Engines

[Cheater]

Come on guys, EvilEwok2.0 isn't that bad...

I have read through the entire thread that I posted yestoday, title "Source tech still in development ???" and the thread was closed at the end cuz it merely turned into a flamewar.

I just want you guys to take this neutrally and not personnally and biasly. In the thread "Source tech still in development???", EvilEwok2.0 didn't say anything bad to spoil half life 2 and he didn't even compare the GAME half life 2 to other games(you can check this yourself by reading critically what he said there). He was discussing the technical aspects of the upcoming ENGINES and compare the ENGINES' abilities. Many thing he had said were true.

Me myself, I know nothing about making games and engine stuff. I used to think that half life 2 rules all over other games and that its engine is the best out there. I used to save up all my hardearn to buy hl2 and a videocard that can run it perfectly(i'm still saving up). However, it didn't come out at the supposed release day which was even confirm officially by Gabe and few other who work for Valve. After the 30th September, there wasn't any news news on hl2 and I finished Max payne 2 few weeks ago, I start getting bored. Therefore I started looking at other fps games, like doom3, stalker, far cry, etc (I used to think they are crap compared to hl2). To my surprise, I find out that the engines of these games have almost every thing that Source engine have and that they even have some very cool features that Source doesn't have. In addition, those games looks really amazing. At the same time, I heard that hl2 is pushed back to April 2004, so I was wondering whether Valve is still developping and improving the technical aspects the Source engine in order to make hl2 a better game. That's why I was posting the thread "Source tech still in development ???". I didn't mean to make it a flamewar and spoiler thread.

 

[Styloid]

He doesn't really argue.. he provocates. He doesn't have any points (mainly because most developers are holding back their info) yet he makes plenty of bold statements/assumptions and force them on people and at the same time plays the righteous, unbiased voice of everything. It's frustrating to talk with him because he doesn't really listen and is more adamantly against Source than most most HL2 fanboys are for it.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Last thing we need is a thread devoted to an Ewok mate, especially an evil one who's already been banned, then comes back only to complain about this forum.. It's pretty obvious he's just out to cause trouble. Don't give him the satisfaction of spoiling this forum by adding threads about him too. I imagine its also in the wrong section aswell, but that ain't my place to say so

 

[Chris D]

Right, let me start again after this bastard forum decided it'd clear my last post.

All these new features we're starting to commonly see in the upcoming games such as normal mapping, high polygonal models, high quality textures and materials, DirectX9.0 features (such as motion blur, HDR etc), physics, large maps, beautiful water effects, life-like foliage and dynamic shadows/lighting are all natural progressions with the increase in the power of our CPUs, RAM and GPUs. They are just natural progressions. They can now be done so people are now doing it. Source engine, admittedly was the first engine to show us this kind of stuff in detail, but there were other engines developing it as well. Just because Source isn't the only engine doing it anymore doesn't mean a thing because at the end of the day it will be the actual games that count.

It's all very well having people fall realistically from towers and to have light fittings swinging in the wind but if STALKER for example had no storyline, was repetative and all the gameplay satisfaction of smacking your face into a brick wall then what does the engine matter? It'd be a poor game. Likewise with HL2. It's all very well being able to see Gordon in the mirror, realistic flashlight effects eminating from the HEV suit and Alyx's tits jiggling up and down while she runs, but if the characters have the depth of a puddle, the storyline was written by a 10 year old and takes 2 hours to complete then the game is shit.

There's too much focus on what the engines can do and not enough focus on the things that matter. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled to bits about all these new fancy bits and bobs but I still want it to be part of a playable game.

I'll keep this thread open again, providing the bitching about EE2 stops immediately and it stays on topic. As soon as there's any sort of bitching it's getting deleted with no warning

Try and keep the discussion aimed towards HL2/Source/CryEngine etc. too.

EDIT: Edited the thread name so we don't have a thread about Evil

 

[Cheater]

I'm no where to be professional in judging which engine is better than the other, but I can feel for myself what looks good and what looks impressive by looking at what these engines have done.

I was impressive by stalker's engine for its ability of making real world environment in game. It enhances the realizm of the game.

few samples:

I feel like I'm promoting the game stalker, but I'm definitly not trying to spoil hl2. I know I'm not beloved by the forum, but I like this forum and I want everyone here to see more.

 

[MultiVaC]

We've seen Stalker pictures. If it interested us we would go to Stalker sites. Besides this site, I go to Stalker, Doom 3, FarCry and MOH: PA sites. HL2 is my favorite next-gen game and this is my favorite site for it. We can make decisions on our own, thanks.

 

[ph34r t3h cute]

Yea what Elf said

Personally I think the D3 one looks better (its pretty plain too see its got higher poly stuff... lighting blah blah) but the HL2 one does not look bad at any rate, looks good in its own way

As for stalker.. I dont know anything about it so I wont comment

 

[Cheater]

yeah so far, hl2 is still my favor, but I just merely like it better than other game because of its mods.

Talking about gameplay, i should trust valve, but i can't be certain yet, since i haven't played it.

 

[koopa]

Cheater makes some good points about Source. With the possible exception of HDR, there doesn't appear to be much in there, technology-wise, that's particularly 'new'. From what we've heard so far, graphically it'll be a really-polished piece of work, but solidly 'last generation'. Doom 3 is probably the only true 'next-gen' engine mentioned - a lot of the clever effects in Stalker seem to be down to really high-quality texturing.

 

[Styloid]

Cheater, I think you're mainly looking at the impressive modelling in Stalker. All new engines are reaching the point where they can render an accurate semblance of the modeller's intentions with millions of polygons at once. The world doesn't have to be as limited as it has been. Source could easily produce these kinds of shots with millions of polygons, 3d skybox, etc (with more realistically behaving HDR as well).
Also realize that how 'pretty' a picture is also affects your opinion of it.
(reminds me of 28 days later when they used rich, formal shots of london and didn't really suggest the isolation, confusion and fear that should have been used.)
Those are real pretty skies.

 

[Chris D]

There's a lot of things in Source that are new, it just doesn't seem that way though because so many other engines are following a similar progression. Am I the only one seeing that?

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Chris_D
There's a lot of things in Source that are new, it just doesn't seem that way though because so many other engines are following a similar progression. Am I the only one seeing that?

I can think of a lot of things that are really refined in Source (the eye animation, for example) - but I wouldn't really call that new, so much as an evolutionary step. Other 'new' things are already appearing in other games (which means the engine was probably finished months ago).

 

[Cheater]

some people say that each engine is developped for the need of its game, like source for hl2 and doom3 engine for doom3. I don't really agree with this(don't flame me plz), just take a look at mods, mods can be any kind of environment, situation, story, players. So if the engine can generate all these kind of effects to simulate the world the best, it will be the best engine for making games. Doom3 engine will be license to other company to make other genre of games, so it needs diversity and abilities. The same thing for the Source engine, see Vampire Masquerade which is not produced by Valve and the future mods which will be realistic, tactical, alien, ghost, historical stuff, army, etc. Therefore, Source also need diversity and abilities.

 

[Chris D]

What I'm trying to say is there are a lot of things in Source that we won't have seen in other engines before. I'm not saying they're unique to the Source engine because they are appearing in other engines now too. But I can go through a big list of things in Source that haven't yet been seen in a previously released engine.

 

[Chris D]

We haven't yet seen half of the capabilities of Source. Valve will only be using the Source engine to the potential it needs to create HL2. It'll then be the mod makers jobs to take that engine and transform it and edit it into an engine that will meet the needs of their games.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Chris_D
What I'm trying to say is there are a lot of things in Source that we won't have seen in other engines before. I'm not saying they're unique to the Source engine because they are appearing in other engines now too. But I can go through a big list of things in Source that haven't yet been seen in a previously released engine.

That's not really a fair comparison - HL2 isn't out yet, and I could probably find a big list of things in MOHacific WhatsItCalled that haven't been seen in a previously released engine either. Naturally, the longer Valve wait before finishing, the less impressive it's going to look compared to everyone else.

I'd be curious to see that list (not being pedantic, just interested) - I can only think of a couple of features.

 

[Chris D]

Well there'll only be a few actually unique to HL2 because many other engines that are in development at the moment are starting to use the same features.

 

[Cheater]

yeah that's i am thinking, source is not finished yet. See natural selection is better that half life 1. I don't mind playing hl2 without realistic dynamic lighting&shadowing, but I'm looking forward to play a future mod with this feature. It can be really fun to know where the ennemies are by seeing their emphasizing shadow, so players have to be very careful in chosing tactically their position and placement.

 

[Chris D]

Source is finished, but other people will add to it.

HL2 does have dynamic shadow and lighting

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Cheater
yeah that's i am thinking, source is not finished yet. See natural selection is better that half life 1.

I'd be very, very surprised if Source wasn't finished yet - that'll probably have be finished* earlier this year, if not before.

* - finished as in zero new features, just bug fixes.

 

[Shuzer]

Wasn't Source code-locked already? So how can they be working on the actual engine? Also, if they were working on actual Source, how would they have it for VtMB?

Edit: Thought so, okay then

 

[Cheater]

The tech is finished enough to make hl2, but it's not yet finish for making the future mods and games. People will add a lot more feature to source engine. Just compare today's mods with hl1, u see the difference. Just install the fusion pack on cs, it looks 10x better.

 

[Styloid]

Originally posted by koopa
Cheater makes some good points about Source. With the possible exception of HDR, there doesn't appear to be much in there, technology-wise, that's particularly 'new'. From what we've heard so far, graphically it'll be a really-polished piece of work, but solidly 'last generation'. Doom 3 is probably the only true 'next-gen' engine mentioned - a lot of the clever effects in Stalker seem to be down to really high-quality texturing.

If you've read a recent John Carmack interview, he said (about his latest engine) that he could move in either two ways: a more realistic but still static world, or a less realistic but more dynamic world (lighting wise). I think (and see) that Doom3 is choosing the latter while HL2 is the former.
I also don't think you should worry about Source competing against other engines (though there is little assurance from Valve at the moment).
Remember that HL2 at least has:
- Vgui2 system that is a program in a program. It can be used for infinite purposes by modders.
- Character acting/lipsynch/scripting system plus postscreen processing for machinima
- Shader technology. Use of over 1200 shaders and ability for modders to write their own shaders for graphical effects like water, HDR or magnifying glasses.
- Steam gives easy way to distribute and update mods
- LOD, unlimited detail in large maps, large amounts of characters, runs on low end machines
- In depth physics/materials system, vehicles and deformable terrain.
- Advanced AI- the combine door incident sparked doubt but in an interview it's been said that the Strider was first programmed to roam in open water. Valve only decided to have fun putting them in a city for the demo. Then the strider ducked under the walkway after trying to destroy it on its own.
- Animation system (the reason Troika licensed Source). Faces, body, cloth/hair, ragdoll (and partial ragdoll), etc.

I know there's more from people more knowledgable than me but this is getting to be a really, really long post.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Cheater
The tech is finished enough to make hl2, but it's not yet finish for making the future mods and games. People will add a lot more feature to source engine. Just compare today's mods with hl1, u see the difference. Just install the fusion pack on cs, it looks 10x better.

They won't give the source code to Source away, so Valve are the only ones going to be adding new features. The difference in todays mods versus HL1 is down to better texturing and modelling rather than anything else, I think.

 

[Chris D]

Yep because you can incorporate side rolls and dives, prone stances, new game modes, particle effects and weather effects simply by texturing and modelling

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Styloid

If you've read a recent John Carmack interview, he said (about his latest engine) that he could move in either two ways: a more realistic but still static world, or a less realistic but more dynamic world (lighting wise). I think (and see) that Doom3 is choosing the latter while HL2 is the former.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. It'll be fun to find out how good the physics engine in D3 will be (I suspect it'll be great).

(this is not a flame):
Remember that HL2 at least has:
- Vgui2 system that is a program in a program. It can be used for infinite purposes by modders.
Moddable UI's have been around since Doom.
- Character acting/lipsynch/scripting system plus postscreen processing for machinima
That's gonna be really interesting - UT2K4 will probably head that way, but Source should lead the pack.
- Shader technology. Use of over 1200 shaders and ability for modders to write their own shaders for graphical effects like water, HDR or magnifying glasses.
Standard since Q3.
- Steam gives easy way to distribute and update mods
Well, Steam is an auto-updater with a credit card system tacked on
- LOD, unlimited detail in large maps, large amounts of characters, runs on low end machines
LOD techniques have been common for at least 10 years (and that's just in games, never mind SGI/etc).
- In depth physics/materials system, vehicles and deformable terrain.
Physics is not at all new - hopefully this is the best implementation though

I didn't think it had deformation, to be honest.

- Animation system (the reason Troika licensed Source). Faces, body, cloth/hair, ragdoll (and partial ragdoll), etc.
Yeah, the animation system looks really, really good.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Chris_D
Yep because you can incorporate side rolls and dives, prone stances, new game modes, particle effects and weather effects simply by texturing and modelling

Dives/stances just screw around with the viewpoint. Particle effects were already in the HL engine - at least, I remember crashing the machine with them while modding

 

[MultiVaC]

Originally posted by Chris_D
Yep because you can incorporate side rolls and dives, prone stances, new game modes, particle effects and weather effects simply by texturing and modelling

Yeah, and bullet time, RTS elements and co-op modes.

 

[Chris D]

Fresh code still needs to be written for them. Existing code still needs to be edited.

 

[spitcodfry]

Originally posted by koopa
a lot of the clever effects in Stalker seem to be down to really high-quality texturing.

http://www.gamershell.com/download_2782.shtml

Download and watch that. I haven't seen lighting in Half-Life 2 that is as advanced as what's shown in the latter portion of that trailer. You'll know what I mean when you see it; flashlight scanning over objects in a darkened area: simply breathtaking.

EDIT: I wanted to take note that from all the next-gen shooter preview videos I've seen, which includes STALKER, Deus Ex Invisible War, and Far Cry, they all seem to sport the same style of dynamic lighting found in Doom III, whereas Half-Life 2's present demonstrations on lighting seem to be a bit bland. I'd like to see the generic shoot the swinging lamp in a room (of which all previously mentioned shooters have shown in preview videos) to display Half-Life 2's dynamic lighting capabilities. Anyone else want to see what Half-Life 2's lighting can really do? I know I do.

 

[koopa]

Yeah, but I'm trying to say that we won't be able to play with the rendering module. Sure, we'll be able to mod it.

I thought I saw somewhere one of the Valve guys saying we'd get hooks into the renderer, or something - does anyone else remember this?

 

[Styloid]

for my post I didn't mean that most of it was 'revolutionary' or anything like that. I just kind of hinted that in these areas I see Source excelling more than most engines (there is no one engine that has all of these things at once... I could also be wrong since we have such a limited scope to see). You know, some games may have 'feature x' but that doesn't mean that it excels with 'feature x'.

 

[Asus]

HL2 supports 1 dynamic light source i believe.
Not sure if that is limited to the Source as well.
So the lights on the wall could be static and then the hanging light could be dynamic casting shadows changing as it or models move. But you wont see 2 dynamic shadows from 2 hanging lights.

What's funny is at the start of that stalker video right as it switchs from real to ingame (when he is zoomed in) it looks like HL2 style.
The walls use bumpmaps for that i think, for the great look with the flashlight. HL2 does that as well, but you havnt seen any scenes of high gloss tile walls in HL2. We've seen rock walls that respond well to light but rocks are plain so i dont expect them to make those rocks like high gloss tile.

 

[spitcodfry]

Originally posted by Asus
We've seen rock walls that respond well to light but rocks are plain so i dont expect them to make those rocks like high gloss tile.

That's a good point you bring up. We haven't really seen a proper demo of what HL2 lighting can do. I would like to see some high gloss effects like those seen in the STALKER vid.

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by spitcodfry
That's a good point you bring up. We haven't really seen a proper demo of what HL2 lighting can do. I would like to see some high gloss effects like those seen in the STALKER vid.

like the HDR video? ;p

 

[spitcodfry]

Originally posted by Xtasy0
like the HDR video? ;p

More along the lines of whats in the STALKER vid...light source interaction with glossy surfaces...ala flashlight from STALKER vid.

 

[Shuzer]

Originally posted by spitcodfry
More along the lines of whats in the STALKER vid...light source interaction with glossy surfaces...ala flashlight from STALKER vid.

Yeah, that was pretty cool.. although, I see no reason HL2 won't do stuff like that.. it already does it with normal light sources (although there's not a whole lot of DX9 stuff to be seen in what got got released..)

 

[Mr. Redundant]

at this point, with nothing decent to play
its whatever gets released first. :/
the money I have put aside (for like 8 months now) for HL2 is burning a hole in my wallet.

 

[spitcodfry]

Originally posted by Mr. Redundant
at this point, with nothing decent to play
its whatever gets released first. :/
the money I have put aside (for like 8 months now) for HL2 is burning a hole in my wallet.

Do what I did and just plop that dough down on reserve paid in full so you don't have to worry about it anymore. I'm awful with money, so that's why I did that.

 

[Sp0ck]

Such conflicts between engines exist only inside the minds of confrontational gamers. In truth, each engine is molded to its own purpose, and those functions which are not relevant to its purpose are undeveloped. To say that one engine is better than another is folly, for the two engines being compared were built and molded for two different purposes. This diversity is beneficial to the industry and, ultimately, the gamer as well. Therefore, instead of debating which engine is better, we should rejoice that each engine is so diverse.


The wise Surak teaches where two things have differences, they become greater than the sum of both of them individually. And also, the spear in the other's heart is the spear in your own.



May we continually seek after Wisdom.

Live Long and Prosper.