Far Cry's spider sense.(HL2 related)

[bgesley426]

Now now now don't move this thread just so fast. This is related to HL2. In one of the several interviews Gabe gave, one of them was in regard to the sound and sound effects in the game. He noted that when there was an enemy coming towards you or was in the vicinity some soft music would begin playing, almost trance-ish. Then when you were really close to an enemy and firing all over the place trying to get him to die the music would be fast tempo and energetic, exciting.

In the Far Cry demo that was recently released I noticed they used this same technique as a warning to the player that there was an entity near. I'm wondering, from those of you that have played the demo what were your thoughts on it?

I felt it was a little bogus, in way yes its exciting and furthers the gameplay's fun factor however it seemed to me to be a little cheap. If you were in the game experiencing it you wouldn't be aware of the enemies presence untill you saw them, or heard them. Since the music really only came on while the entity was coming nearer you still might not have known of their presence untill the music began playing. capiche? Plus the binoculars in Far Cry is a cheap wall hack if you ask me.

So for those of you that have played the demo what were your reactions to this new game technique of music as a warning system and as an additional factor in gameplay? How do you think it will compare in HL2's case? Do you think it would be beneficial?

edit: and sorry in advance if that was brought up before

 

[clarky003]

maybe it was a little cheap , but its great the way it adds real mood and character to the Island and the situation, .. without it, it wouldnt be as blood pumping, or nerve dangling.. music has as much emotional influence as the image and gameplay, its massive, take it away, or make it crap, and all of a sudden your missing almost half of your game,,

more noticably its fantastic, when you go inside, and the sounds change from outside to in, its another level of depth, and the barricade HL2 vid is an indicator of what HL2 has to offer in depth of sound.. so too the other video's (bugbait)

 

[Brian Damage]

I don't think that HL2's will work in quite the same way. The way I understand it, it works by area, not enemy NPCs...

 

[clarky003]

are you sure brian, cause when an enemy spots u, the music builds and changes immediately, no matter where you are,, it seems AI related

 

[Spiffae]

yeah, what Brain Damage said... The Sound system in HL2 will be an area/trigger based system... the closest to that system that i've played in recent memory is Silent Hill 3.

There is an interview somewhere, and in it, Gabe goes through how the "soundscapes" system works in detail.

 

[Brian Damage]

I was talking about in HL2...

Anyway, music after an enemy spots you isn't bad, it's when there's an enemy around the next corner that by rights you shouldn't know about, but you do anyway because there's a tune playing that's bad...

 

[clarky003]

hmmm, how does an area trigger determin weither an enemy's seen you or not?, unless its an area control monitor for the AI, getting ready to cue the music changes?,, but that sounds a bit wibbly wobbly

edit: so In half life 2, when you walk into an area, even if the enemy's round the corner some distance. and fails to spot you, (through a wall).. the music still starts up all exiting...?

 

[MultiVaC]

Gabe said that they would add tones into the mix of ambient sounds to give players a sense of fear. Also, some of the HL2 music is quite subtle. Take the music in the Traptown area with the zombies, at first I mistook it for sounds in the city.

 

[Brian Damage]

clarky, I was going on what you were saying, which I assume was about FarCry...

 

[clarky003]

lol u nailed my question before I even asked it , lol.. I see then,, intresting.

do you think an AI controlled sound music changing system is more complex, or are valve, forced into doing it the other way for more control and less randomness

 

[Brian Damage]

Just to clarify:

I don't think that HL2's will work in quite the same way. The way I understand it, it works by area, not enemy NPCs...

... was about Half Life 2

Anyway, music after an enemy spots you isn't bad, it's when there's an enemy around the next corner that by rights you shouldn't know about, but you do anyway because there's a tune playing that's bad...

... was going on from what you'd just said, and what bgesley had said about the music in FarCry...

EDIT: And I'm not sure what you mean by that question...

 

[bgesley426]

I think, or in my opinion, HL2 should utilize both aspects of those two different techniques. Have the music change based on area, and partly on situation. I mean lets say you walk into a library so the music would be something soft and delightful, almost classic. But when there are 50 manhacks I think Chopin's No.5 is the last thing I'd like to be experiencing in that situation. Tho creating a sound system the utilizes situation as well as location has got to be magnificently difficult.

 

[Letters]

do you think an AI controlled sound music changing system is more complex, or are valve, forced into doing it the other way for more control and less randomness

I know I'd want it more controlled... much cleaner that way. No switching in and out of music like a spider monkey on crack... and no telling that you're close to an enemy just by the music... loses the surprise factor, no?

 

[clarky003]

umm, im sorta fuzzy myself, im talking about the complexity of programing area sound controllers compared to AI sound controllers,, and in far cry it makes for random situations, where if one of them spots you,, you immediately know about it (que music), but it seems slightly more complex., wondered if valve are using area controllers to simplify complications in AI, and make it less random, then say if a combine soldier spots you one time,, and then he doesnt the next time you play it...

lol any easier to understand.. :rolling:

edit: brian got a bit confused with the question so re did it

 

[Brian Damage]

I think it'll probably have "combat situation" music. At least, I hope it will...

And I reckon that you could make a situationally aware music system simply by tying the sound system into the enemy AI, so that when they start getting suspicious or hostile, you could play different tunes...

EDIT: And, clarky, I don't think that the difference is really that great. AI: IF player is spotted, THEN fade in danger music. Area: IF player is in [area], THEN play [area]music.

 

[clarky003]

yeh thats cool,, Far Cry goes some way to attempting that.

 

[iamaelephant]

Personally I hope it's like Far Cry's system. Music is normally something I dont pay alot of attention to in games, I'm fairly unobservant of that sort of thing. But in Far Cry I was blown away, I loved the music system, it really gets you pumped during gunfights, and also makes you anxious when you're moving around in the bush, unsure if you'll bumb into an enemy soldier. It was done brilliantly, in my opinion.

 

[Jackal hit]

umm, im sorta fuzzy myself, im talking about the complexity of programing area sound controllers compared to AI sound controllers,, and in far cry it makes for random situations, where if one of them spots you,, you immediately know about it (que music), but it seems slightly more complex., wondered if valve are using area controllers to simplify complications in AI, and make it less random, then say if a combine soldier spots you one time,, and then he doesnt the next time you play it...

lol any easier to understand.. :rolling:

w/ far cry, i found that the music was too much of a que, any time i'm running in the open and i hear music it's like, okay get down! ... then i start dancing and get shot. har har bad joke, but i'd immediately go prone, making the situation much easier on me. hope they tweak that a bit, so it's not a giveaway. with halflife2, as someone else mentioned, i think it'll be REALLY subtle... i remember my first hl playing days, when i first beat the game... i didn't even know there was music. it wasn't until my second time through the game, i was like "whoa... there's music, holy crap" then i realized that those were moments that were more tense. as my digital multimedia art professor tells us, "audio is the most effective communicator to the audience, without it, you have nothing in the way of emotion" i think this is very true.

 

[clarky003]

its usually a subconcious thing, but as for balancing the enviroment out, yeh it must be tough, not overdoing or underdoing its, with situation and feel for the location

edit: Jackal I think your right, Far Cry cues, but it cues well, and its enjoyable like that (you forget the cue afterawhile when you get sucked into the game), music in Half life was ace

 

[bgesley426]

as my digital multimedia art professor tells us, "audio is the most effective communicator to the audience, without it, you have nothing in the way of emotion" i think this is very true.

I agree...to an extent. Think of Blair Witch Project. Tons of people felt the feeling of being lost and scared and it was completely without a soundtrack. But I feel that artistic way is no different from fine art painters and abstract painters knowing that even if you break a rule in painting you can still create someting captivating.

Lets just hope they don't go "well we don't NEED music I mean people will scare themselves pissless with silence."

 

[clarky003]

yeh blair whitch was done like that for the realistic real life appeal, dunno about you.. but u think Gordons got headphones on? either that or his brain plays music to him... lol

 

[Jackal hit]

yeah blair witch was being passed off as a documentary, and then "unedited" footage of what happened ... or something. heh they couldn't just add music. examples of sound making emotions more "real" or whatever, the jaws "doo doo" ...lol .. lmao the two notes on the bass i meant. the "weee weee weee weee" that accompanies stabbings in horror movies/thrillers, the music in epic movies, at the end where the hero dies to make things more poignant, ie in gladiator at the end, there's soft music at the end, music at the end of braveheart etc. however, these all take a back seat to one movie in particular. watch david lynch's "Eraser Head" now THERE'S a brilliant movie. every single sound works in unison with the scene and is placed just so, to get a specific reaction, that builds over the course of the movie. very difficult movie to sit through IMO. should be watched with a break in the middle. OH YEAH and NEVER watch that if you're trippin on something heh.

edit: now someone's gonna take some lsd or shrooms or something and watch the movie. pffff stupid. btw, the HEV suit has a built in ipod. oh wait, nvm, you can recharge the suit.

 

[Cyperious]

Yes the music is fine, NOLF2 had the same music system, and it was bearable

 

[bgesley426]

haha yeah david lynch movies are awesomely off the wall. I haven't seen Eraser Head but I did see Mulholland Drive. Also I've never really noticed how funny sounds look like when they are converted into text .ie duh duh (JAWS) and in starwars the little laser "pkew! pkew!" sound when those ships are fighiting. Hilarious.

 

[Jackal hit]

lmao haha yeah

 

[Non-Sequitur]

If the music sounds anything like Half-Life 1's music... I'll be turning it off. Nothing ruins the atmosphere for me like electronic beats... 3DRealms are leaving out the music in Duke Nukem Forever and pumping up the atmospheric sounds - that's a good thing in my book. Too bad there's still at least a year or two before that comes out. :x

 

[Mr-Fusion]

If the music sounds anything like Half-Life 1's music... I'll be turning it off. Nothing ruins the atmosphere for me like electronic beats... 3DRealms are leaving out the music in Duke Nukem Forever and pumping up the atmospheric sounds - that's a good thing in my book. Too bad there's still at least a year or two before that comes out. :x

I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU!

I had the music off for HL1 as well because i too hated the electronic beats. I feel you should always use timeless music (orchestras with violins, trumpets and all the other shiznit) when it comes to certain games and movies. Half-Life is the sort of game that would really benefit from well orchestrated music.

Though judging from the beta we're in for more electronic beats. I'll give them another chance for the full game and have the music on. But i probably won't like it...

 

[bgesley426]

Totally like in COD during the 3rd Russian battle, where you have no guns you and you just rush the yard. Thats was a great music. sure got me pumped

 

[Dougy]

the Brits mission at pegasus bridge was better.

with about 1:30 to go the music starts playing and you realise your fighting for your life!

 

[Frosty]

I plan to incorporate that feature into my mod, so luckily Far Cry supports it as well as Half-Life 2. I mean, what's a Terminator game if it doesn't have the retro '80s synth music?

 

[PvtRyan]

HL2 is supposed to have this subconcious thing, at triggers, a very subtle sound is played, and you suddenly feel a lot more scared than you did, but you don't have a clue why. That could really add to the atmosphere of a scene.
Music like in Tunnels would be great, I agree that I didn't much like the HL1 music, it pumped you up but didn't fit the atmosphere.

 

[Chewcky]

I just played through the FarCry demo again and i noticed that the music does not happen when an enemy is around, it only occurs after you have taken a shot at the enemy and they are aware of your presence.

 

[daveodeth]

i hope though they take out the change in music for a short encounter say just one headcrab, because there wasn't anything more annoying in the baldurs gate games when you have a few weak enemies to kill and the music goes into big fight mode.

 

[iamaelephant]

HL2 is supposed to have this subconcious thing, at triggers, a very subtle sound is played, and you suddenly feel a lot more scared than you did, but you don't have a clue why. That could really add to the atmosphere of a scene.
Music like in Tunnels would be great, I agree that I didn't much like the HL1 music, it pumped you up but didn't fit the atmosphere.

Sure that's what Gabe told us, and call me cynical, but I dont believe it will have quite the same effect in practise as it does on paper. I just cant imagine being scared by nothing more than some music I can bearly even notice.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Well, it works in films doesnt it.....


I don't see why it couldnt work in games. Especially when your so busy playing the game that you don't consiously notice it. Subliminal ilfluences are not a uncommon thing in good films.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

In lots of games, i'm really annoyed by the pop-up music that happens when someone sees you, even if you had no idea they were there.

Splinter cell, as an example, has a sudden chord that pops up if someone sees you or becomes suspicious of anything, then the music changes, and then there's another chord to indicate that they've given up the search. How were you supposed to know those things without the help of the noise? Nothing can ever surprise you under those conditions, and it totally breaks the effect.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU!

I had the music off for HL1 as well because i too hated the electronic beats. I feel you should always use timeless music (orchestras with violins, trumpets and all the other shiznit) when it comes to certain games and movies. Half-Life is the sort of game that would really benefit from well orchestrated music.

You're dead-on. The number one thing that dates a movie is using popular music from the time of release... all of these movies with rap and techno in them recently are disposable. Yes, even The Matrix.

Imagine if Star Wars had cheesy late 70's synth music. Ergh. It would never have lasted as long as it has. When you're working in the sci-fi and fantasy genre, you really need that extra layer of class and depth that a full orchestrated score can give. Look at LOTR... in conjunction with the visuals, the music almost brings a tear to my eye. Howard Shore did a stunning job. Those movies are going to stand the test of time, no doubt.

Games are a little different though... You don't even need music in a first person shooter if you get the atmospheric sounds right. If there's going to be music, make sure it's orchestral though.

 

[bgesley426]

Howard Shore has ALWAYS done a stunning job. I've followed his stuff for awhile now. Its not doesn't have melody or rythmn it just has a certain sense to it. Really amazing. Oh and btw on the extended dvd disc set for Lord of the Rings Fellowship o...etc. There is a HOBBIT SONG! Yes girls and boy there is a Hobbit musical number.

 

[Slash]

The first time I've seen enviromentally triggered music in a FPS was Serious Sam. It started up as you were attacked and died down as stuff died It's not a new idea. HL2 is supposed to be slightly different, but I don't see it as some amazing feature.

 

[Gorgon]

Gabe Stated at an Interview that HL2 will have dynamic Music effects, means that the music will keep changing Continuously from one type to another depending on the player position in the World. The music beats and tones will change in extended track without the requirement of Looping the sound again and again. He also mentioned that the Music will have a magical and emotional effect on the player action.

The critics argued that Dynamic Music is impossbile to implement. If this is true, it will be a big step in the music game industry.