Ethics of downloading

[Subconscious]

I hear a lot of people saying not to download the souce code and not to download the beta, but in reality there is no moral or even practical reason not to download them.

Of course it was wrong for the person to steal the source code and distrubute it, but the damage has already been done and no matter how many people obstain from downloading the source or the "beta", it won't do a damn thing for Gabe or for Valve.

Just think about it for a second, to 99% of the population the souce code is worthless anyway and to the small percent that are programmers (like me) it could greatly help in learning some advanced graphics programming techniques that are virtually unavailable to the average programmer right now. Sure it sucks for Valve, but why should that prevent people from reaping the benifets? It's not like I'll somehow hurt Valve more by looking at the source and getting better at programming, so please shut up with this "out of respect for Gabe and his hard work" BS. I think it's far more respectful to let something good come out of all this, rather than let it be a complete loss for everyone. I've been independently working on graphics programming for a long time now, and sure there are tutorials and examples of code out there for using the latest directx and openGL, but the farthest they ever go is a rotating box with colors.

And about the "beta", first I'd like to clarify. I don't know what idiot decided to call the leaked development version of the game a "beta", but that is not what it is at all. It's just a compilation of unfinished levels and scripts that were being worked on at the time of the theft and doesn't really represent the game at all. So go ahead and download it if you feel like playing around in the engine for the hell of it, but it can hardly be called a "game" in its current form. I don't see any harm in people playing it as long as they realize it almost in no way represents the final product.

So all of you with your holier than thou attitude for not downloading can just shut up and keep your misguided sense of respect and honor to yourselves. Whether you download or not is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt Valve either way so just SHUT UP.

 

[inevident]

I agree

 

[Kincaid]

Most people just want something to talk about. Ie; starting this thread; ie; me posting in this thread.

I suppose the 'ethics' so to speak are encompassed in the 10 Commandments 'Thou Shall Not Steal'. Thus the conflict in peoples minds I suppose.

Frankly I don't completely understand it as this is broken an unimaginable amount of times in the run of a day in every walk of life.

So I'll just go back to saying, 'people just want something to talk about'. Makes them feel special. And not shortbus special. Or maybe.......

 

[ultraq]

The thing about "it doesn't hurt if I do it .. cuz other millions are gonna do it too" is, those millions only do it because they say the same thing!!
if from the beginning, everyone said "no .. i shouldn't do it" it wouldn't have happened, or atleast would happen on a much less scale.

 

[Agenthawk]

Originally posted by Subconscious
I hear a lot of people saying not to download the souce code and not to download the beta, but in reality there is no moral or even practical reason not to download them.

Of course it was wrong for the person to steal the source code and distrubute it, but the damage has already been done and no matter how many people obstain from downloading the source or the "beta", it won't do a damn thing for Gabe or for Valve.

Just think about it for a second, to 99% of the population the souce code is worthless anyway and to the small percent that are programmers (like me) it could greatly help in learning some advanced graphics programming techniques that are virtually unavailable to the average programmer right now. Sure it sucks for Valve, but why should that prevent people from reaping the benifets? It's not like I'll somehow hurt Valve more by looking at the source and getting better at programming, so please shut up with this "out of respect for Gabe and his hard work" BS. I think it's far more respectful to let something good come out of all this, rather than let it be a complete loss for everyone. I've been independently working on graphics programming for a long time now, and sure there are tutorials and examples of code out there for using the latest directx and openGL, but the farthest they ever go is a rotating box with colors.

And about the "beta", first I'd like to clarify. I don't know what idiot decided to call the leaked development version of the game a "beta", but that is not what it is at all. It's just a compilation of unfinished levels and scripts that were being worked on at the time of the theft and doesn't really represent the game at all. So go ahead and download it if you feel like playing around in the engine for the hell of it, but it can hardly be called a "game" in its current form. I don't see any harm in people playing it as long as they realize it almost in no way represents the final product.

So all of you with your holier than thou attitude for not downloading can just shut up and keep your misguided sense of respect and honor to yourselves. Whether you download or not is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt Valve either way so just SHUT UP.

Your a programmer right...would you have said these words if your work was stolen...Work that has taken you countless hours...I believe not.

 

[Dsn2K]

yep, pretty much sums up the stupidy of HL2 community. Valve are not dead, dying even and HL2 will make sh#t loads of money for an already very rich Developer. How many Dev's are there what can sit and make a game for 5 years with no releases what so ever.. ????

Downloading this "beta" will not hurt Valve in anyway. Downloading complete game wont hurt them, Piracy is nothing new.

I find it funny that the people here are saying its wrong but you no all of them are downloading it.

 

[ASnogarD]

Why do you feel the need to justify downloading ?

Download it and shut up already , some people feel its like jumping on the graves of unfortunate people if you benefit from Valves misfortune in this manner, others don't.

Personally I am not downloading it because I want to enjoy the thrill and awe from the full product..or at least a Valve endorsed beta version, not some bug ridden, jury-rigged mish mash of code.

I feel playing the leaked 'beta' is like getting a smashed up porche car that can still drive but looks terrible, got some power under engine but leaks oil and trans fluid like crazy. It may be a porche but its lacks the substance of a new porche or even a decent condition second hand, if you know what I mean.

 

[Kincaid]

Originally posted by Dsn2K

Downloading this "beta" will not hurt Valve in anyway. Downloading complete game wont hurt them, Piracy is nothing new.

That and considering that market research for gross profit of a game is done, obviously, without factoring in profit for pirated distribution.

 

[Parasite]

Originally posted by Subconscious
I hear a lot of people saying not to download the souce code and not to download the beta, but in reality there is no moral or even practical reason not to download them.

Of course it was wrong for the person to steal the source code and distrubute it, but the damage has already been done and no matter how many people obstain from downloading the source or the "beta", it won't do a damn thing for Gabe or for Valve.

Just think about it for a second, to 99% of the population the souce code is worthless anyway and to the small percent that are programmers (like me) it could greatly help in learning some advanced graphics programming techniques that are virtually unavailable to the average programmer right now. Sure it sucks for Valve, but why should that prevent people from reaping the benifets? It's not like I'll somehow hurt Valve more by looking at the source and getting better at programming, so please shut up with this "out of respect for Gabe and his hard work" BS. I think it's far more respectful to let something good come out of all this, rather than let it be a complete loss for everyone. I've been independently working on graphics programming for a long time now, and sure there are tutorials and examples of code out there for using the latest directx and openGL, but the farthest they ever go is a rotating box with colors.

And about the "beta", first I'd like to clarify. I don't know what idiot decided to call the leaked development version of the game a "beta", but that is not what it is at all. It's just a compilation of unfinished levels and scripts that were being worked on at the time of the theft and doesn't really represent the game at all. So go ahead and download it if you feel like playing around in the engine for the hell of it, but it can hardly be called a "game" in its current form. I don't see any harm in people playing it as long as they realize it almost in no way represents the final product.

So all of you with your holier than thou attitude for not downloading can just shut up and keep your misguided sense of respect and honor to yourselves. Whether you download or not is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt Valve either way so just SHUT UP.

You cant possibly be older than 14. If you were you would see the fault in your argument, and if you didnt see it, you would be mature enough to keep your mouth shut.

 

[DjBourgeoisie]

If you want to play a pos build of a game and have a bunch of suprises as to what is going to be in the game when it does come out, go ahead. If your life is so pathetic you have to have it and cant wait till its actually done, you need to get out more. Imo, I can wait, I dont want to see anything till the finished product, and I wont. I think I will be able to enjoy the game alot more than someone who played a leak build imo. How do I know? I had a beta of rogue spear years ago as a tester, and when the game came out I wasnt really all that excited since it wasnt really new.

 

[Saltpeter]

*covers his eyes with his left hand saying 'Oh please...'

If you download the beta you encourage the hackers behind it to do it again because apparently, their work has paid off. And if a hacker knows his work pays off, he'll do it again. Probably not to the same developers, but to another one developing a highly anticipated game.

Let me say now that this'll be my last post in this topic. I can see where this is leading.

 

[Luxley]

Let's see, if someone stole all the code and released it and everyone downloaded it then everyone has it and it's not a secret. All that time has been wasted and they've lost the competative edge.

On the other hand, if someone stole the code and released it and not a single person downloaded it then we'd have HL2 on the 30th and everyone would be happy.

Bit of a differece eh?

 

[nw909]

Ethics?

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by Subconscious
I hear a lot of people saying not to download the souce code and not to download the beta, but in reality there is no moral or even practical reason not to download them.

Moral relativism at its best.

Whether you download or not is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt Valve...

To paraphrase The Simpsons, "Stealing software is like punching someone in the dark. It's a victimless crime!" In other words, just because you can't see (or choose not to recognize) the harmful effects of your actions doesn't mean your actions are without consequence.

 

[Kincaid]

Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Parasite
You cant possibly be older than 14. If you were you would see the fault in your argument, and if you didnt see it, you would be mature enough to keep your mouth shut.

I agree with this logic. It's not considered good work ethic to profit from another companies product or way of making aforementioned product.

Thus why there are patents in realworld primary, secondary and tertiary production stages.

Ie; you make a program now, using what you've 'learned' from an 'open-sourced' HL2 engine and call it your own. You didn't develop the technique or the effect. But you profit from calling it your own. See the problem.

 

[Parasite]

Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Mountain Man
Moral relativism at its best.

There is nothing relative about morals.

 

[strangelove]

There's is one thing that those downloading deprive themselves of, but I have to tell a little story to explain it.

When I first heard about Half-Life, it was about a year and a half before it came out. It sounded kinda interesting, and I filed it away in the back of my mind as a game I should watch for.

When the game finally shipped, I had all but forgotten about it. Most of the press seemed to be about another new game called SiN. On the day that SiN was supposed to show up in stores, I drove down to CompUSA to look for it. No SiN. But there was this other new game called Half-Life. I remembered the preview I'd read, and decided to give the game a shot.

I was stunned. I had never experienced anything like it. I was up all night, and brought the game into work to show everyone there. It was a revelation.

It was also the very day Half-Life was placed on the store shelf.

Part of me regrets having seen the E3 videos for HL2 now. Part of me wishes valve would've not said anything at all, and just one day announced HL2 gold...on shelves in two weeks, and we'd all be like 'HL2? huh? where did that come from.' And we'd all be stunned, like I was that evening when I first rode the tram into Black Mesa.

Just the small amount of information already released has partially spoiled the full impact of the game for me (relative to the original), those that play around with the leaked crap will certainly not experience the full impact the game could have had on them.

Oh well.

Oh, and piracy does hurt, especially small developers in highly competitive markets. This turns into an ugly debate on the internet though, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[inevident]

Every game is pirated, so lets cancel out the effects that will have on the production of this game.

It doesn't matter how many people download it.. once the hacker releases something, its out.. and how many people download it doesn't change that, because it's still out.

Whether or not you're depriving yourself of something when you download the beta is entirely up to the person downloading it. Some people are eager to see whats contained in this early beta, and some people are not. It doesn't make one side right and the other wrong.

Although this is kind of common sense, that not everyone shares your opinion on something. However, its unlikely e3 testmaps will be included in the full game, and thats one of the reasons I'm happy to have it.

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Agenthawk
Your a programmer right...would you have said these words if your work was stolen...Work that has taken you countless hours...I believe not.

Yes I'm a programmer, and if it were my code that was stolen, of course it would suck but I would feel the same way and be happy if some kid starting out can learn something from it

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Parasite
There is nothing relative about morals.

Everything is relative about morals... just because something is wrong to one person doesn't mean its wrong to everyone else. Of course there are some things that nearly everyone can agree are wrong, but there is no absolute set of morals for everything, and anyone who says otherwise is more than likely a religious freak.

 

[Subconscious]

Originally posted by ultraq
The thing about "it doesn't hurt if I do it .. cuz other millions are gonna do it too" is, those millions only do it because they say the same thing!!
if from the beginning, everyone said "no .. i shouldn't do it" it wouldn't have happened, or atleast would happen on a much less scale.

It doesn't matter how many millions of people download it. What really hurt is the fact that it was stolen and the distribution among hackers who will use the code to possibly create hacks for the end product. They are the ones at fault and regardless of whether the masses download the source or beta, it would have happened anyway.

 

[Mountain Man]

Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Parasite
There is nothing relative about morals.

Exactly.

 

[Subconscious]

Originally posted by ASnogarD
Why do you feel the need to justify downloading ?

I don't feel the need to justify it, I already have downloaded it and I'm just tired of the idiots on this forum talking about how it's so bad and all gabe's hard work and whatnot.

 

[N2-VW]

Originally posted by Subconscious
I hear a lot of people saying not to download the souce code and not to download the beta, but in reality there is no moral or even practical reason not to download them.

Of course it was wrong for the person to steal the source code and distrubute it, but the damage has already been done and no matter how many people obstain from downloading the source or the "beta", it won't do a damn thing for Gabe or for Valve.

Just think about it for a second, to 99% of the population the souce code is worthless anyway and to the small percent that are programmers (like me) it could greatly help in learning some advanced graphics programming techniques that are virtually unavailable to the average programmer right now. Sure it sucks for Valve, but why should that prevent people from reaping the benifets? It's not like I'll somehow hurt Valve more by looking at the source and getting better at programming, so please shut up with this "out of respect for Gabe and his hard work" BS. I think it's far more respectful to let something good come out of all this, rather than let it be a complete loss for everyone. I've been independently working on graphics programming for a long time now, and sure there are tutorials and examples of code out there for using the latest directx and openGL, but the farthest they ever go is a rotating box with colors.

And about the "beta", first I'd like to clarify. I don't know what idiot decided to call the leaked development version of the game a "beta", but that is not what it is at all. It's just a compilation of unfinished levels and scripts that were being worked on at the time of the theft and doesn't really represent the game at all. So go ahead and download it if you feel like playing around in the engine for the hell of it, but it can hardly be called a "game" in its current form. I don't see any harm in people playing it as long as they realize it almost in no way represents the final product.

So all of you with your holier than thou attitude for not downloading can just shut up and keep your misguided sense of respect and honor to yourselves. Whether you download or not is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt Valve either way so just SHUT UP.

So with your logic this is how the world would run:
If someone robbed a bank and hid the money and you happened upon it you would keep it

You would also get involved in a riot with looting just becasue everyone else is doing it as in the LA Riots

:afro:

You are the misguided one my friend - its not a question of holier than thou it is the principle of the whole thing.

I for one have no use what so ever for the source code - would not what to do with it anywayz but I would not mind checking out a bit of a map - just out of curiosity IF someone I knew had it.:cheers: :bounce:

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Parasite
You cant possibly be older than 14. If you were you would see the fault in your argument, and if you didnt see it, you would be mature enough to keep your mouth shut.

If you see fault in my argument, then point it out rather than just making comments about my maturity. I believe you are the one lacking in maturity if the only way you can make a point is by insulting someone else.

 

[PoiSoNSpiDeR]

I AGREE, with main post

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by N2-VW
So with your logic this is how the world would run:
If someone robbed a bank and hid the money and you happened upon it you would keep it

You would also get involved in a riot with looting just becasue everyone else is doing it as in the LA Riots

:afro:

You are the misguided one my friend - its not a question of holier than thou it is the principle of the whole thing.

I for one have no use what so ever for the source code - would not what to do with it anywayz but I would not mind checking out a bit of a map - just out of curiosity IF someone I knew had it.:cheers: :bounce:

If you think about it more carefully, that is not what I said at all. If you happened about money that was hidden from a bank being robbed and you kept, then you would be indirectly hurting the bank by keeping something that is theirs. But by downloading and examining code that someone else "stole", no one loses anything. This can't be compared to looting because when you loot you are taking something away from someone else who then will not have it. I can look at the code all I want but it's not taking anything away from anyone, these are no physical objects we're talking about.

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Kincaid
I agree with this logic. It's not considered good work ethic to profit from another companies product or way of making aforementioned product.

Thus why there are patents in realworld primary, secondary and tertiary production stages.

Ie; you make a program now, using what you've 'learned' from an 'open-sourced' HL2 engine and call it your own. You didn't develop the technique or the effect. But you profit from calling it your own. See the problem.

Using techniques you've learned by examining the code is completely different than copying code or concepts from it almost verbatim. I said I have no ethical qualms with people downloading and examining it, but copying it and reproducing parts of it in your product for profit is different and is a completely different argument.

 

[Mountain Man]

Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
But by downloading and examining code that someone else "stole", no one loses anything.

It's tragic that you appear to actually believe this. Your actions are unjustifiable, and your unwillingness to recognize this fact is irrelevant.

Using techniques you've learned by examining the code is completely different than copying code or concepts from it almost verbatim. I said I have no ethical qualms with people downloading and examining it, but copying it and reproducing parts of it in your product for profit is different and is a completely different argument.

Not really.

 

[silent]

I'd say something here, but I'd probably be labled fascist, neo-nazi, racist, druggy and hop-scotch king... So I guess I won't!

 

[Tlaloc]

Im a programmer too and I could greatly benefit from just taking a glance at the code. However, like someone noted above, if this was my 5 years-worth of work and was supposed to be kept private I would be real bitter at the people downloading it let alone the guy that stole it.

However, the damage is done, like it has been said countless times. So it's not like you are hurting valve more or less by looking at it. Out of respect, you should not d/l this source code or even talk about it. However, if you chose to download it for educational purposes only, then nobody is going to stop you and at least you will learn something from it.

I guess as long as you dont use it directly to make profit for yourself and claim that you are just THAT great and THAT innovative, then you should feel pretty free of guilt...

but before anything, put yourself in the valve's developers position. At least try to feel what they are feeling right now.

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Mountain Man
It's tragic that you appear to actually believe this. Your actions are unjustifiable, and your unwillingness to recognize this fact is irrelevant.

Show me how me downloading and examining stolen code hurts anyone at all if you think it's so wrong. I'm not going to copy bits of code and put them into something I'm making, by the time I actually make a product, this will probably be truly open source, i'm only using it as a tool for learning the concepts. My actions don't need justification, if you think they are wrong, justify why.

 

[Asus]

Originally posted by Subconscious
I hear a lot of people saying not to download the souce code and not to download the beta, but in reality there is no moral or even practical reason not to download them.

Of course it was wrong for the person to steal the source code and distrubute it, but the damage has already been done and no matter how many people obstain from downloading the source or the "beta", it won't do a damn thing for Gabe or for Valve.

Just think about it for a second, to 99% of the population the souce code is worthless anyway and to the small percent that are programmers (like me) it could greatly help in learning some advanced graphics programming techniques that are virtually unavailable to the average programmer right now. Sure it sucks for Valve, but why should that prevent people from reaping the benifets? It's not like I'll somehow hurt Valve more by looking at the source and getting better at programming, so please shut up with this "out of respect for Gabe and his hard work" BS. I think it's far more respectful to let something good come out of all this, rather than let it be a complete loss for everyone. I've been independently working on graphics programming for a long time now, and sure there are tutorials and examples of code out there for using the latest directx and openGL, but the farthest they ever go is a rotating box with colors.

And about the "beta", first I'd like to clarify. I don't know what idiot decided to call the leaked development version of the game a "beta", but that is not what it is at all. It's just a compilation of unfinished levels and scripts that were being worked on at the time of the theft and doesn't really represent the game at all. So go ahead and download it if you feel like playing around in the engine for the hell of it, but it can hardly be called a "game" in its current form. I don't see any harm in people playing it as long as they realize it almost in no way represents the final product.

So all of you with your holier than thou attitude for not downloading can just shut up and keep your misguided sense of respect and honor to yourselves. Whether you download or not is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt Valve either way so just SHUT UP.

Nice try for an excuse...
Are there effects to valve and others that YOU are downloading it? no
But because a great many are.
Who do you wish to support?
Hackers/Community
It really is that simple.
You shouldn't look at justifying an act by seeing if someone got hurt. If you let yourself do a wrong/illegal act, that is something in your mind that you chose to do. That is something that says "yes, I am willing to steal".
Also your supporting hackers and the ones who originally did this. With that said, don't put yourself at the hackers level by downloading and giving in to your wants but rather dont do illegal things.
Obviously this is just text on your screen and (this/others posts) doesnt change your mind because its faceless.

Its sorta funny how all these people who joined in Oct seem to only complain, flame valve and these children who have no morals seem to find the most BS things to justify their actions.
Oh wait, some hackers joined in Oct...guess they are with them.

 

[Mountain Man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
My actions don't need justification...

And yet you are going to great lengths to justify them. Curious.

Really, the whole "It doesn't hurt Valve" argument is disingeneous and self-serving. That's like saying it's O.K. to steal a few hundreds bucks from Bill Gates because it can be resonably argued that it won't hurt him. Point being, the extent of perceived damage is irrelevant because it is still morally and ethically wrong to steal.

Not to mention, there are countless code examples you could learn from that are both legal and ethical to obtain. Look into Linux and other open source projects for more code than you could read in your lifetime. You don't need to resort to stolen code for your purposes.

 

[Kincaid]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Mountain Man

Using techniques you've learned by examining the code is completely different than copying code or concepts from it almost verbatim. I said I have no ethical qualms with people downloading and examining it, but copying it and reproducing parts of it in your product for profit is different and is a completely different argument.

Not really.

Yeah. Learning from something that was not intended for the public to be able to learn from is still what I was talking about. It's allowable when you are given the final public techniques.

 

[iamironsam]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
Show me how me downloading and examining stolen code hurts anyone at all if you think it's so wrong. I'm not going to copy bits of code and put them into something I'm making, by the time I actually make a product, this will probably be truly open source, i'm only using it as a tool for learning the concepts. My actions don't need justification, if you think they are wrong, justify why.

That's why open-source programming only makes sense in an academic environment. Unfortunetly, in a free-market society, where survival depends on patents and the protection of intellectual property, it doesn't work. Your intentions may be sincere, but I assure you other peoples aren't.

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Mountain Man
And yet you are going to great lengths to justify them. Curious.

Really, the whole "It doesn't hurt Valve" argument is disingeneous and self-serving. That's like saying it's O.K. to steal a few hundreds bucks from Bill Gates because it can be resonably argued that it won't hurt him. Point being, the extent of perceived damage is irrelevant because it is still morally and ethically wrong to steal.

Not to mention, there are countless code examples you could learn from that are both legal and ethical to obtain. Look into Linux and other open source projects for more code than you could read in your lifetime. You don't need to resort to stolen code for your purposes.

First of all, no, this is not like stealing a few hundred bucks from bill gates. No matter how little it is, you're still taking something from him that he now does not have. I am not stealing anything by downloading the source code, it doesn't just hurt them a very small amount, it hurts them not AT ALL. There is nothing that they had before I downloaded the code that they don't still have now.

Sure there are countless open source examples, but most of them are junk and as you just said it's more code than I could read in my lifetime. So why read through countless projects of crap when I have a perfect example right here?

Also, I'm not going to great lengths to justify this for myself, I'm telling other people how it is cause I'm sick of reading the crap people are saying here

 

[Asus]

Your still stealing.
Stealing is taking (the property of another) without right or permission.
Has nothing to do with if they still have it or not but how you got it and under what condition. It wasnt given...it still belongs to them.
If someone had important information on paper and someone made a photocopy...that is stealing. Now people are giving (providing upload links to) "photocopied" property/information that belongs to Valve.
And you still download it because you are probably not going to be given a court date yet the hackers will. You think thats "OK"?

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Asus
Nice try for an excuse...
Are there effects to valve and others that YOU are downloading it? no
But because a great many are.
Who do you wish to support?
Hackers/Community
It really is that simple.
You shouldn't look at justifying an act by seeing if someone got hurt. If you let yourself do a wrong/illegal act, that is something in your mind that you chose to do. That is something that says "yes, I am willing to steal".
Also your supporting hackers and the ones who originally did this. With that said, don't put yourself at the hackers level by downloading and giving in to your wants but rather dont do illegal things.
Obviously this is just text on your screen and (this/others posts) doesnt change your mind because its faceless.

Its sorta funny how all these people who joined in Oct seem to only complain, flame valve and these children who have no morals seem to find the most BS things to justify their actions.
Oh wait, some hackers joined in Oct...guess they are with them.

I'm not showing support for hackers or the community by downloading it, I'm simply taking advantage of the resources available. Downloading is not stealing, in order to steal something you must take it, in order to take it, it has to no longer be available to its original owner. All you're saying is that it's wrong/illegal, your only reason or justification is that by downloading it, you're somehow "supporting" the hackers but you don't say how. How is it supporting the hackers? I don't condone what they did, nor would I want similar things to happen to other companies, but what happened has already happened and nothing is going to change it. You are the one with BS justification.

 

[iamironsam]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
First of all, no, this is not like stealing a few hundred bucks from bill gates. No matter how little it is, you're still taking something from him that he now does not have. I am not stealing anything by downloading the source code, it doesn't just hurt them a very small amount, it hurts them not AT ALL. There is nothing that they had before I downloaded the code that they don't still have now.

Sure there are countless open source examples, but most of them are junk and as you just said it's more code than I could read in my lifetime. So why read through countless projects of crap when I have a perfect example right here?

Also, I'm not going to great lengths to justify this for myself, I'm telling other people how it is cause I'm sick of reading the crap people are saying here

Listen, what gives Valve their advantage over other game developers? Their superior coding. Now that everyone who wants it has a copy of their code has it, what are they left with?