Dynamic Terrain ?

[clarky003]

Dynamic Terrain..iness application ?

just when I thought there was nothing else people could have the pleasure chatting about, I found a really kool yet totally neglected aspect of the Source engine. it doesnt seem to have been really deeply talked about in any thread whatsoever.

Valve never went into to much detail on this.. atleast not as far as I remember, correct me if im wrong

some thoughts,

The high Dynamic terrain that you can choose to deform really has possibilitues.., like say.. one moment your on flat ground,, ,, the next on a mountain. !,, when they say Dynamic, is this just elevation change, ? im sure there could be some intresting discussion on how it could be used in the final game.. and perhaps how it would interact with the physics system,, simulating real time earthquakes perhaps? floor cave ins? waves of earth moving out, from a shock wave... a tremors mod?

who knows

chat away.

 

[Ian]

they show a little bit of dynamic terrain in the e3 video from last year.

 

[Hoppe]

is source still planned to have deformable terrain?
and if so to what extent? (can i knock down walls with an rpg or blast
a
foxhole with c4)

*** Yes Source supports deformable terrain. You could mod the things
you are referring to.

This is quote from that valve email answers thread.

 

[clarky003]

yeh but thats all we where shown,, it was just morphed into a hill, which was neat. and there must be atleast a dozen possibilities it can be applied with,.. its just intresting,, imagine a MP map with a constantly changing dynamic surface ,, cool

 

[ShinRa]

yeh but thats all we where shown,, it was just morphed into a hill, which was neat. and there must be atleast a dozen possibilities it can be applied with,.. its just intresting,, imagine a MP map with a constantly changing dynamic surface ,, cool

yay! and imagine the server crashing after 2 minutes of dynamically changing surfaces every 2 seconds

 

[crabcakes66]

yay! and imagine the server crashing after 2 minutes of dynamically changing surfaces every 2 seconds

err.....no

 

[Whatup1049]

yay! and imagine the server crashing after 2 minutes of dynamically changing surfaces every 2 seconds

Why would you even think that would happen? Stupid people...

 

[sk1llfatal]

the server will deform but nothing if completely destroyable, you can mod this

 

[BlackMesaDude]

sweet, now im sure some good modders will make most of it.

 

[clarky003]

yeh I thought youd beable to do that.. it would make for some intresting grenade bounces .

 

[slicktick]

I think that it will have some cool implemintations, maybe things to do with the Xen world coming into ours, with things buldging and then popping out. And I think that the earthquake thing would work, you just move the terrain up and down rapidly, creating the illusion of one.

 

[clarky003]

yeh, or vibrate it slightly,, to make physics objects react to the ground they are resting on,, shaking and perhaps falling over. it would be the most immersive ingame earthquake simulation ever,, and thats another thing added to the list of why the Source engine is going to rule the roost on the mod scene

 

[Sprafa]

It was said that Geomod would not be in HL2...I always had my doubts (based off the HL2 E3'03 vid...)

 

[clarky003]

so Geomod is in Source for the mod aspect only? Oh Poo, I hope not it would be nice to be suprised by terrain bulging because of a creature under the sand or something.. it could be good for the scare factor. large scale stuff can be very overwhelming to the player. and it could create some good atmosphere.

 

[PvtRyan]

It was said that Geomod would not be in HL2...I always had my doubts (based off the HL2 E3'03 vid...)

This has nothing to do with Geomod. With the tech in Source, you could easily mod it to make a hole in the ground when you shoot it, but this is based around displacement maps, while Geomod does it with Boolean operations which require vertex manipulation. So Source just moves the vertices up and down, Geomod creates new ones.

And this can only be done on terrain, not buildings.

And I think they'll be numerous examples of what these displacement maps can do, they didn't make the tech for nothing

 

[clarky003]

they didn't make the tech for nothing

so its displacement maps that can be added ey.. kool , what about conrolling it point by point for a morph?

 

[sk1llfatal]

gabe said the the terrain is deformable but youll not be able to destroy everything in hl2, they also said, that you could mod this destroy stuff

 

[Apos]

And this can only be done on terrain, not buildings.

You can do it on any surface. Enginewise, there is no difference between the terrain and buildings, or any other map geometry. It's all just brushes.

 

[Varsity]

You can do it on any surface. Enginewise, there is no difference between the terrain and buildings, or any other map geometry. It's all just brushes.

Terrain is a NURB primitive/heightmap that can be freely manipulated. Buildings are fixed BSP.

 

[RogueShadow]

Terrain is a NURB primitive/heightmap that can be freely manipulated. Buildings are fixed BSP.

Whatever you say, it doesn't change the fact they quite litterally said every object can have it's displacement map dynamically modified.

 

[KiNG]

i hope apos is right, i'd love to blow shit up.

im sure valve has plenty of surprises for us, they've even told us we have not seen everything source as to offer, not to mention the things they will eventually put in. they dont intend to allow their engine become outdated and will continue to add features.

 

[crabcakes66]

Isnt this just re-hashing what we have known for a while?

The level of destructability is completly up to the level designer....

 

[RogueShadow]

Yep, that's right.

 

[sk1llfatal]

yes thats exactly what im trying to tell you

 

[Varsity]

BSP can't be changed. There is no way. Unless you're going to destroy the player's computer with thousands of entities, buildings by and large aren't going to be destructible.

 

[crabcakes66]

......... buildings by and large aren't going to be destructible.

How many times are we going to repeat the same thing over and over?


We already know its possible to have a 99% destructible enviroment.....just becuase they wont do it in HL2 for continuity reasons does not mean its something that cant be done....

Its up to people making the level/map/world....

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Its not feaseable.... it really isnt


There are entity counts to look after while mapping. And Break points on buildings add to that count.

Too many and it wont even compile let alone run on anyones computers.


Parts of the world can be destructable but no mapper would make the whole world destroyable. It just wouldnt work out.

 

[crabcakes66]

Its not feaseable.... it really isnt


There are entity counts to look after while mapping. And Break points on buildings add to that count.

Too many and it wont even compile let alone run on anyones computers.


Parts of the world can be destructable but no mapper would make the whole world destroyable. It just wouldnt work out.

Feasible and possible are not the same thing.....

 

[The Dark Elf]

How many times are we going to repeat the same thing over and over?


We already know its possible to have a 99% destructible enviroment.....just becuase they wont do it in HL2 for continuity reasons does not mean its something that cant be done....

Its up to people making the level/map/world....

Crabcakes. It IS NOT GOING TO WORK

I'll put money on any mod that makes a map with all its buildings destructable, being unplayable due to terrible frame rates and other problems that will crop up. Not to mention you'll need to make all the parts that are destructable as brush entities. Or build it all out of props. Neither of which is a wise move.

Don't believe me? Go make a map in HL1 where you can destroy all the walls. Source is not as different as some would like to think from the old engine. The same problems from before are still around. And they will be until Valve get their act together and stop trying to line their own pockets with half baked conversions of old games and make a proper engine that isn't backward compatible and doesn't use brushes atall, and has proper coding with polygons in mind. THEN you might get to have your dream of fully destructable maps. But even if that happens. I don't see the shortsighted majority of the mod community making the most of it or planning ahead. Many will simply make a map with a nuke, blow up the nuke, completed the game, oh what fun.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I hate to say it but I agree.


Valves source engine is amazing. Its wonderfull for making games, mods and is very flexable.


But it isnt going to be used to make a virtual world.

Its gona be at least another 5 years before we see comepletely destructable enviroments that are realistic in looks and behaviour and size with real time lighting systems that dont have any flaws, liquid physics and enough polygons to make completely realistic objects.





The source isnt the pinicle of game engines.


It is probably the best for making games with at present.


But there are still large improvements to be made.

 

[crabcakes66]

Crabcakes. It IS NOT GOING TO WORK

I'll put money on any mod that makes a map with all its buildings destructable, being unplayable due to terrible frame rates and other problems that will crop up. Not to mention you'll need to make all the parts that are destructable as brush entities. Or build it all out of props. Neither of which is a wise move.

Don't believe me? Go make a map in HL1 where you can destroy all the walls. Source is not as different as some would like to think from the old engine. The same problems from before are still around. And they will be until Valve get their act together and stop trying to line their own pockets with half baked conversions of old games and make a proper engine that isn't backward compatible and doesn't use brushes atall, and has proper coding with polygons in mind. THEN you might get to have your dream of fully destructable maps. But even if that happens. I don't see the shortsighted majority of the mod community making the most of it or planning ahead. Many will simply make a map with a nuke, blow up the nuke, completed the game, oh what fun.

Well you would know better than me.

I only base my comments off what I have seen and read.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Well you would know better than me.

I only base my comments off what I have seen and read.

Well the problem is most of that has come from magazine reviewers who have to fill a whole page after seeing 15 seconds of video, or a couple of screenshots. I think its called Journelistic licence, basically BS for 1000 words to fill up this space Ed.

Parts of the maps will be destructable, just like in HL1. But fully, no, be a bad idea even when it is entirely possible. Games themselves would have to be re-written from the ground up. A great many game idea's will have to be entirely thought out again to make sure of any eventuallity. Since with an entirely destructable map, nobody knows for sure when a player is going to try something. So they'd have to plan for everything and still make sure the game is playable. That will add years onto development time, and while its a nice idea. I'd rather have developers worry about the actual story, not about the possibility of little jonny blowing a hole in a wall then going for a wander miles in the wrong direction.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

So basically the map devs will have to give subtle 'hints' as to which parts are destructable/deformable, right?

Who has any cool ideas other than the 'shoot gasoline barrel for wall to crumble'


edit: actually this is a bit OT, thread's about dynamic/deformable terrain

 

[ShinRa]

If valve wanted to, would they be able to update their mapping technique through steam after the game was released? In other words use something other than BSP and brushes?

 

[Crusader]

That is something a bit bigger than an update, more like an overhaul.

Why would you want a fully destructable map anyway? Seems like a waste of resources to me :/

 

[The Dark Elf]

If valve wanted to, would they be able to update their mapping technique through steam after the game was released? In other words use something other than BSP and brushes?

Crusader is right. It would involve recoding large chunks of the engine, remaking all the maps, months or more bug testing, redesigning almost everything about the game to plan for the unexpected, pretty much rebuilding so much of the engine and game it would be easier to scrap it and start again from scratch.

 

[Rupertvdb]

you seem pent up Fenric, assuming that the remakes of old games are half baked...i'm guessing that is based on the 15 seconds of footage you saw from the E3 vids, and then accusing journalists of bullshitting on the basis of a similar video related judgement...ignoring the fact they have played the game.

It may well be possible to create a highly destructable map, i personally don't think so, but you don't rail people so hard for thinking about it.

 

[PvtRyan]

You can do it on any surface. Enginewise, there is no difference between the terrain and buildings, or any other map geometry. It's all just brushes.

I don't think terrain is the same kind of geometry as regular brushes.
And besides, if it were possible, the builiding/wall needs to have a high tesselation for any displacement to look nice. Which will just add to the w_poly count. And it would also seriously screw up the lightmaps, which isn't a real problem on terrain.

 

[Crusader]

I feel guilty for actually looking forward to CS: Source, considering how everyone else feels about it!

 

[The Dark Elf]

you seem pent up Fenric, assuming that the remakes of old games are half baked...i'm guessing that is based on the 15 seconds of footage you saw from the E3 vids, and then accusing journalists of bullshitting on the basis of a similar video related judgement...ignoring the fact they have played the game.

It may well be possible to create a highly destructable map, i personally don't think so, but you don't rail people so hard for thinking about it.

Saying their right, then saying their wrong. Make up your mind will you