smugglers ready to drop off a load and return to Mexico. Those are not immigrants, they're smugglers, and they don't stay in the United States once they complete their mission. They're not illegal immigrants, they're illegally crossing the border back and forth, yes, but they're not immigrants.

 

[Ridge]

An amnesty yes. Your example of the stolen cars is not the same. This is a civil violation (eg: speeding, failure to pay fines, etc). A criminal violation is something completely different.

Why should we give them an amnesty? Because its the easy thing to do? Easy does not always mean best.

There needs to be a 'wet foot dry foot' policy just like there are for Cubans. You can prove establishment in the country and should be able to stay. Caught at the border crossing, deported. If it is that way for Cubans that make it ashore, why should it not be the same for other nationalities? Cuba is communist, but Mexico is in middle of a very violent and unstable transition of power to narco-cartel control of the government.

We do it with Cuba because of political discourse. Mexico has elections, they can change those who lead them if they want. Instead of staying and fixing the problem, they just take the easy route and go elsewhere.

Drug smuggling shouldn't be tied to migrants. Cartels will smuggle THEM in and charge them up the ass while their at it. Blaming a family for increased violence isn't logical and you know they're not responsible for it. Also the Pinal County deputy you're speaking of that was shot from AK47 fire- was from smugglers ready to drop off a load and return to Mexico. Those are not immigrants, they're smugglers, and they don't stay in the United States once they complete their mission. They're not illegal immigrants, they're illegally crossing the border back and forth, yes, but they're not immigrants.

Somebody's gotta be the receipient of those drugs. And the gunfire thing has happened more than once. Including this situation, where the attack came from Mexican Army humvees providing escort to the smugglers.

MSNBC Report from 10/07 Dont hear them demanding action anymore...

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Why should we give them an amnesty? Because its the easy thing to do? Easy does not always mean best.

It's not what's easiest. Are we talking about saving America money and reducing identity theft? Because an amnesty would do both. Are we talking about doing the right thing (keeping law abiding immigrant families around) or are we talking about making a political point? Amnesty, coupled with MAJOR border controls, are the only way to get anything done. SB1070 is causing so many issues here, mainly for law enforcement departments themselves. They do not want to enforce this law because it's the feds job (which they have NOT been doing) and it exposes them to HUGE legal risks that they have no way to defend against.

We do it with Cuba because of political discourse. Mexico has elections, they can change those who lead them if they want. Instead of staying and fixing the problem, they just take the easy route and go elsewhere.

Political assassinations have already begun which was not so widespread in the past years. I dont think you quite understand how rampant corruption is in the Mexican system (both legislative and particularly executive.) Elections are not a viable means to end that. Mexicans should have the same policy as Cubans due to the instability. Why are their two different systems? That is completely wrong.

Somebody's gotta be the receipient of those drugs. And the gunfire thing has happened more than once. Including this situation, where the attack came from Mexican Army humvees providing escort to the smugglers.

MSNBC Report from 10/07 Dont hear them demanding action anymore...

You just supported everything I said. Americans are the recipients of the drugs, so I dont quite understand what you're saying by asking that. And the Mexican Humvee incident (which did happen, and IS as dramatic as it seems) supports what I've been saying as well. It's not immigrants causing the violence. It's the cartels. Don't mistake the humvee as having been under orders or something or driven by illegal immigrants. These are guys that are payed well by the cartels to do whatever they want them to. They return to Mexico after accomplishing their mission- they are NOT immigrants. Liek I said, they crossed illegally but they're not immigrants. There is a huge issue at the border and I am not disputing that. I am disputing you linking the majority of immigrants to these events. Just because both come from Mexico they're not one in the same.

 

[Ridge]

An amnesty is pointless because, just like after Reagan did it, there was no further effort by the feds to secure the border. And that was in great economic times. No way would we be able to afford the costs to secure the border, while giving instant citizenship to 10 million people in today's economy.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

An amnesty is pointless because, just like after Reagan did it, there was no further effort by the feds to secure the border. And that was in great economic times. No way would we be able to afford the costs to secure the border, while giving instant citizenship to 10 million people in today's economy.

An amnesty is only pointless IF nothing is done to secure the border. Of course that doesn't make sense. Think of amnesty as 'cleanup' of the oil spill. Securing the border is capping the well. YOU HAVE TO DO BOTH. Not just one or the other. Securing the border is a lot cheaper than trying to deport every illegal immigrant, especially when the majority of them are not contributing to violent crime/felonies and they're contributing heavily to the sales and income tax. What needs to be stopped is identity theft for work, which would be a moot issue with an amnesty (fake SSN not needed.)

If you think we couldn't afford to secure the border you're wrong. The feds just refuse to do it.

 

[Ridge]

But very few of them are paying income tax. Typically those working in kitchens or in fields, doing their job for $1/hr under the table.

I think the best way to stem the tide is to actively go after businesses that hire illegals, and with massive fines.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Nah man they get about $4 an hour here under the table, but still that's very well below minimum wage and next to unliveable. They'd likely pay little to no tax as farmers if citizens, anyway. They do contribute heavily to the sales tax of the area. There has been a loss of revenue in the state and in municipalities here as lots of hispanics (legal and illegal) have gone to Utah, New Mexico, California or Nevada. This has hurt the economy here and added more properties to the housing market (driving down prices further.)

 

[No Limit]

Speeding in my car (which I do, yes) does not cause increases in violent crime and rampant drug trade, nor does it assassinate law enforcement officers.

Umm Ridge, speeding kills more people in this country each year than illegal immigration does. So again, we should take your liecense away and never allow you to drive again, right? Otherwise you would be a total hypocrite.

 

[No Limit]

Sure, if they target a rich white guy that will happen. If they target a rich Mexican dude it will happen as well. Wealth is universal in that aspect. You're not looking at it from the point of view of field enforcement. It'll be used in whatever capacity it can be in order to detain people as long as possible. People didn't expect terrorism detainers and the such to begin to be used on a regular basis, but they have been. Whatever legal ways a department has to 'get their way' they will, even if it runs afoul of the constitution itself or at least the spirit of it.

They will use race to cover their asses. They will assume any brown person that can't properly speak english is illegally and they will be able to use the reasonable suspicion clause to cover their asses. If they detain a white guy that they had no reason to suspect was here illegally that kind of defense won't stand up in court.

So again, it all goes back to them targeting people by race, nothing more.

 

[Ridge]

Umm Ridge, speeding kills more people in this country each year than illegal immigration does. So again, we should take your liecense away and never allow you to drive again, right? Otherwise you would be a total hypocrite.

Speeding doesnt kill anyone. Its crashing that does.

 

[No Limit]

Neither does crossing the border illegally you ****ing genius.

 

[Ridge]

Im saying its not the source event that ruins lives, its the effects...

 

[No Limit]

God damn dude. Like I said, I'm not going to waste any more time trying to rehabilitate a retarded person. You simply can't understand how flawed your argument is when the answer is right there in front of you.

You said illegals broke the law so we need to kick their ass out because illegal immigration has a side effect of crime and other problems. But then when I brough up speeding because speeding has the side effect of killing way more people each year than illegal immigration does your brain overloaded and at this point I have no clue as to what the **** you are talking about.

Does illegal immigration lead to higher crime? Obviously. Does speeding lead to much higher crashes which result in more deaths? Obviously. Now you want to punish all Mexicans, even if they did nothing to hurt anyone here but you aren't willing to punish all people that speed. Is this really that hard for you to understand? Because if it is I'm starting to wonder how you are capable of connecting to the internet or telling which shoe is the right one and which one is the left one.

 

[Ridge]

And you cant understand that illegal immigrants are illegal, breaking the law. The two options are send them back where they came from, or arrest them all and collapse the prison system.

 

[No Limit]

And you apparently don't understand that speeding is also illegal.

 

[Ridge]

And if they catch me, I'll pay the price. Unless the Denver PD goes the way of ICE and just chooses not to do it's job.

 

[No Limit]

And that price is what? A small fine? Cool, lets make the price for illegal immigration a small fine too, cool?

 

[Ridge]

They should also get points deducted off of their drive-oh.

 

[No Limit]

Dont be an idiot, answer the question. Unless this is the point where you start to ignore me as I said you would do above. Which proves that my theory of you being a ****ing retard is dead on.

 

[Ridge]

The price for breaking the law is in the city codes. I get caught doing 5mph over, I pay $80. They get caught being here illegally, they get the boot. Just like California's law. Just like the federal law.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

They will use race to cover their asses. They will assume any brown person that can't properly speak english is illegally and they will be able to use the reasonable suspicion clause to cover their asses. If they detain a white guy that they had no reason to suspect was here illegally that kind of defense won't stand up in court.

So again, it all goes back to them targeting people by race, nothing more.

Of course they are not going to be able to deport anybody that is legal but is detained- but they can be detained. "Behavior" "Accent" and the INS citizenship questions can be used to determine "probable cause" and detain the person until they can prove they're a citizen through ICE / obtaining their identification. That means if they want to detain you in a situation they currently wouldn't be able to, they can pull that out as a 'technicality' (if all the needs of it are met) and just hold you anyway.

Racial profiling will be a huge problem (it already is from many MCSO here) but the problem with SB1070 is that it infringes on everyone's rights. You should not be forced to carry papers or identification on you. That's the bottom line. I am not arguing against deportation. I am arguing against laws like this that chip away at CITIZEN'S freedoms in exchange for security.

The price for breaking the law is in the city codes. I get caught doing 5mph over, I pay $80. They get caught being here illegally, they get the boot. Just like California's law. Just like the federal law.

That's fine and dandy. Like I said- the problem is the way they enforce those deportations. Don't trade freedom for security.

 

[Ridge]

No Limit's argument is that this law will make already racist cops racist.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

No Limit's argument is that this law will make already racist cops racist.

MCSO already enforces the federal law here before that was passed (the only law enforcement in the state that did besides border patrol and ICE which are both fed)

The difference is- they just have to take your word that you're a citizen. All the illegals they deport they detained because of other reasons and determined to be illegal through ICE records. What changes with this law is that a "proof of citizenship" (any number of state issued certificates/ID's) is required if detained on 'suspicion' of being an illegal. Essentially we are FORCED to carry papers on us now, everyone. That is wrong and it infringes on people's freedom. It is just like Obama's health care- it FORCES a citizen to do something. In that case it's buy insurance, in this case its a forced action (carrying documentation)

The only people who should be required to carry documentation are naturalized citizens. I was born in this country so should not be required to.

 

[No Limit]

The price for breaking the law is in the city codes. I get caught doing 5mph over, I pay $80. They get caught being here illegally, they get the boot. Just like California's law. Just like the federal law.

So lets change the law for crossing the border. That's the whole ****ing point that you seem incapable of understanding. Speeding kills way more people than illegal immigration does. The punishment for that is $80. And you are ok with that. On the other hand the punishment for crossing the border 30 years ago and not having hurt anyone is getting kicked out of your home and your country. Which simply is not fair. But you seem to think that's fair. I wonder why and I'm sure race has absolutely nothing to do with it? I'm sure you have a perfectly good explaination for your hypocrisy here.