driving manual - questions

[The Monkey]

My abilities have increased vastly since I was a learner, I would surely expect the same of anyone else...

Not me. I've become a worse driver since getting my licence two months ago. I drive too fast and is generally inattentive.

 

[repiV]

Not me. I've become a worse driver since getting my licence two months ago. I drive too fast and is generally inattentive.

Strange. Maybe it has something to do with the feeling of detachment you get from being in a car...
On the rare occassion I get in a car, it feels so cocooned...it also feels ridiculous to wear a seatbelt when I spend the rest of my time on the road perched on top of a two wheeled missile. It's not hard to see how drivers become so complacent.

I ride very quickly, but that's as a result of my increased ability rather than a lack of sense. Another reason that speed limits are bullshit...when I first started commuting to central London, I nearly got knocked off pretty much every day and I wasn't that fast either.
I work locally now but I had to get up to Oxford Street after work on Thursday... from Hertfordshire to central London in 25 minutes in rush hour (a route that should take over an hour by bike, much longer by car). An incident free journey where I barely had to touch the brakes and I hit 120mph on some stretches. Got off the bike nice and relaxed, which is in my experience a good indicator of whether you've been riding outside of your ability or not - after my commute I used to be stressed, agitated and exhausted for the first month or so.

Or maybe it depends on your attitude to your driving and whether it's just a means to an end or a skill you take pride in developing.

 

[The Monkey]

Strange. Maybe it has something to do with the feeling of detachment you get from being in a car...
On the rare occassion I get in a car, it feels so cocooned...it also feels ridiculous to wear a seatbelt when I spend the rest of my time on the road perched on top of a two wheeled missile. It's not hard to see how drivers become so complacent.

I ride very quickly, but that's as a result of my increased ability rather than a lack of sense. Another reason that speed limits are bullshit...when I first started commuting to central London, I nearly got knocked off pretty much every day and I wasn't that fast either.
I work locally now but I had to get up to Oxford Street after work on Thursday... from Hertfordshire to central London in 25 minutes in rush hour (a route that should take over an hour by bike, much longer by car). An incident free journey where I barely had to touch the brakes and I hit 120mph on some stretches. Got off the bike nice and relaxed, which is in my experience a good indicator of whether you've been riding outside of your ability or not - after my commute I used to be stressed, agitated and exhausted for the first month or so.

Or maybe it depends on your attitude to your driving and whether it's just a means to an end or a skill you take pride in developing.

The exhilaration of driving a car on your own has pretty much to do with it too, I think. I'll probably wear off with time, though.

Driving with a motor bike must be lots of fun, but even though it's 10x more dangerous than driving a car. I don't think it's anything for me, though.

 

[repiV]

The exhilaration of driving a car on your own has pretty much to do with it too, I think. I'll probably wear off with time, though.

Driving with a motor bike must be lots of fun, but even though it's 10x more dangerous than driving a car. I don't think it's anything for me, though.

10x?
Conservative estimate there ...you're over 50 times as likely to be killed or seriously injured on a motorbike than in a car.
Having said that, without a doubt the statistics are massively skewed by the sunny Sunday brigade. Statistically the group most likely to be killed riding a bike in the UK are well-off 35-45 year old males...basically they take up riding as a mid-life crisis thing, do a 5 day intensive course and go out and buy a ridiculously powerful litre sportsbike thinking they have any idea how to ride the damn thing, then kill themselves on it. Even my 600cc sports-tourer will severely punish you if you misuse the throttle.
I would strongly recommend you do it if you've even just been thinking about it, if for no other reason than to make you a better driver. Spend a few months on a motorcycle and I guarantee you will no longer be inattentive in the car - you will be able to tell instinctively what other road users are going to do before they do it, you will stay out of dangerous situations that you would have sleepwalked into before and you will be faster, smoother and safer.
I've heard many people say that six months on a bike did more to improve their roadcraft than an entire life spent driving a car. I think the roads would be far safer if everyone had to spend some time on a bike before they were allowed to drive.

 

[The Monkey]

Most of the motorsycle riders in Sweden are over 50, and most of them can't drive. Until 1980 or something, the driver's licence for cars and motorbikes were the same. IE, if you passed the car driving test you were also allowed to drive a motor bike. This is gone now, but anyone who got their licence before 1980 are still allowed to ride a bike, even if they've never touched one. So now we got old men looking for something fun to do in their old age, and assumes that they can drive a bike just because their licence says so. Needless to say, it ends up bad a lot of the time.

 

[repiV]

Most of the motorsycle riders in Sweden are over 50, and most of them can't drive. Until 1980 or something, the driver's licence for cars and motorbikes were the same. IE, if you passed the car driving test you were also allowed to drive a motor bike. This is gone now, but anyone who got their licence before 1980 are still allowed to ride a bike, even if they've never touched one. So now we got old men looking for something fun to do in their old age, and assumes that they can drive a bike just because their licence says so. Needless to say, it ends up bad a lot of the time.

Yeah, it would do. Training is so important. There are so many aspects to riding a motorbike both safely and well, the only way you're going to learn if you aren't taught properly is either very slowly or the hard way.
If you hadn't been taught not to, you might think there's nothing wrong with accelerating hard or applying the brakes while leaning the bike over. And you could well pay with your life for that mistake.
You soon learn to be smooth because it's very difficult to adjust your speed on a bike once you have committed to a turn - if you try to make anything other than minor adjustments with the throttle or brakes while cranked over the bike will throw you off. The worst is idiotic pedestrians that walk out in front of you on a bend...

It is a huge amount of fun though - it's more like flying than driving. If you corner the bike far enough over, you actually see the world sideways as the horizon line is nearly vertical.
And on heavily congested UK roads it's by far the most sensible method of personal transport.

 

[lePobz]

And on heavily congested UK roads it's by far the most sensible method of personal transport.

Live fast and die young huh?

Don't you find that you're always having to take evasive action from car drivers that just don't see you? It's amazing how quickly it can go from great fun to absolute tragedy. It's the same for driving. One second you can be driving along happily bopping along to some oasis, and in the blink of an eye you're throwing the wheel around with your life flashing before your eyes. You can be as sure and confident as you like about your own skills, but with the amount of complete IDIOTS on the road (car drivers and bike riders alike) you're far from safe at any point.

 

[repiV]

Live fast and die young huh?

Don't you find that you're always having to take evasive action from car drivers that just don't see you? It's amazing how quickly it can go from great fun to absolute tragedy. It's the same for driving. One second you can be driving along happily bopping along to some oasis, and in the blink of an eye you're throwing the wheel around with your life flashing before your eyes. You can be as sure and confident as you like about your own skills, but with the amount of complete IDIOTS on the road (car drivers and bike riders alike) you're far from safe at any point.

Nope. Initially I was having to always take evasive action, but after a while you develop a sixth sense. It's hard to explain, but you just feel when someone is going to pull out on you and you take the appropriate action to avoid it happening.
On a bike, your own skills must include the ability to compensate for the idiocy of other road users at all times. It's non-negotiable.
If someone pulls out on you because they didn't see you, it's your fault. It's the only way you can look at it if you want to stay alive.

Race exhausts make a massive difference too.

 

[sinkoman]

The sheer number of drivers who can't perform a proper hill start is really quite surprising actually. 90% of the time they'll roll down the hill for a little bit before moving off...if you did that on your test you'd fail.
Just remember it doesn't necessarily have to sound neat and tidy - give it as much revs as you want and use the clutch to control the level of acceleration. That will guarantee you smoothly start to roll up the hill, it just might sound a bit like a cat being strangled as you do it. When you get more of an instinctive feel for the controls, you can do it without revving unnecessarily high.

You know what takes the cake?

People who somehow manage to roll back a foot or two on a hill start, even though they're driving an automatic.

Srsly folks, can you get any ****ing dumber?

Live fast and die young huh?

Don't you find that you're always having to take evasive action from car drivers that just don't see you? It's amazing how quickly it can go from great fun to absolute tragedy. It's the same for driving. One second you can be driving along happily bopping along to some oasis, and in the blink of an eye you're throwing the wheel around with your life flashing before your eyes. You can be as sure and confident as you like about your own skills, but with the amount of complete IDIOTS on the road (car drivers and bike riders alike) you're far from safe at any point.

I'd say that it's far easier to avoid an accident, or dangerous situations in general, on a bike, than on a car.

You've got all that extra lane position, so even if somebody does something stupid, you can just change your lane position to avoid getting hit.

I've done it a few times. Some dumb bitch pulled infront of me on the main thoroughfare, so I just squezzed into the far right portion of the lane between the sidewalk and her cageomobile, cracked open the throttle, and made a face at her while I passed on bye.

 

[repiV]

You know what takes the cake?

People who somehow manage to roll back a foot or two on a hill start, even though they're driving an automatic.

Srsly folks, can you get any ****ing dumber?

The standard of driving is generally appauling, and by some defiance of Darwin we apparently have the safest roads in the world in the UK.
I firmly believe the key to good quality driving and by extension safe roads lies in making prowess behind the wheel/handlebars socially desirable.
We have a rudimentary stepped licensing system for motorcycles - you take CBT to validate your provisional entitlement to ride up to ~14bhp 125cc bikes on L plates, then once you've passed your full test you're allowed to ride any bike so long as the power output does not exceed 33bhp.
The restriction period expires after two years, or if you're over 21 then you can take a different test on a >46bhp bike, usually a commuter 500 like an ER-5/CB500 etc. and that allows you to ride any bike.
It would be good to see this idea thought through a little better and extended to cars - basic test allowing you to drive small cars, no motorways, no night driving, and as you progress up the ladder you get an increase in entitlements and perks...not necessarily because I think limiting new drivers/riders to underpowered vehicles is particularly necessary or even that desirable, but because it gives people a real incentive to actually learn how to drive properly.
The stuff they teach in advanced courses not only doesn't resemble anything you learn to pass the driving test, you'd actually fail for using many of the techniques they teach.

I'd say that it's far easier to avoid an accident, or dangerous situations in general, on a bike, than on a car.

You've got all that extra lane position, so even if somebody does something stupid, you can just change your lane position to avoid getting hit.

I've done it a few times. Some dumb bitch pulled infront of me on the main thoroughfare, so I just squezzed into the far right portion of the lane between the sidewalk and her cageomobile, cracked open the throttle, and made a face at her while I passed on bye.

Bike's far more maneuverable, no question, but you wanna be careful of getting carried away with that attitude matey.
If you have to avoid an impending collision then you've already ****ed up. Think of it as if you've already lost a layer of armour. Outer armour = spotting developing hazards and preventing them from becoming dangerous situations, secondary armour = taking evasive action, last ditch effort = your gear.
The more developing hazards you prevent from becoming dangerous situations, the less times you're going to have to take evasive action. And if you have to take evasive action enough times, you're going to get hit eventually and it's really down to the tarmac gods whether your gear is then enough to save you.
Every time you have a near miss like that, think about how you could have avoided it altogether and incorporate that into your riding. It could save your life one day.

 

[sinkoman]

Bike's far more maneuverable, no question, but you wanna be careful of getting carried away with that attitude matey.
If you have to avoid an impending collision then you've already ****ed up. Think of it as if you've already lost a layer of armour. Outer armour = spotting developing hazards and preventing them from becoming dangerous situations, secondary armour = taking evasive action, last ditch effort = your gear.
The more developing hazards you prevent from becoming dangerous situations, the less times you're going to have to take evasive action. And if you have to take evasive action enough times, you're going to get hit eventually and it's really down to the tarmac gods whether your gear is then enough to save you.
Every time you have a near miss like that, think about how you could have avoided it altogether and incorporate that into your riding. It could save your life one day.

Well, I don't actually rely on that maneuverability. I'm just saying that in the event that something goes horrifically wrong, so long as you see it's about to happen, your chances of outmaneuvering the offender on a bike would most likely be higher than in a car.

 

[repiV]

Well, I don't actually rely on that maneuverability. I'm just saying that in the event that something goes horrifically wrong, so long as you see it's about to happen, your chances of outmaneuvering the offender on a bike would most likely be higher than in a car.

Aye, true. Think about what I've said, though...I know you've just started riding on the roads and I know I had a lot of very lucky escapes when I was fresh out of the test centre. One in particular springs to mind - approaching a side road on the left, guy waiting to turn right (remember we ride on the left in the UK), in a big ****off SUV (Range Rover or something), looks me in the eye and then pulls out right in front of me! I held down the horn, swerved towards the other side of the road and slammed open the throttle to get past him. Fortunately he stopped in the middle of the road leaving me a gap...I'm not entirely sure why I opted to point and squirt instead of just hitting the brakes. But it was really pure luck that my evasive action worked.
Leathers will save you from gravel rash, but they won't stop your bones breaking if you fly into a phonebox. And a motorcycle helmet is only designed to absorb an impact equivalent to falling from ride height onto the ground - if you headbutt a car at free travelling speeds then you're going to die.
Not trying to preach or anything, but a lot of riders have the attitude that they're invincible with their gear on. The reality is that all the gear in the world won't help you if you hit a solid object at speed.

 

[kirovman]

The only gear that you could wear that could protect you sufficiently would be... a lorry.

 

[sinkoman]

Aye, true. Think about what I've said, though...I know you've just started riding on the roads and I know I had a lot of very lucky escapes when I was fresh out of the test centre. One in particular springs to mind - approaching a side road on the left, guy waiting to turn right (remember we ride on the left in the UK), in a big ****off SUV (Range Rover or something), looks me in the eye and then pulls out right in front of me! I held down the horn, swerved towards the other side of the road and slammed open the throttle to get past him. Fortunately he stopped in the middle of the road leaving me a gap...I'm not entirely sure why I opted to point and squirt instead of just hitting the brakes. But it was really pure luck that my evasive action worked.
Leathers will save you from gravel rash, but they won't stop your bones breaking if you fly into a phonebox. And a motorcycle helmet is only designed to absorb an impact equivalent to falling from ride height onto the ground - if you headbutt a car at free travelling speeds then you're going to die.
Not trying to preach or anything, but a lot of riders have the attitude that they're invincible with their gear on. The reality is that all the gear in the world won't help you if you hit a solid object at speed.

HL2.net, the only place on the internet where people actually care about your personal safety.

 

[repiV]

HL2.net, the only place on the internet where people actually care about your personal safety.

Nonsense...I just want you to narrowly avoid death due to my advice one day and feel so indebted that you buy me an R1.

:upstare:

 

[AKIRA]

yes, this is good. I'm really getting used to the car even on really steep hills. I'd like to thank all of you for helping me out because you're posts actually helped a great deal.

Cheers

 

[The Monkey]

The standard of driving is generally appauling, and by some defiance of Darwin we apparently have the safest roads in the world in the UK.

Yes, Finland and The UK have the same rate of car deaths:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_safety#The_scale_of_the_problem

Maybe the problem in the UK isn't as big as you imagine it to be, repiV.

 

[repiV]

Yes, Finland and The UK have the same rate of car deaths:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_safety#The_scale_of_the_problem

Maybe the problem in the UK isn't as big as you imagine it to be, repiV.

People still have no idea how to drive. The most frustrating thing of all is how people (not just the occassional one, but most people) cruise in whatever lane they feel like on the motorway. In fact, you'll often see more vehicles in the overtaking lanes than in the travelling lane - it's not uncommon to have lanes 2 and 3 packed full of cars and absolutely no traffic in lane 1. It's utterly ludicrous. Retarded morons always getting in my ****ing way for no reason whatsoever, often the only way to get past is to weave between the lanes.
Two, three and four lane roads are supposed to vastly increase capacity but I can usually make faster progress on a single-carriageway road as I can move onto the other side to overtake. The other night I was coming home at 3 in the morning on a six-lane dual carriageway (three in each direction), no traffic for miles and then all of a sudden I see one car in the inside lane, two in the middle lane and two in the outside lane, travelling about a foot off the bumper of the car in front and blocking all three lanes. The **** is the matter with these people?

Btw, our safety record was far better than it is now before they introduced speed cameras and obsessive speed enforcement whilst ignoring all else. We were leagues ahead of Finland...

 

[The Monkey]

People still have no idea how to drive. The most frustrating thing of all is how people (not just the occassional one, but most people) cruise in whatever lane they feel like on the motorway. In fact, you'll often see more vehicles in the overtaking lanes than in the travelling lane - it's not uncommon to have lanes 2 and 3 packed full of cars and absolutely no traffic in lane 1. It's utterly ludicrous. Retarded morons always getting in my ****ing way for no reason whatsoever, often the only way to get past is to weave between the lanes.
Two, three and four lane roads are supposed to vastly increase capacity but I can usually make faster progress on a single-carriageway road as I can move onto the other side to overtake. The other night I was coming home at 3 in the morning on a six-lane dual carriageway (three in each direction), no traffic for miles and then all of a sudden I see one car in the inside lane, two in the middle lane and two in the outside lane, travelling about a foot off the bumper of the car in front and blocking all three lanes. The **** is the matter with these people?

Btw, our safety record was far better than it is now before they introduced speed cameras and obsessive speed enforcement whilst ignoring all else. We were leagues ahead of Finland...

That's funny, in Sweden those cameras have saved several hundreds lives.

 

[IchI]

Hold down a constant amount of gas so you can hear a slight rev and you know it won't stale as soon as you take of the clutch. Anyway, hold that amount then just life up your clutch. If you really hate it just get a deisel. They are much easier and smoother to start. Infact, if you are clever enough you can get a desiel moving without any gas at all and just clutch work. Some desiel cars can also get going of the start in 3rd gear. Its hard to do and you might hear a lot of chugging but its amazing how reliable desiel cars can be. I loved my dads marc2 golf so much until the bastard sold it for a new crappy polo

 

[repiV]

That's funny, in Sweden those cameras have saved several hundreds lives.

They tell you the same here, but it's a complete fabrication.

The reality is that they directly and indirectly cost thousands of lives, and with a little critical thought it's not difficult to see why.

I've nearly been wiped out on one occassion when I overtook a lorry and then ended right on top of a speed camera which had been completely obscured by the lorry. 40mph over the speed limit, my only choice was to slam on the brakes and risk being rear-ended (which nearly was the result, as someone had decided to follow my overtake) or lose my license.
Safety. What a joke.

Clicky

Clicky

 

[The Monkey]

That's why you stick to the speed limit, and the cameras are there to make sure that happens.

 

[repiV]

That's why you stick to the speed limit, and the cameras are there to make sure that happens.

Please don't preach false road safety to me...overtaking slowly is a very dangerous thing to do, especially on a bike where you a) can't be seen and b) get blasted around by the turbulence caused by large vehicles. A biker who hangs around next to lorries is a biker with a deathwish.

Speed isn't dangerous, a sudden lack of speed is. The sudden lack of speed you might experience from being hit by a lorry for example. And you still haven't addressed the point that speed cameras cause inattention. There was a case a while back where a girl was killed when she walked out into the road and the driver didn't have time to react as he was looking at his speedo passing by a camera.

Sticking to the speed limit also commands mental attention that should be focused elsewhere on important things, and if you could safely go faster then it also makes your mind wander.

The real cause of accidents

I don't particularly expect you to figure out the obvious at this stage, they brainwash people good these days with this "speed kills" nonsense...eventually, however, you'll realise that I'm completely correct. And that the very notion of a speed limit sign being able to tell you an appropriate speed for that stretch of road at that time in the current weather and traffic conditions for all types and abilities of vehicle and driver is completely and utterly absurd.

 

[The Monkey]

Please don't preach false road safety to me...overtaking slowly is a very dangerous thing to do, especially on a bike where you a) can't be seen and b) get blasted around by the turbulence caused by large vehicles. A biker who hangs around next to lorries is a biker with a deathwish.

Speed isn't dangerous, a sudden lack of speed is. The sudden lack of speed you might experience from being hit by a lorry for example. And you still haven't addressed the point that speed cameras cause inattention. There was a case a while back where a girl was killed when she walked out into the road and the driver didn't have time to react as he was looking at his speedo passing by a camera.

Sticking to the speed limit also commands mental attention that should be focused elsewhere on important things, and if you could safely go faster then it also makes your mind wander.

The real cause of accidents

I don't particularly expect you to figure out the obvious at this stage, they brainwash people good these days with this "speed kills" nonsense...eventually, however, you'll realise that I'm completely correct. And that the very notion of a speed limit sign being able to tell you an appropriate speed for that stretch of road at that time in the current weather and traffic conditions for all types and abilities of vehicle and driver is completely and utterly absurd.

I'm no saint, and I, as I've already stated, break speed limits often, specially during passings.

But without speed limits we would have anarchy. As you've said there're lots of morons on the roads, and without the risk of punishments for speeding, people would drive much faster than they can handle. As for the case with the girl, it's tragic yes, but that's not due to the speed limits, but due to the incompetence of the driver.

Cameras lower speed, which greatly reduces the length it takes to stop, as well as increasing our ability to detect dangers.

 

[lePobz]

I drive with a hell of a lot more care and attention at 125mph than I do at 30mph. If that's worth anything.

 

[Taboo]

It took me about a week and a half to get completely used to it.

And until that time I suggest you become very familiar with the location of all the hills and slightly uphill streets in your area.

 

[AKIRA]

It took me about a week and a half to get completely used to it.

And until that time I suggest you become very familiar with the location of all the hills and slightly uphill streets in your area.

yea last night i went up this extremely steep hill and stopped in the middle of the road just to practice in case i ever run into a hill like that and have to stop for a stop sign or a traffic light..anyway i tried the let go of the clutch and hit the gas method but i ended up skidding my tired which made a really bad ass noise and sped off lol. I then went around and stopped in the same place but this time used the parking brake method which went smoothly.

Most hills that have stop signs and traffic lighs around my city are nowhere near as steep as where i practiced so I think i can manage them just fine.

 

[repiV]

I'm no saint, and I, as I've already stated, break speed limits often, specially during passings.

Yes but you think there's something wrong with it - there isn't. In fact, you're probably driving at the speeds that you do because they feel like a safe and appropriate speed at the time.

But without speed limits we would have anarchy. As you've said there're lots of morons on the roads, and without the risk of punishments for speeding, people would drive much faster than they can handle. As for the case with the girl, it's tragic yes, but that's not due to the speed limits, but due to the incompetence of the driver.

That's just not true - the vast majority of people don't obey speed limits anyway. Autobahns are not particularly dangerous as far as motorways go, and they have no speed limits. Also see the Isle of Man.
I believe that we would not see a great deal of difference in the speed of traffic if speed limits were abolished, and we would all be a lot safer because people would be focusing on their driving instead of their speedo.

It's tragic and it happened because of speed cameras changing driver priorities.

Cameras lower speed, which greatly reduces the length it takes to stop, as well as increasing our ability to detect dangers.

They don't lower speed for anything more than a few seconds, and they definitely, DEFINITELY don't increase our ability to detect danger. Completely the opposite - they distract us from detecting danger and keep our attention focused on our speedo/looking for cameras instead. That's why they're so dangerous.
The only purpose speed cameras serve is to scam ordinary people out of their money and licenses.

 

[repiV]

I drive with a hell of a lot more care and attention at 125mph than I do at 30mph. If that's worth anything.

It's worth a huge amount...