Drum machine

[sinkoman]

I was thinking about getting a drum machine, just to play around with and have fun with.

Now, i've been drumming for a good 10 or so years, so i'm not looking for something that'll try to teach me to play with time signatures and such, i'm just looking for something not too expensive (50-100 USD), preferably analog (can be digital), that has the basic functionality you'd expect on a drum machine.

Since i'm looking to go really cheap on this, all i'm looking for sound wise is nothing that has that digitally sampled 80's sound. I really like that hollow, empty, and kinda raw sound from "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger". As i'm a drum machine noob though, I have no clue if this comes from an uber expensive piece of hardware, or some sort of post processing

A huge plus would be something that wouldn't be too hard to rip into and bend, or just something that won't be too hard to mess around with electronically.

Suggestions?

 

[Crushenator 500]

No idea, but you might wanna look at this thread http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114784

 

[sinkoman]

No idea, but you might wanna look at this thread http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114784

UMG, i'd love to find a synth too.

Thanks, will check out that thread

 

[Vegeta897]

Good luck finding a good synth in that price range. Cheapest ones are like $400.

You'd be better off buying a nice midi keyboard and getting a soft synth.

But as for a drum machine, there is a selection for you there at that price range. Go check out Zzounds, great site.

Example: http://www.zzounds.com/item--ZOMMRT3

Just search around Zzounds or Google. Personally I wanted my drum machine to have a 16 step sequencer right on the unit, but unfortunately none like that had any but there's really nothing wrong with that, it was just my preference.

What I ended up choosing in that thread of mine that Crush posted is an interesting unit, it is a percussion machine yet each drum sound is generated like a synth. This results in very old-school stuff like an 808, even allowing some minor synth type FX to give your patterns some life.

Anyway, that's probably not what you want, if you want both a synth and a drum machine with that budget there's really nothing for you. The only choice would be to buy a midi interface and go learn a soft synth like Reason for FL Studio.

If you're more into drums I'd recommend the Akai MPD16 http://www.zzounds.com/item--AKAMPD16

Quality velocity sensitive drum pads there, connect it to your computer and you can do whatever the program is capable of, which is very vast.
Software can do all the things you want, but if you were like me and absolutely had to have hardware, which is pretty much irrational, almost to the point of being childish (heheh), I'd save up your money. Do you have any experience in music production? The drum machine I posted is fairly noob friendly, hit the pads and a sound plays, record simply by playing the drums to the pattern, and there you go. If you don't mind spending time learning something, I'd suggest to you what Harij did to me, the MC 303... Drums and synth in one, you can find it on eBay for about $200 IIRC. Though that's pretty much oldschool sounding drums which you've said you didn't want. I'd make a compromise if I were you though, the 303 is a great little package and it servers both of your purposes for a not too bad price.

Get on AIM

 

[sinkoman]

Well, that's the whole thing. I'm quite comfortable playing on an acoustic drum set, so I wanted to try apply my knowledge of rhythm, timing, and musical blending on a 16 step (is that what you called it?) drum machine. The ONE feature that I really want in the machine that I chose, is an 808/505 esque interface (a programmable drum machine, is that the proper terminology?), PREFERABLY analog.

BTW, I have no problem going second hand or modifying my machine hardware wise, so i'm open to "sucks standard but if you do X mod to it then UMFG" things.

OK, so now that I think of it, what i'll probably end up doing is running the drum machine into my PC (via a few mixing tables and the likes), into a sequencer. I don't think i'll need to find a synth, i've found a few VST plugins that i've been messing around with. I figure, i'll spend money on something i'll know how to use

Still looking around for drum machines (meaning I still want your help in picking one out).

I wish harij was here

 

[CrazyHarij]

the tr-707 (from 1985) goes for around 100 bucks and it kicks the shit out of most modern machines it's digital, but the envelopes on each beat are analog. it has very nice retro sound, some of the beat sounds are just lovely.

the 606 goes for around 300 bucks, and it's second only to the 808. simple as that. from 1983, completely analog. it's amazingly fun to program, very organic. you can mod it so you can change pitch, decay and stuff on it, which basically means you've turned the bitch into an 808.
the 606 changes practically everything depending on temperature, the sound, the tempo, heck even the presets. lovely little unit.

you'll need a dinsync-> midi converter unit which goes for very cheap to midi it together with your computer though. the 707 has both midi and dinsync, so it can both be the master to the 606 and your computer sequencer. the 707 tempo is pretty.. fluid.. so it can affect your tracks in cool ways.
i could post some sound examples of the both drum machines if you want.

then again there are some good, and great, modern drum machines with much more capabilities, synth abilities etc, it really depends on what you're looking for. vegeta knows more on that than me. i see it like this, if you want something hardware, you might aswell get something analog/something that vastly differs from the digital domain, because the digital domain is already more capable of doing what most modern drum machine do best.

I really like that hollow, empty, and kinda raw sound from "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger". As i'm a drum machine noob though, I have no clue if this comes from an uber expensive piece of hardware, or some sort of post processing

909 or sampled breakbeat + distortion device/vst.

 

[knut]

My dad is thinking of getting one, too, so this thread and the other is most useful.

 

[Vegeta897]

Analog stuff for sure is not cheap, I don't see why it's so important to you that you want true analog equipment, it's not very easy to tell the difference especially if you're new to the stuff. I'm beginning to wonder if you know what you're talking about

I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say running the drum machine to the PC with mixing tables to use the PC as a sequencer... If you want a drum machine with onboard sequencing with 16 steps... Mixing tables deal with audio, sequencing is MIDI... Not the same thing. The drum machine is producing the sound, you could use the drum machine to send midi data to the PC to trigger notes in whatever software you are using, or you could have the PC send midi to your drum machine to trigger parts on it. I'm not sure you know quite what you want.

Now that I see you're on AIM I'll talk to you there to get some things straight.

 

[sinkoman]

Well, I meant i'd be recording AUDIO tracks off of the drum machine, and mixing them with MIDI synth tracks via a soft sequencer.

 

[CrazyHarij]

a little 707 ditty.
www.grendosa.net/crazyharij/707 breakbeat.mp3

..and almost 5 minutes of the 606 doing what it does best:
www.grendosa.net/crazyharij/606 4 life.mp3

 

[Vegeta897]

The 707 breakbeat reminds me of a song by AFX... Something from Analord. The kick and those toms that come in in the beginning. Heh.
Neat clips there Harij.

In my opinion those machines would get boring by themselves, which would be Sinko's case. You've just got those drums to work with and that's it... I mean they sound great and would be a great part of your setup if you had one, but the ER-1 for example can offer infinitely more variation in the sounds you can produce. Just last night I found a way to make a synth that I can play with the properties of, like a filter. I'll record a track right now.

Edit: Tried some new things in this near the end, I'm amazed by the versatility, I love this thing

http://media.putfile.com/Acid-Tribe

I tried turning the Decay way down and got that thumpy type sound, awesome.

 

[CrazyHarij]

yeah AFX uses the 707 alot in analord and drukqs

i dont think sinkoman should get hardware, go with reason or something instead..

 

[Vegeta897]

Yeah that's what I thought would be better as I said in my first post, he could get himself a keyboard and a drum pad, like the K49 and the MPD16. Combined value of around $220.

 

[sinkoman]

Well, my main reason for wanting a drum machine, is that I can't stand the sound of most software generated drums (sampled or otherwise).

Thanks for the keyboard recommendations though, i'll definitely check that out.

 

[Vegeta897]

Well, my main reason for wanting a drum machine, is that I can't stand the sound of most software generated drums (sampled or otherwise).

Erm? Software can be any sound you want... Analog would just be a higher quality sound that is hardly noticeable, I mean the MP3 you just heard from Harij is exactly what you'd hear out of software because it too has been sampled down to 44.1khz, you understand.

 

[CrazyHarij]

analog is a whole different world, it's not so much an issue of quality, it's a different means to creating and processing the sound..

I mean the MP3 you just heard from Harij is exactly what you'd hear out of software because it too has been sampled down to 44.1khz, you understand.

that's incorrect, because the original recording was made with analog means, and the final wav was delineated through analog circuitry.

what he's hearing is an mp3 of the original PCM sound that was decoded from what came out of my mixer. there's a large difference between my tracks before and after they're processed through my mixer, it's more like they have their own space and depth after it's gone through. sharp high frequencies are delineated and the sound is more even. there's some slight compression going on.

an mp3 (or wav for that matter) removes characteristics of the sound, in the digital domain that's what happens, but it doesn't make the original sound "software".

a drum machine, especially an analog drum machine, never sounds the same. if you sample an 808 beat and play it over and over again, it's going to sound just like that, something being played over and over again. if you get a real 808 and play the same sequence, it's going to sound much more organic because you never hear the exact same waveform twice.

mixer software is vastly inferior to analog mixing, because of lots of complex math shit, rounding errors that software does (especially in relation to bass), etc etc.

the point is, software isn't shit, it can do tons of great stuff, but it can help delineating it with analog mixing, compression and EQ, those are the aspects that software sucks at as of now. if i'd recommend anything, i'd recommend an analog mixer and some compression or EQ hardware rather than some cool synth. it's going to do much more for your sound.

you can discuss hardly noticeable, but the thing is, most people never notice what actually is different between a completely native (digital) or analog recording, but they are going to prefer the analog recording because for some reason, it sounds warmer, more deep and organic. the same thing with an analog drum machine vs software, most people won't hear what makes them different, but one of them is going to sound much more organic.

alot of modern electronic acts run their stuff through as much analog circuitry as they can muster, compressors, mixers etc, just to delineate it. this makes stuff like minimal techno and dub never sound really repetitive, because even though it's the same thing over and over again, the waveform is shaped differently.

bob dylan's modern times was recorded with tape recorders, check it out. it has a wonderful warm sound in comparison to most digital productions these days.

 

[Vegeta897]

Ah yes I had forgotten momentarily about all the nuances that occur when using analog stuff, that is indeed true. But the point I'm making is that I don't think Sinkoman really needs to aqcuire perfect sound or shell out extra money to do so, when he's only just getting into electronic music or hardware.

 

[sinkoman]

Ah yes I had forgotten momentarily about all the nuances that occur when using analog stuff, that is indeed true. But the point I'm making is that I don't think Sinkoman really needs to aqcuire perfect sound or shell out extra money to do so, when he's only just getting into electronic music or hardware.

Well see, the whole reason I want an external drum machine, is because it'll get used for more than just making base beats for electronic music.

I've got allot of other uses for a hardware drum machine that don't pertain to making beats for synth tracks (mixing beats with djembe and conga tracks that i've made, fooling around with friends who play guitar and bass, jam sessions where the point is not to create musical fusion, but to just try to piece in different repeating sections slowly to create something that sounds good).

 

[CrazyHarij]

Ah yes I had forgotten momentarily about all the nuances that occur when using analog stuff, that is indeed true. But the point I'm making is that I don't think Sinkoman really needs to aqcuire perfect sound or shell out extra money to do so, when he's only just getting into electronic music or hardware.

yeah, i totally agree.

 

[Vegeta897]

I understand how you feel about the need for hardware Sinko. Software can do so much more but that's not the point... As Harij once told me, creativity is born from limitation. Nothing in software beats sitting down with a box and doing shit on it to make music. Heh, sounds kind of odd but there's no reason you should feel bad about wanting to do that, I say go for it.