Expenses

[Sulkdodds]

Background reading for the unattentive (the unbritish). Check out the 'key stories' at the top left for more info.

What does /hl2net/ think about this issue? Should it be an issue at all? Are MPs' expenses justified, and if so under what conditions? What about the political responses? Are Gordon Brown's proposals for an independent audit genuinely helpful, or useless wagon-jumping? Is there a problem, and if so what is it, and what's the answer?

[TLDR]

For my own part, I think we have to realise that most MPs do need to have two houses because they have to attend to two constituencies. Their job involves travelling regularly between a locality and the capital city. And it's only fair that they be able to claim expenses on travel and housing, because otherwise people of the working classes or lower middle classes just wouldn't be able to afford the job. It would constitute a de facto property qualification for membership of the Commons - rather like the good old days of the 19th century.

I suppose the issue is that they're abusing their expenses, and on a public penny. Of course, one solution would be to just give every MP a council house in impoverished parts of London. It would be healthy for them always to be in contact with the parts of society that are most deprived. And 646 people won't strain the system much.

The problem for me is that the issue of expenses seems so unimportant compared to stuff happening in this country. Firstly you have the problem of deciding exactly where to draw the line between justified and unjustified expenses. Is it okay for an MP to buy a second house on expenses but not okay for him to buy a TV for that house? And if he does, what's the cost of a television - or even the fraudulent 16,000 quid that Elliot Morley claimed - compared to the millions of pounds that disappear into holes in Private Finance Initiative schemes? That money, supposedly for healthcare or infrastructure, represents a kind of legal fraud perpetrated by private operators and entirely condoned by the government. Many expenses claims are entirely within the legal rules, and within the field of 'things that are totally legal' aren't there far more important and far more expensive things to worry about? In America, senators get an enormous fixed budget to run their office and do anything else they want with.

I can't help noticing that these leaks and releases are mostly coming through the conservative press - the Mail and the Maily Telegraph - and I'm worried that there's a manifest intention to draw attention to the petty personal faults of MPs, while distracting from the very real and very dire SYSTEMIC problems this country suffers. Some articles have mentioned the tiniest silliest things, like trouser presses and packets of hobnots. I realise there's a principle at stake but if an MP wants to buy some hobnots I'll donate the money itself, even if it's a politician I hate. All of this focus smacks of petty, personal politics: it seems too easy to get pissed off at this kind of thing.

[/TLDR]

Let's hear it.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Stephen Fry has his say.

See also the laughable self-justification of Tory MP Stuart Jackson (for Peterburgh) who claims that because he claimed expenses to have someone teach him how to maintain his pool, rather than to maintain the pool per se, he was investing in a sustainable skill and therefore this represented "value for money" for the taxpayer.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

I can't help noticing that these leaks and releases are mostly coming through the conservative press - the Mail and the Maily Telegraph - and I'm worried that there's a manifest intention to draw attention to the petty personal faults of MPs, while distracting from the very real and very dire SYSTEMIC problems this country suffers. Some articles have mentioned the tiniest silliest things, like trouser presses and packets of hobnots. I realise there's a principle at stake but if an MP wants to buy some hobnots I'll donate the money itself, even if it's a politician I hate. All of this focus smacks of petty, personal politics: it seems too easy to get pissed off at this kind of thing.

[/TLDR]

Let's hear it.

The Conservatives have been hit hard by these reports as they have made some of the worse claims, so i don't think it's an attack on Labour. Personally i'm glad they've been leaked. The fact they fought tooth and nail spending well over £100,000 of taxpayers money trying and stop them being released and then delaying the official release during the summer recess and after and EU votes.

I think that MP's should just be able to claim for rent or mortgage and travel costs that's all. If they buy a second home on taxpayers money then it should return to the taxpayer when he leaves, or if the taxpayer is paying the morgage then the taxpayer should get some of the profits when it is sold.
They can pay for their own food and luxury's. They don't need a £2000 entertainment system with a full Virgin Media packages to do there job. They don't need a bath plug to do the job.

I remember the report on ITV news on 2 MP's that live on the same street but represent 2 different areas, one MP claimed over £75,000 the other £4000. Big difference there, why is democracy so much more expensive down the road.
This whole affair has been sickening and eye opening. It was pathetic hearing them justifying themselves by saying they didn't break the rules they made. Or that it was a simply error, and these are the same pricks running the country.
Gordon Brown is the most useless PM and should do like Cameron, in sorting out his own house himself. Get Liebour to go though and see what needs paying back and fire those who refuse.

 

[repiV]

Stephen Fry has served a prison sentence for fraud. I'm not surprised he thinks it's nothing to be concerned about.

In what the hell other line of work would you be able to claim for luxury items, kit your house out and feed yourself (other than for the purposes of entertaining clients) on expenses?

It's an absolute ****ing joke. So let me get this straight, I pay around 33% tax on my pretty average earnings. I pay tax on pretty much everything else except breathing. If I had to declare my own tax, I'd get hit with massive fines for being even a day late with the return and be looking at prison time for concealing even the smallest amount from the taxman.

And then some useless piece of shit spends my money that was forcibly taken from me on a home cinema system. Or renovating his house to sell at a huge profit. Or to pay a fine for non-payment of council tax(!). As if tax in this country wasn't theft enough already, it sure as hell is now.

The hypocrisy of it is the most staggering. Socialists using the public purse to live it large. The man in charge of stamp duty who thinks that we should have to pay his for him.

For that matter, I don't even see why we should have to pay for them to have second homes and travel either. Certainly not for living in somewhere like Reading or Luton that's a half hour commute to central London. A colleague of mine works here in Exeter, and lives in Northampton (that's 250 odd miles away). he stays in B+Bs out of his own pocket. I know someone who commutes the 440 mile round trip from Hull to London on a daily basis. On a motorbike.

Essentially they can levy any kind of tax, law or restriction on the public because it doesn't affect them as they can do WTF they like and put it all on expenses. Lots of people have to commute long distances, because huge areas of this country have no decent employment opportunities. Time these ****s got a dose of the reality they created.

 

[Raziaar]

Whenever you say MP, I think military police.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

I'm fairly inclined to agree that the expenses claimed by MPs are relatively minor as far as numbers go.
I think Stephen Fry was probably right. It is simply distracting from more important issues, and we're probably going to end up with yet another stack of legislation built on a knee-jerk reaction. Legislation that doesn't go away easily, and just results in all kinds of mess down the road.

Having said that, that doesn't mean that this is something we should simply forget about. A lot of them were pretty snivelly about it, and I found that unsettling. I know politics is a messy business, but you can actually see them voting for nothing more than to protect their arses (Though thankfully not all of them have acted so poorly)

And besides that, the timing for this (Perhaps deliberate) is a bit poor. Although the recession isn't as bad as the media would apparently like it to be, there are people who are worried, and when you hear about politicians enjoying such freedoms, it really just kind of rubs it in your face a bit.

So, whilst I personally don't see it is a great tragedy (Hey, they're only human. I'd want perks if I were an MP), I can understand why some people do.


I'm actually for MPs using council houses or something like that. Perhaps they could build a swanky (Although, better make it budget swank I think) block of flats somewhere near Westminster which MPs could have free use of. They don't buy it as such, but they take ownership so long as they're an MP.
Another sticking point I remember from a while ago was the matter of Personal Drivers. Another idea could be that MPs have a kind of car pool (With drivers) which they can dip into. I'm sure these ideas are very Labour. Maybe not New Labour though...

 

[Solaris]

Haha that would be crazy, it would attract to much attention and be a terror target.

I say just leave it as it is but force them to be open about their expenses and then you can see who's scum and who isn't.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Dammit, Solaris, I would have gotten away with it...

 

[Sulkdodds]

I say just leave it as it is but force them to be open about their expenses and then you can see who's scum and who isn't.

Afaik all these revelations were going to be released in July anyway if they hadn't been leaked. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but after the last expenses scandal the government agreed to periodically release all the figures.

I would be in favour of an MP hotel if only because a TV channel could get permission to film 'MP Hotel' there. The idea of all of them living together is hilarious. In fact, an independent commission could be appointed to make them accountable to the public by making them stars in a reality TV show.

I might respond more later?

 

[repiV]

Afaik all these revelations were going to be released in July anyway if they hadn't been leaked. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but after the last expenses scandal the government agreed to periodically release all the figures.

Their addresses would have been obscured for "security reasons". Which would have hidden the biggest scam of all - changing the designation of a second home to milk the system.

Also, they've been fighting against having the expenses released in court for three years now, at our expense of course. Hardly what I'd called agreeing...

I have to say, it's somewhat peculiar that noone on this forum seems to give two shits but the rest of the country is up in arms about it. I can only conclude the reason is because most of you don't actually pay any taxes yet.

 

[Solaris]

Hey I pay alcohol tax with my student loan!

 

[Laivasse]

I can't think of a problem more 'dire and systemic' than the poor calibre of the people in charge of the country. As such, for me the expenses scandal easily ranks up there alongside the credit crisis and our overseas misadventures in terms of importance.

Many of our MPs have milked the system in a way that would never be tolerated in any other walk of life. If this had happened in isolation, in a political class that generally carried out its duties well and fairly, then it might be more forgivable, but as it stands we have a political culture given to moral proselytising and scapegoating, perpetuated by politicians who have developed a frankly disgusting infallibility complex. You can see that in evidence in the way they have pathetically tried to justify themselves in the wake of this scandal - Lord Foulkes getting pissy at a BBC presenter earning £92k when he actually earns £20k more than her NOT COUNTING his second job and expenses; Margaret Moran indignantly maintaining that she was right to claim £20k on her lover's house, because she couldn't ask him to move away from Luton for her (my heart ****ing bleeds)...

IMO this is not about money, it's about an attitude problem that goes right to the heart of everything wrong with our democracy. We have - possibly as a result of an even deeper societal values problem - ended up with a ruling class who have no concept whatsoever of public service, but who are instead fixated upon maintaining power and maximising their own personal gain. They are incapable of perceiving themselves as ever being at fault, and that arrogant self-assuredness has contributed to the Commons' transformation into an ineffectual, partisan pit of useless bickering. If all they give a shit about is never being wrong, and scamming a home cinema system on their expenses tab, then is it any wonder that so few of them took a principled stance on the Iraq War/42 Day Detention/ID Cards/call and email monitoring/whatever? That there are other things they've gotten wrong is not a reason to overlook the fact that they've screwed up over their expenses culture, especially when this is one of the very few times where the momentum exists to hold anyone to account over it.

As for Stephen Fry, he missed the point spectacularly. I like the guy as an entertainer, but he should be careful of believing too strongly in his own intellect, especially when he comes out with such luvvie guff. He made the point that journalists shouldn't be the ones to criticise MPs for their expense claims because journalists are all on the fiddle themselves - completely glossing over the fact that journalists don't do it on the taxpayer's tab (and the BBC is pretty strict about expenses as I understand). I remember Fry deriding a couple of guests on QI last series for trying to say something negative about the surveillance society in Britain - 'Ooh, you sound like a couple of moaning old men...!' On other occasions, too, I get the impression that he just hates people who complain. He comes across as an apologist for the establishment and the status quo, and shouldn't be asked about such matters. Should he have nothing intelligent to say about an issue, he would serve his reputation as a 'thinking man's entertainer' far better by eloquently declining to comment.

For the record I'm not opposed to the idea of MPs having an allowance, but I think their eligibility to a second home should at least be subject to a thorough individual assessment. MPs living half an hour's train ride from London, for example, shouldn't get shit.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

Sorry to barge in without reading the entire thread as of yet, but I have been following the story for the past week or so.

I do agree that the coverage the story has received has been a little over the top, but I am also really quite glad the MPs are getting such a hard time. Some of the claims these people who we vote in, these people we trust to make important decisions are unbelievable and I'm actually pretty annoyed they've abused a system to such a massive degree.

It's true they most haven't broken any rules (although some have, house flipping, avoiding tax / NI payments etc.) but still they have claimed for things way beyond necessity.

It's angered me more so due to the fact that things like the minimum wage have only been increased by 70p due to economic restraints, nurses can't have their 2% wage increase and teachers are equally badly paid. There isn't the finance available...well ok, but stop putting in claims to 'clean a moat' 'blinds for £1000+' 'kit kats and sanitary towels' 'porn videos' 'leaky pipes under tennis courts'. These people already earn £65,000 a year and they are taking the piss. They even claim for food on top of that salary. Who else here has to buy their food from their wages? Welcome to the real world.

Now it's extremely obvious they hate the system, now it's been exposed...and it 'must change', it's so dreadful. I really dislike the fact that before they were happy to milk the system for all its worth, and not be in the slightest bit bothered. Some of the MPs have agreed to pay back some of the claims, but they should all be forced to pay back the ridiculous claims. One MP has borrowed around £42k, who only now has said he needs to think about a way of getting this money back. Now he's been found out. Unbelievable.

I know there are a few MPs which haven't been abusing the expenses system and I'm surprised other MPs didn't think they should be acting in a more professional and honest manner like those few individuals. In fact some of those honest MPs have been ostracised by other MPs and the speaker who seem more angry at the fact these details have been leaked, rather than the 'open to abuse expenses system' problem.

Anyway, I know it's all slightly over dramatic, but at the same time I think its pretty scandalous how much they've been getting away with. Everyone is having to tighten their belts in a recession, and there are extremely wealthy MPs claiming for the cleaning of their moat. I can't believe that, and I don't this story to go away without a fuss.

footnote: Have I got news for you (first 15 minutes) was brilliant this week. Just a barrage of jokes and abuse about this story. I laughed so much, excellent!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kftlc/Have_I_Got_News_for_You_Series_37_Episode_4/

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I think its pretty disgusting. I don't understand why MPs can't have some flats or something in London where they can live while they are here. The law should be changed significantly IMO.

The other problem with this, is that I'm sure there are many politicians who aren't fraudsters, but are nevertheless getting raped by the media.

 

[stemot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kftlc/Have_I_Got_News_for_You_Series_37_Episode_4/

Thanks for the link, best laugh I've had all week.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

lol brits and their pretend politics

Spoiler

actually this is sort of interesting to read about

 

[Minister]

My dad has a fairly respectable position in a maintenance engineering company. He's allowed expenses for travel, as he often has to go to places such as Scotland and Northern Ireland. If he ever decided to fiddle the expense system and was subsequently caught, he would be downright fired. There wouldn't be two ways about it. This is what makes it all the worse. Why are MPs so different to anybody else, why do usual working practices not apply to them?

It just pisses me off really.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Because 99% of them made claims that were within the rules. The rules were stupid. Not that it's absolving the MPs of any blame or responsibility, but the system was flawed from the outset.

 

[VirusType2]

No accountability, it's always a problem, at least in western government.

In some countries, where they have balls, they revolt. Of course they aren't going up against nuclear superpowers though.

 

[Mr Stabby]

The problem is they set the rules on their expenses.

 

[repiV]

No accountability, it's always a problem, at least in western government.

In some countries, where they have balls, they revolt. Of course they aren't going up against nuclear superpowers though.

That's one thing you gotta give the French credit for. If the government try and do something the people don't want, they bring the country to a standstill until they relent.

Pussy Brits who put up with anything = hello police state.

 

[Solaris]

I love expenses. When I was on a BBC radio debate it was great they paid my days expenses.

On the train down for London I asked for a receipt for my coke and sandwich and the man in the shop said - here's one for a tenner if you getting expenses paid. I gladly took it and in my own part - swindled the system.

But yes yes, the system is flawed and we all must apologise.

 

[Eejit]

I don't really understand the shock. As a rule I trust politicians about as far as I can throw them.

 

[Pax]

I love expenses. When I was on a BBC radio debate it was great they paid my days expenses.

On the train down for London I asked for a receipt for my coke and sandwich and the man in the shop said - here's one for a tenner if you getting expenses paid. I gladly took it and in my own part - swindled the system.

But yes yes, the system is flawed and we all must apologise.

Clearly you're scum. Or in that, the worst teenage angst induced communist ever.

 

[ComradeBadger]

My dad has a fairly respectable position in a maintenance engineering company. He's allowed expenses for travel, as he often has to go to places such as Scotland and Northern Ireland. If he ever decided to fiddle the expense system and was subsequently caught, he would be downright fired. There wouldn't be two ways about it. This is what makes it all the worse. Why are MPs so different to anybody else, why do usual working practices not apply to them?

It just pisses me off really.

My expense claims get scrutinised beyond all belief - just to be sure that I'm not fiddling the system.... it took me 3 months to get £14 back, haha (larger ones they have been quicker on but still)

I think it's abhorrant this, it's just naked self-service. If any of them were in any other line of work they would have been fired without a second thought.