Ethics of downloading

[Subconscious]

Originally posted by Asus
Your still stealing.
Stealing is taking (the property of another) without right or permission.
Has nothing to do with if they still have it or not but how you got it and under what condition. It wasnt given...it still belongs to them.
If someone had important information on paper and someone made a photocopy...that is stealing. Now people are giving (providing upload links to) "photocopied" property/information that belongs to Valve.
And you still download it because you are probably not going to be given a court date yet the hackers will. You think thats "OK"?

OK, using your example and building upon it, if someone had important information on a paper and then someone made a photocopy then went home and made a million photocopies and was dropping them out of a plane over the city, would it be "stealing" if someone were to pick up a peice of paper, look at it, and think "hmmm... that's interesting"? Well that is far more similar to what is going on here, if the information were so important they should have kept it secret in the first place.

 

[iamironsam]

Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
I'm not showing support for hackers or the community by downloading it, I'm simply taking advantage of the resources available. Downloading is not stealing, in order to steal something you must take it, in order to take it, it has to no longer be available to its original owner. All you're saying is that it's wrong/illegal, your only reason or justification is that by downloading it, you're somehow "supporting" the hackers but you don't say how. How is it supporting the hackers? I don't condone what they did, nor would I want similar things to happen to other companies, but what happened has already happened and nothing is going to change it. You are the one with BS justification.

Uh, if you buy/take a piece of property you know to be stolen from the person who stole it, that is considered stealing. That isn't an argument on ethics, it's the law. Why do you think that little 14 year old girl is being sued for having pirated music on her computer?

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by iamironsam
Listen, what gives Valve their advantage over other game developers? Their superior coding. Now that everyone who wants it has a copy of their code has it, what are they left with?

What are they left with? they're left with the years of work they put into the game to begin with that I've been hearing about over and over from people in the forums. A game is more than just the concepts that go into programming it, even if you know the concepts it would take years to actually develop a game. Just because those concepts are up for grabs now doesn't mean valve has nothing.

 

[iamironsam]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
What are they left with? they're left with the years of work they put into the game to begin with that I've been hearing about over and over from people in the forums. A game is more than just the concepts that go into programming it, even if you know the concepts it would take years to actually develop a game. Just because those concepts are up for grabs now doesn't mean valve has nothing.

It does mean they are left with considerably less than they started off with before this mess. I guess the idea of free market competition escapes you.

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by iamironsam
Uh, if you buy/take a piece of property you know to be stolen from the person who stole it, that is considered stealing. That isn't an argument on ethics, it's the law. Why do you think that little 14 year old girl is being sued for having pirated music on her computer?

No, this is an argument in ethics, why do you think millions of people in america still download music. Why do you think so many people offered to pay the fine for that 14 year old girl? Why do you think people are still arguing about the intellectual property laws? Just because the law says so doesn't make it the absolute code of ethics... did you know that it's illegal in most states to have oral sex, does that mean it's also unethical? did you know that in some states its even illegal to kiss longer than 20 seconds? Do you know how many idiotic laws are out there? I mean sure the law is a good source or morals, but you have to use your own judgement sometimes too and think about things for yourself?

 

[Mountain Man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
First of all, no, this is not like stealing a few hundred bucks from bill gates.

You chose to argue the example rather than the point. Why am I not surprised? Since the point of my analogy sailed right over your head despite my making it plainly clear, allow me to repeat myself: The extent of perceived damage is irrelevant because it is still morally and ethically wrong to steal.

Sure there are countless open source examples, but most of them are junk...

As if. You can't build a solid, effecient, secure, and robust operating system on junk code. Not to mention even "junk" code has educational value.

Anyway, you're just pulling excuses out of your ass to justify obtaining stolen code. "I need to steal Valve's code because, um, because, well, uh...open source code is junk! Yeah, that's it." Give me a break.

Also, I'm not going to great lengths to justify this for myself, I'm telling other people how it is cause I'm sick of reading the crap people are saying here

So are you trying to convince yourself or others that what you did isn't wrong? Seriously, if your conscience wasn't bothering you, you'd feel no need to try and openly defend your actions. Like my friend once said, "If you have to justify something you probably shouldn't have done it in the first place."

 

[iamironsam]

Look, downloading pirated software and code is wrong and illegal, period. Don't try and justify it.

I'm no saint either, I download bootleg games that I'm unsure I will like (ie Halo PC), but I know it's wrong and I do it anyway. I accept it, you should too and stop trying to prove this stupid point.

 

[Parasite]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
Everything is relative about morals... just because something is wrong to one person doesn't mean its wrong to everyone else. Of course there are some things that nearly everyone can agree are wrong, but there is no absolute set of morals for everything, and anyone who says otherwise is more than likely a religious freak.

I used to make this same argument. I used to argue that each society has its own set of morals, and so on. Right and wrong are relative. Values are relative, because they are individual choices. Morals are not, they are the fabric that holds us together as a society. Morals are as simple as Dont harm, Dont kill, Dont steal... To say that a person who murders someone in cold blood has a different opinion is rediculous, they are in fact commiting an immoral act. You have morals...they are absolute, and you know the difference between right and wrong...so why make excuses for yourself or others who go against what you know is right and wrong. Personal preference? Idividuality? Why does that matter in the case of murder (for instance) Because a killer was raised to beleive murder is OK. Would you not agree that person was misled? Was raised wrong? Well he was.

Agnostic by the way.

Anyway, I dont think this situation is about morals...this is a case of values, and personal integrity. Neither of wich you seem to retain.

Also, I apologize for insulting you. But you have a very corrupt mind.
You are practicing situational values. This is when a persons values suddenly change when they no longer benifit them in the current situation. Situational values are self defeating as is your entire argument. Its obvious by the fact that you feel the need to justify your actions to others that guilt is mounting, and your condescending tone only drives that fact home. You dont have any intention of creating a greater good from any of this...you just want something for nothing, and you want us to tell you its OK.

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by iamironsam
It does mean they are left with considerably less than they started off with before this mess. I guess the idea of free market competition escapes you.

They're not left with less anything, the concepts they had in coding is only a fraction of the time they put into this game. They still have all that they had before this mess. No other legitimate company can use bits of code from their game without being caught, nor could they hire people to examime the code and steal concepts from it and even if they did manage to, by the time they sift through the code, analyze what's going on, learn the concepts and incorporate it back into their own game, they could have just thought of it themselves.

 

[N2-VW]

Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
If you think about it more carefully, that is not what I said at all. If you happened about money that was hidden from a bank being robbed and you kept, then you would be indirectly hurting the bank by keeping something that is theirs. But by downloading and examining code that someone else "stole", no one loses anything. This can't be compared to looting because when you loot you are taking something away from someone else who then will not have it. I can look at the code all I want but it's not taking anything away from anyone, these are no physical objects we're talking about.

Actually you could argue that the money is insured and does not affect the bank....
But in the end you, as you quoted, want to look at stolen work - you want to learn from it but do not feel you need to pay for the oportunity to look at it. Thats kinda like going to college for free in a sense. But that is how our society is they/we want something for nothing. We are there to scavange on someone elses misfortune. I am sure the people that wrote the source don't want people to see it for "free downloading".
In the end it was/is stolen work.
You also stated that you could look at the code all you want adn that it does not take anything away from anyone - that is BS - where did it come from to begin with - it was stolen hence taken away. This could also apply to the music industry - once a song is uploaded to the internet and others download only to listen to it - you are still not paying the artist who made it or supporting them - unless you go buy the cd:cheese:
Last point "there are no physical objects we're talking about." ermm the source code is a physical thing - its code yes but it is an object still by definition

 

[Finger]

But by downloading and examining code that someone else "stole", no one loses anything.

Wrong. The creators of that code lose the chance to present it to you in the manor THEY wanted to. They lose control of THEIR product, and the impression it makes on the fans. It's like someone stealing the secrets to a Magicians new act, and offering it to anybody who wants it. Yeah, the trick is still impressive....but someone robbed it of the 'magic'.

 

[Mountain Man]

And for the record, the act of stealing does not necessarily depend upon physically depriving somebody of something. The unauthorized transfer of source code is theft in every sense of the word. Trying to narrowly define the word "steal" so as not to apply to computer crimes is absurd.

 

[Subconscious]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Mountain Man
You chose to argue the example rather than the point. Why am I not surprised? Since the point of my analogy sailed right over your head despite my making it plainly clear, allow me to repeat myself: The extent of perceived damage is irrelevant because it is still morally and ethically wrong to steal.

I argued your example rather than your point because the example you used didn't fit the situation and your point was based on the example. My point is that it is not stealing to begin with and there is no damage, perceived or otherwise.

Originally posted by Mountain Man

Anyway, you're just pulling excuses out of your ass to justify obtaining stolen code. "I need to steal Valve's code because, um, because, well, uh...open source code is junk! Yeah, that's it." Give me a break.

I'm not just pulling excuses out of my ass, I'm not saying that all open source is junk, but when it comes to 3d technology and interfaces, the vast majority of open source material is outdated junk and since a perfect example of the latest 3d incorporated software is available, I will use it. My conscience isn't bothering me, it's just the idiots on here that bother me.

 

[Gunner]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/gijoe-computer.mov

That's all I have to say!

 

[iamironsam]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
They're not left with less anything, the concepts they had in coding is only a fraction of the time they put into this game. They still have all that they had before this mess. No other legitimate company can use bits of code from their game without being caught, nor could they hire people to examime the code and steal concepts from it and even if they did manage to, by the time they sift through the code, analyze what's going on, learn the concepts and incorporate it back into their own game, they could have just thought of it themselves.

If you honestly feel that no one will profit from Valves misfortune, than consider yourself in the clear ethically. I can't argue with such an obvious believer in open-source software.

Downloading pirated software and code is wrong and illegal, period. Don't try and justify it.

I'm no saint either, I download bootleg games that I'm unsure I will like (ie Halo PC), but I know it's wrong and I do it anyway. I accept it, you should too and stop trying to prove this stupid point.

 

[Mountain Man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethics of downloading

Originally posted by Subconscious
I argued your example rather than your point because the example you used didn't fit the situation and your point was based on the example.

No, you argued the example because you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to arguing against the point. You're trying to pick your battles but are shooting yourself in the foot instead.

My point is that it is not stealing to begin with and there is no damage, perceived or otherwise.

Try telling that to Valve. I'm pretty sure they'd be inclined to disagree that the theft of their source code and its continued distrubution by wankers like you isn't harming them. Damge is being done whether you choose to accept it or not.

"But I'm not distributing it!" I can hear you cry. By downloading the software, you are openly supporting those who are distributing it, making you just as guilty as they.

The point is, and thanks for being so thick-headed that I have to make it again, moral conduct is not defined by the presence or lack of perceived consequences. Using your logic, you can justify pretty much any wrong action (such as my Bill Gates example. Seriously, you could probably steal two grand from the guy and he wouldn't even know it's missing).

I'm not saying that all open source is junk, but when it comes to 3d technology and interfaces, the vast majority of open source material is outdated junk and since a perfect example of the latest 3d incorporated software is available, I will use it.

Despite the fact that obtaining that source code is immoral and unethical.

But since you yourself admitted that good open source software that you could learn from does exist (even if you might have to dig for it), it pretty much removes the only flimsy justification you had for stealing Valve's code in the first place. Don't you just hate it when your own argument comes around and bites you in the ass?

My conscience isn't bothering me...

You just keep telling yourself that. Who knows, you might actually start to believe it.

 

[silent]

Steal equals taking without asking... That's all it means.

 

[Asus]

The word "taking" in the definition as "taking with out the right or permission" can be replaced with having, or possessing.
Like I said before, it has nothing to do with if they still have it or not but everything to do with under what circumstance/understanding it was taken.

You may beable to justify it to yourself that Stealing is OK because it "doesnt hurt anyone in your opinion" but you cannot justify it as not stealing because no one was hurt or they still have it.
Your logic is flawed.

 

[nsxownzme]

Who cares if someone downloads some shit/? Worry about yourself. btw the beta owns.

 

[silent]

Originally posted by Asus
The word "taking" in the definition as "taking with out the right or permission" can be replaced with having, or possessing.
Like I said before, it has nothing to do with if they still have it or not but everything to do with under what circumstance/understanding it was taken.

You may beable to justify it to yourself that Stealing is OK because it "doesnt hurt anyone in your opinion" but you cannot justify it as not stealing because no one was hurt or they still have it.
Your logic is flawed.

What do you mean nobody was hurt? 6 companies can sue Valve, more work need to be done, fans have to wait for the release... No good sire, despite which side you agree with you are flawed.

 

[Asus]

lol i said in his opinion. notice quotes. those are not my words.

 

[Leonard]

Hey, what if another country stole the plans for the atomic bomb from the US while they were developing it, and learned from them. Is that morally right?

Stealing the code is no different.

The truth is that it did happen, and it was a big problemo during the cold war.

 

[Steven Q Urkle]

I think most people here just say what they think the general community wants to hear so people will like them.

 

[Steven Seagal]

The problem is definitely enforcement. There are so many people doing it and getting away with it that the law almost seems imaginary.

That being said, who the heck wants to try an unfinished game? One of the best things about Half-Life 1 was not knowing what was going to happen next...

 

[kanzler]

Originally posted by Leonard
Hey, what if another country stole the plans for the atomic bomb from the US while they were developing it..................Stealing the code is no different.

You're comparing an atomic bomb with a piece of SHITTY software? It's just a game, it won't change the world and Valve will get over it.

If people want to look at the code, LET THEM. Maybe one day they will make a great game and something good can come out of all this.

 

[ImJacksAmygdala]

I actually agree with this guy although I see more harm with the source being out in the wild. I like the fact that those trade secrets of programming are out in the wild and the knowledge is free, but I don't like the fact that for this game atleast the source can be abused.

A free source might actually be good for the consumer in the long run, but most certainly will be bad for Valve and HL2 as well as Steam and Havoc.

I don't condone how it was freed in anyway however, and the SON OF A BITCH MUST PAY!

 

[Dhoco X]

That's what i said on the "The real deal with HL2 Source".

Don't download !

 

[gorman]

Originally posted by Subconscious
to the small percent that are programmers (like me) it could greatly help in learning some advanced graphics programming techniques that are virtually unavailable to the average programmer right now. Sure it sucks for Valve, but why should that prevent people from reaping the benifets?

They are virtually unavailable to you because you haven't busted your ass for five years in coming up with them. :|

 

[qckbeam]

Listen, what gives Valve their advantage over other game developers? Their superior coding. Now that everyone who wants it has a copy of their code has it, what are they left with?

Actually the advantage Valve has over other companys is their creativity, not their code. The beauty of Half-Life was not in it's graphics it was in it's gameplay, the same goes for HL2.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Subconscious So all of you with your holier than thou attitude for not downloading can just shut up and keep your misguided sense of respect and honor to yourselves. Whether you download or not is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt Valve either way so just SHUT UP. [/B]

Yes, please shut up.

 

[genocide604]

i think well said.

 

[tommie]

Delete this shit. Enough source/beta threads.

 

[Kincaid]

Originally posted by tommie
Delete this shit. Enough source/beta threads.

DingDing. tommie the HeadCrab has a point. Don't whack him with the crowbar yet.

 

[cpu killer]

Originally posted by ASnogarD
Why do you feel the need to justify downloading ?

Download it and shut up already , some people feel its like jumping on the graves of unfortunate people if you benefit from Valves misfortune in this manner, others don't.

Personally I am not downloading it because I want to enjoy the thrill and awe from the full product..or at least a Valve endorsed beta version, not some bug ridden, jury-rigged mish mash of code.

I feel playing the leaked 'beta' is like getting a smashed up porche car that can still drive but looks terrible, got some power under engine but leaks oil and trans fluid like crazy. It may be a porche but its lacks the substance of a new porche or even a decent condition second hand, if you know what I mean.

...that would be "porsche"...
Edit: I think a "porch" would be those fancy concrete structures some houses have in front of em..anyways, just pointing it out..

 

[manny_c44]

Frankly what's available isn't really worth the download. It does have some tantalizing moments, but most of it is harsh and far from complete...if one wasn't careful they could easily by subjected to plot and gameplay spoilers.

But really I don't see how DLing the beta is that bad, its not anywhere close to complete and absolutely no one would not want to buy the game after playing it (VALVe's weapon selection and gameplay is top-notch).

Downloading full, complete games is a different story altogether.

 

[theotherguy]

i wont do it because its illegal

 

[uncle-argyle]

if we stand in silence for just a moment we can still hear gabe screaming.

And after what I have seen today If I was gabe newell would wire my balls to a light socket and plug it in becuase this anon has everything valve had! And for anyones information There are poeple working on the beta updates for all are favorite games! Mind you there all from the leaked source But still gabe must be shitting bullets.

And BTW I was mapping with worldcraft for HL2 and it was awesome.

 

[theotherguy]

i wont do it because its illegal

 

[wako]

I agree

 

[Chode]

Hmm, now THIS is a good thread. I became a member just to post here. Nothing beats a good philosophical debate, the random insults notwithstanding.

Though I take the view that there can come some good from what was leaked. For one, they convinced me to buy the game when they came out.

It's a work in progress, I can understand this. I like seeing different stages of development as it allows me to better know how much work has been put into a game. It's like all of those "Making of" specials that come with movies nowadays.

Yes, the fact that the source and an executable version was leaked is bad. But the good part of this is that Valve will tighten their security, they can learn a valuable lesson from this.

And I as well as others can have a sneak preview of what will indeed be the next stage of the games industry.

This is not self-justification, for I feel no guilt at all for downloading and viewing what I have downloaded. This is just my two cents.