Erik Johnson's Words of Wisdom

[ríomhaire]

Ports != Mods

It's not a port. It's being redone from scratch.

 

[Noarh]

What erik is sayong (I think) is modders should focus on making a playable mod as their no.1 priority. This way they let the community play their concept, wether it is rather simple, like GM or something more complex like Dystopia. Personally, I spend very little time 'watching' a mod in development, but I'll usually download and play any mod that I like the sound of. Even with an sp tc mod, I think the best idea would be to get a beta of the first level or something out there, to see wether it's a sucsessful concept, what works, before you spend lots of time creating artworks and assets.

With regards to the mp/sp thing, it may seem that the mp sector is becoming more dominant, especially to those who are part of online communities and forums, but the vast majority of sales come from singleplayer-centric games. I'm fairly sure this is true: When the developers started work on ut2004, they did a survey and found that 9/10 people who bought ut2003 never played it online, which sounds impossible for a basically multiplayer focused game, but shows you where the gaming public's focus is.

 

[Nu Zalem]

I agree with Erik, man was that some good stuff. I can also agree that games with SP content do sell more than games w/just MP at this point in time, as stated by Pi.

 

[Geronimous]

I disagree with some of the things said.

I love the way some large mods are becoming a success of a large team of different talents combining their skills and visions. That needs management. that needs debates, discussions and an almost professional like setup to get a vast amount of work done. You cannot possibly do everything on your own. It does help of course when a mod gets popular. Best example is of course BM(S).

and that is a mod you simply cannot release early and keep improving on with each release.

 

[Cargo Cult]

I love the way some large mods are becoming a success of a large team of different talents combining their skills and visions. That needs management. that needs debates, discussions and an almost professional like setup to get a vast amount of work done. You cannot possibly do everything on your own.

Yes, but the truth is that the vast majority of mods will fail and never release anything playable, however fancy their web forums or media releases are.

Trying out the usual cargo cult routine of acting like a 'professional' developer, complete with studio name incantations and community liaison witch-doctors might look the part, but unless you actually release something, it's all completely pointless.

Except, nobody listens when someone tries to point out the idiocy of the 'standard' mod system. Most modders would rather dress up as game developers than actually develop games...

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Cargo Cult is correct.

Something that's really annoying me at the moment is the way that almost the first thing a mod team does is set themselves up with a name like "Uberdevelopment Studios" - You're not a goddamn studio! It's not a company! It's barely even an organisation...

Look at the previous generation of mods - they were almost always developed by groups of individuals, rather than a pseudo company name.
People need to let go of the idea that they are anything like a professional developer - just work on your mod. If it's good, then doors will open for you. No-one is impressed by you calling yourself a studio.

</rant>

 

[Crispy]

Just to touch back on a point Cargo Cult made earlier.

... Except you have to remember that technically, you're not hiring anyone. People seem to take organising a team far too seriously, with job applications, interviews and so on.

I agree that in the past you never needed to hire anyone, basically because anyone who had any work to show for themselves would have taught themself and/or put a lot of time and effort into learning their discipline. Now that the software used is far more accessible and mods have really taken off, you simply have a lot of people who would call themselves mappers because they've dabbled in VHE, or modellers because they used milkshake one time to make a crate. I think if you really want the right people working on your mod you need to have some sort of screening process. One way of doing this is approaching people who you know are talented. Another way is a forum-wide 'help wanted' request with a lot of sifting through applications.

I agree on the whole 'studio' thing. Most of the time the 'studio' thing is just pointless because the experienced modders will know there's usually no substance behind it and won't bother venturing past the facade to actually see what the team's got. This can actually work to a team's detriment if they do have something to show for themselves but the 'studio' label makes them look amateurish.

In response to Pi's comments, it's all relative. If I start a mod project I know that I'm an amateur who's never worked on a finished mod, let alone ever managed a finished mod. I would be doing it in my spare time which ultimately means it either needs to be finished to a high degree of technical ability but on a smaller scale, or it can be ambitious but work from simple beginnings (release early, improve aesthetics once the mod gains notoriety for it's polished gameplay). There are mods out there whose leaders spend an incredible amount of time in organising the team. If those leaders have the spare time they go down the semi-professional development route. It will never be 100% professional, or a studio, and it's not possible for about 98% of mods out there to do this, but some can manage it. In my opinion there needs to better communication to modders about how much time and effort is required to successfully maintain this 'professional' approach, it's not something everyone can do, especially not without experience.

 

[Al3xand3r]

Meh, just saw this thread... Glad it sparked up some pretty decent discussions... Would have been nice to have provided the source of the topic initially though (doesn't matter anymore I guess).

 

[Crispy]

Meh, just saw this thread... Glad it sparked up some pretty decent discussions... Would have been nice to have provided the source of the topic initially though (doesn't matter anymore I guess).

Erik Johnson works as a Project Manager for Valve Software. The quote in the threadstarter is from him.

 

[Al3xand3r]

I know who he is, that's not what I meant when I said it would have been nice to mention the source...

 

[Asknoone]

Nevermind.

 

[Crispy]

I know who he is, that's not what I meant when I said it would have been nice to mention the source...

Ah, fair enough.

 

[sensai]

I would suggest people read Read Defrag's dev Journal from 4/21/2006. I think it really explains why MODs today are taking the 'pro' development route instead of the way of GMod and CS.

 

[Cargo Cult]

I would suggest people read Read Defrag's dev Journal from 4/21/2006. I think it really explains why MODs today are taking the 'pro' development route instead of the way of GMod and CS.

... Except with the recent re-announcement of Team Fortress 2, the beautifully polished, elegantly designed and sadly unfinished, unreleased Fortress Forever is looking a little less promising.

Oops. :-/

 

[sensai]

... Except with the recent re-announcement of Team Fortress 2, the beautifully polished, elegantly designed and sadly unfinished, unreleased Fortress Forever is looking a little less promising.

Oops. :-/

Please show me where I mentioned anything about FF other than referring to one of their dev's posting. Oh, I'm so sorry, we're talking about why MODs are starting to act like professional development teams in terms of the games they produce. How about we stick on topic, BUDDY?

/Side note: Oh wow, VALVe shows off one screenshot and one video of TF2 and everyone now thinks Jesus is coming back to save the Fortress world (despite the fact it hasn't shown any gameplay - so your 'polished' comment i null and void). Oh, and what's this? FF is doing beta soon (although its closed to start off with?) What? unfinished, unreleased? Do I hear that these words are becoming falsified as the days past? How about you wait and reserve judgment after you play both games like a good, open-minded gamer instead of being a biased, uneducated troll.

 

[Cargo Cult]

Please show me where I mentioned anything about FF other than referring to one of their dev's posting. Oh, I'm so sorry, we're talking about why MODs are starting to act like professional development teams in terms of the games they produce. How about we stick on topic, BUDDY?

I apologise that you failed to understand my comment.

I thought it ironic that a mod developer promoting the monolithic, finish-everything-before-release strategy of mod development was working on a mod that, even before release, was already in danger of being brushed aside in the minds of gamers by a big-budgeted, commercial competitor.

Please parse the English language correctly. I was referring to Fortress Forever as being 'polished', not Team Fortress 2. I really do hope they get a release out soon, before the Valve-sponsored juggernaut makes it something of an also-ran, and I really hope the mod finds its niche. Because if it doesn't, some absolutely stunning work will be wasted...

I'm a modder myself; one who has had great success with an incremental release model. Of the over-a-quarter-million-downloads variety. I went this way after working on a particular Half-Life mod for several years - only for it to die without a release.

So I suppose I do have something to contribute to the discussion.

 

[sensai]

I apologise that you failed to understand my comment.

I thought it ironic that a mod developer promoting the monolithic, finish-everything-before-release strategy of mod development was working on a mod that, even before release, was already in danger of being brushed aside in the minds of gamers by a big-budgeted, commercial competitor.

Please parse the English language correctly. I was referring to Fortress Forever as being 'polished', not Team Fortress 2. I really do hope they get a release out soon, before the Valve-sponsored juggernaut makes it something of an also-ran, and I really hope the mod finds its niche. Because if it doesn't, some absolutely stunning work will be wasted...

I'm a modder myself; one who has had great success with an incremental release model. Of the over-a-quarter-million-downloads variety. I went this way after working on a particular Half-Life mod for several years - only for it to die without a release.

So I suppose I do have something to contribute to the discussion.

Well, I am sorry for my response then. I'll try to 'parse' the English language better, but I kind of need some semi-colons and the word 'and' not in the middle of a list of descriptive adjective (because it looks like the adjectives are split in what they are describing). You wouldn't happen to be a coder would you? Just a side question.

I wouldn't say FF would be a complete waste if, in the long run, it ends up going by the wayside. The team has a bunch of experience under their belt, and a lot of the dev team members have tied in their work with some of their academic studies and are getting credit for it. While there's the possibility that TF2 will take away too much from FF, the production of the game has advanced the individual skills of the team members and hopefully help them further their skills along in a game development career.

 

[bigburpco]

(the episodic nature means I can learn from my mistakes as I go along, with no 'final' release to aim for)

Mods take an absolute age to come out, and because of this most of the mods end up folding 6 months in when they had probably created a decent amount of work. They could've released something, small bits at a time and still be going today.

GO GO EPISODIC

Well, I am sorry for my response then. I'll try to 'parse' the English language better, but I kind of need some semi-colons and the word 'and' not in the middle of a list of descriptive adjective (because it looks like the adjectives are split in what they are describing). You wouldn't happen to be a coder would you? Just a side question.

You're not reading posts properly, because it made complete sense.

 

[The Brick]

Well then Pi, where's zombie master?


Edit: whoa hold on, where's the site?!? http://www.zombiemaster.org/

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Minor hosting problem. It'll be fixed soon.

And it'll be out soon - we're not holding ZM off until it's "finished". As soon as we're happy with the stability of the beta, we'll release it and then continue development.

 

[Crispy]

To get this back on topic:

Is Episodic always a good thing? If you're making a new game and you release episodically, only releasing a few weapons severely reduces the amount of interesting gameplay you can create. Notice how HL2 didn't begin by releasing episodically, it established a story and its weapons, and then expanded this over a new short episode using a good range of existing weapons. Then look at how SiN: Episodes has been slated because of the boring gameplay, which is partly due to a limited arsenal.

Then again, you don't have to have a full arsenal of weapons to play with to make your first episode interesting. From what I read, many ingenious ideas came to light when a dev was up against a wall, forced to squeeze something innovative out of limited resources. I'm not saying Valve was in any way forced to come up with it, but the torch gimmick in HL2: Ep1 used an existing and simple piece of equipment (the flashlight) and created a unique bit of gameplay just to mix it up a bit.

I think episodic game development is not always the simple solution that most people tout it as.

 

[bigburpco]

To get this back on topic:

Is Episodic always a good thing? If you're making a new game and you release episodically, only releasing a few weapons severely reduces the amount of interesting gameplay you can create. Notice how HL2 didn't begin by releasing episodically, it established a story and its weapons, and then expanded this over a new short episode using a good range of existing weapons. Then look at how SiN: Episodes has been slated because of the boring gameplay, which is partly due to a limited arsenal.

Ah, yes, but you forget - if you do release episodically, there is no need to follow a trend of getting weapons (from the weakest to the strongest) like in a full game. The whole structure of the package is radically different. Of course, one could choose to do so, but it's not a very smart move.

If, for example, HL2 was released episodically (as in non-chopped up format like the HL Episodes [each separate entities]), the order of weapons you get would be totally rearranged. In a full game, normally the earlier levels are easier than the later ones. Therefore it wouldn't make any sense to give a player a very powerful weapon and the start and then a lousy one near the end.

For the episodes, they are a bit too short to follow the trend of rising difficulty. You have to remember that with episodes, developers are given more freedom to work with. Episodes don't need to be just full games chopped into bite-size bits (of course, a developer could choose to do this, but it'd be rather daft). Therefore, there shouldn't be any reason for a developer to only release a few weapons, unless it is limited by:

- the story (easily changed)
- design, gameplay purposes (intended)

I believe Ritual put little weapons into Emergence for design and gameplay purposes, and it was their own choice. So, IMO, the arsenal is not limited by episodes; rather, by choice.

 

[Crispy]

"In a full game, normally the earlier levels are easier than the later ones." It's like that for a reason. Making a game hard to begin with alienates players. It's arrogant to assume players are going to be able to use a weapon with finesse the second they lay eyes on it, difficulty scales are there for a reason.

Mind you, I do agree with you that you don't neccessarily have to work from smallest to biggest. Take the Quake weapons, for example. If I were doing Quake episodically I'd maybe put the grenade launcher into the first episode along with the axe, shotgun, nailgun and super shotgun (in fact IIRC the GL was introduced fairly early on as the only permanant counter to zombies). The grenade launcher offers a different style of gameplay because of two main factors: firstly, you have certain possibilities granted (shooting round corners, shooting through holes) and denied (not being able to fire at enemies high above you). Secondly it is a powerful weapon, but needs you to be close to your enemy, meaning you can't use it to take on enemies in open spaces with a lot of health points because you are likely to take a lot of damage in the process. The rocket launcher is more effective because it allows for increased distance between you and your enemy.

I think limiting yourself to a smaller selection of weapons in your first episode can ultimately force you to concentrate much more on the gameplay the weapons entail and how you can mix it up to keep things interesting. It might also force you to reasses your weaponry and come up with something more interesting to replace the standard melee/shotgun/light machine gun selection. Going back to the GL+Zombie combo, I think it can also make you think about how your weapons interact with your enemies. What annoys me most in games is where all weapons affect all the enemies in exactly the same way so it makes little difference if I'm using a rocket launcher or a chaingun, I'm simply being forced to use different weapons when I run out of ammo, not to deal with different situations.

 

[Cameo Appearance]

Unfortunately, people expect mods to be retail quality these days. Releasing with anything that isn't in a near perfect state is usually disasterous for mods now.

It also doesn't help that the gap between the quality of full fledged, professionally developed games and what's possible with mod teams in their bedrooms in their spare time has steadily grown larger over time. I know graphics are superficial but when a mod looks a few years behind the game it's based upon, it's hard to catch people's attention.

 

[Krynn72]

concept artists are a luxury rather than a necessity.

I have no idea why I am in this thread. But, no matter the reason, this made me laugh.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I'm glad.