Evidence that America was founded as a secular nation?

[Krynn72]

Does anyone know off-hand of evidence that America was intended to be Secular and not a christian nation? I'm trying to gather all the proof I can that we weren't founded as a Christian nation, after having been thrown for a loop in a facebook argument about it (who'd have guessed?). Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli isn't the end all proof I thought it was.

 

[Raziaar]

Just give us the facebook argument page. We'll blast in there and settle the score.

 

[Escaep]

Well for one you could look at the Constitution and the first amendment where it says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

.

more here: http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

 

[Vegeta897]

What's that Krynn? [strike]Timmy's fallen in the well?[/strike] A religion argument on facebook?
Let's go guys!

 

[unozero]

most of our founding fathers were deists and not Christian.

 

[Raziaar]

What's that Krynn? [strike]Timmy's fallen in the well?[/strike] A religion argument on facebook?
Let's go guys!

You know one of these days he's going to snap, and I'm going to be the only one left standing.

 

[Escaep]

You know one of these days he's going to snap, and I'm going to be the only one left standing.

That and animal control!

 

[The Monkey]

Why is it important? **** the past, that shouldn't affect how we ought to form today's society. I will never understand Americans and their obsessive devotion to their constitution.

 

[Krynn72]

Just give us the facebook argument page. We'll blast in there and settle the score.

What's that Krynn? [strike]Timmy's fallen in the well?[/strike] A religion argument on facebook?
Let's go guys!

Nah, I'd feel bad. Hes such an easy mark. Hes like a non-famous Glenn Beck.

Also his facebook page is private.

This is his response to someone else.

With the exception of the thing about the validity of the Treaty of Tripoli article, he hasn't said anything really intelligent. And the Treaty of Tripoli thing was just him quoting wikipedia.

 

[Vegeta897]

Why is it important? **** the past, that shouldn't affect how we ought to form today's society. I will never understand Americans and their obsessive devotion to their constitution.

Well that same logic could be used to fight against freedom of speech and expression...

One thing America has right.. Compared to countries like Australia, UK, NZ...

Dot dot dot...

 

[No Limit]

Nah, I'd feel bad. Hes such an easy mark. Hes like a non-famous Glenn Beck.

Also his facebook page is private.

This is his response to someone else.

With the exception of the thing about the validity of the Treaty of Tripoli article, he hasn't said anything really intelligent. And the Treaty of Tripoli thing was just him quoting wikipedia.

Jesus, where to start. When a conservative brings up poll numbers about something I always like to bring up the fact that upwards of 70% of americans wanted a public option.

As far as the founding fathers go on top of everything mentioned here already you can point them to Thomas Paine's Age of Reason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason

On top of all the other records of founding fathers blasting the idea of organized religion.

Finally, is this guy a christian? Because if he is obviously he is throwing stones in a glass house.

 

[Mr. Djees]

With the exception of the thing about the validity of the Treaty of Tripoli article, he hasn't said anything really intelligent. And the Treaty of Tripoli thing was just him quoting wikipedia.

Article 11 was in the version of the treaty that Congress ratified, this is also probably the same translation that was presented to President Adams and the Senate, unless they all understood arabic.

 

[Krynn72]

Article 11 was in the version of the treaty that Congress ratified, this is also probably the same translation that was presented to President Adams and the Senate, unless they all understood arabic.

It was, but there is some evidence that they ratified it under pressure (due to the pirate attacks on American ships) and couldnt afford the time it would take to verify the translation and re-introduce the treaty into the process. They re-negotiated the treaty only six years later, and that time the line was excluded.

 

[Mogi67]

most of our founding fathers were deists and not Christian.

thischar

 

[<RJMC>]

whent he usa was founded,one of the big parts of was it was the suposed separation of church and state? that even karl marx liked?

 

[Xevrex]

I always get confused on what people mean when they argue that people came to America for religious freedom/founded the nation on religious freedom. The two aren't interchangeable, since the Puritans and Separatists didn't come for universal religious tolerance, but for tolerance of their own denomination. There was even more intolerance than in England. It doesn't make any sense to me how you could interpret that as tolerance.

 

[lord_raken]

We are a Secular nation (we don't put a church in charge) that protects the freedom of religion. That is how the founding fathers wanted it. Any idiot can see that by reading the constitution.

But many of the men who helped to create the United States were very devout in their faith. Even Thomas Jefferson (king of the "Deists") was a religious man.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator." Written in the front of Jefferson's personal Bible.

Like it or not this nation was founded by religious men whose faith supported and inspired them to strive for freedom. Yet, they also knew of the dangers of organized religion and so put protections in place to guard against abuse. They had issues with organized religion... not personal faith.

Why is it so important for you to think that this nation was founded by people who never bent a knee in prayer to Jesus? They did everything they could so you agnostics and atheists have the freedom to not-believe just as christians and other religious people have the freedom to believe.... what more could you want?

p.s. and why do you have such and issue with the constitution? It constrains the founding principles of our nation.... freedom of speech, of religions... freedom to a fair trial, protection of property rights. exe.

 

[Ennui]

Why is it important? **** the past, that shouldn't affect how we ought to form today's society. I will never understand Americans and their obsessive devotion to their constitution.

u hate freedom?

u hate LIBERTY?

u hate.... AMERICA??

 

[Ridge]

u hate freedom?

u hate LIBERTY?

u hate.... AMERICA??

Ever notice how the ones that say the Constitution is pointless and meaningless are the ones that have never lived under it?

 

[Krynn72]

Ever notice how the ones that say the Constitution is pointless and meaningless are the ones that have never lived under it?

Ever notice how the ones that say the Constitution is sacrosanct and meaningful are the ones that have lived their whole lives under it?

 

[Eejit]

Also sworn allegiance to it every day at school. Indoctrination, eh?

 

[Dr.Demento]

Try looking up Free Masons. They played a huge role in the the founding of the nation. I watched a documentary the other night that mentioned the founding forefathers specifically tailoring every word of the constitution to make it seem that the new nation wasn't religion biased. For example, they changed phrases like, "the words in this 'sacred' document herin" and used a word other than 'sacred' so it didn't seem so religious.

 

[Ridge]

Also sworn allegiance to it every day at school. Indoctrination, eh?

That's the flag, but nice try.

 

[Maestro]

I just thought I'd point out that the Constitution is the codification of our system of government. So yeah...it's kind of important. That's how we guarantee things like freedom of speech and reasonable search and seizure. I could, however, name a number of laws which violate both.

 

[Danimal]

Well, George Washington was a Freemason.

To become a Freemason you must have faith in a religion that is based around a Creator God.

In retrospect, that's got nothing to do with the actual nation's founding, though.

 

[Krynn72]

Also sworn allegiance to it every day at school. Indoctrination, eh?

Not everywhere.

That's the flag, but nice try.

Flags cannot hold allegiances idiot. You and I both know pledging allegiance to the symbol of our country means you're pledging allegiance to the country itself.

 

[The Monkey]

I just thought I'd point out that the Constitution is the codification of our system of government. So yeah...it's kind of important. That's how we guarantee things like freedom of speech and reasonable search and seizure. I could, however, name a number of laws which violate both.

I'm not saying constitutions don't fulfil a purpose, but they should be used as protection against impulsive populism, and should be subject of change. They need to be reformed to reflect the values of today.

 

[Danimal]

How so, specifically?

 

[The Monkey]

How so, specifically?

For one thing, the American constitution doesn't guarantee positive freedoms (the right to something, rather than just the freedom from something), nor is its civil rights protection sufficient, as evident in that legislation such as the Patriot Act could be passed.

 

[No Limit]

For one thing, the American constitution doesn't guarantee positive freedoms (the right to something, rather than just the freedom from something), nor is its civil rights protection sufficient, as evident in that legislation such as the Patriot Act could be passed.

Sure the constitution gurantees freedom to something, it's in the 5th amendment. Property rights were used to justify owning slaves in the early days. It also protects the freedom to privacy, the freedom to free speech, etc, etc.

I do agree the constitution isn't perfect but alot of the problems we have is not the fault of the constitution, it's the fault of our court system. When the courts rule corporations are people, that they don't want to look at DADT, as well as a host of other issues they are the biggest problem. And in the end our democracy is a reflection of our people, and our people for the most part are way too easily distracted.

 

[CptStern]

With the exception of the thing about the validity of the Treaty of Tripoli article, he hasn't said anything really intelligent. And the Treaty of Tripoli thing was just him quoting wikipedia.

Krynn you cant reason with someone like that. he's just spewing a collection of talking points that he's memorized. the only way to counter him is to destroy his arguments. ie:

"it's funny how you support the right to practice religion freely, 1st Amendment. What about the second amendment"


your response: "what does that have to do with the building of a cultural center a few blocks away from ground zero. Can you explain how the 2nd amendment is relevant to the topic at hand? are you familiar with strawmen?

etc. but my advice is dotn bother. you cant reason with stupid

 

[lord_raken]

Sure the constitution gurantees freedom to something, it's in the 5th amendment. Property rights were used to justify owning slaves in the early days. It also protects the freedom to privacy, the freedom to free speech, etc, etc.

I do agree the constitution isn't perfect but alot of the problems we have is not the fault of the constitution, it's the fault of our court system. When the courts rule corporations are people, that they don't want to look at DADT, as well as a host of other issues they are the biggest problem. And in the end our democracy is a reflection of our people, and our people for the most part are way too easily distracted.

Well said.We the people have not been vigilant in reigning in our government and they have gotten somewhat out of control. If the people were better educated (liberal arts... not the job training we have now) we would be better prepared to spot and prevent abuse of the constitution.

 

[AtomicSpark]

/me scrolls to the bottom of the thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22

I contributed.

/me leaves

 

[Eejit]

Hehe I can't remember the last time I saw someone say we need more people educated in liberal arts.

 

[No Limit]

ahaha. Yes, if only more of us were educated in liberal arts.