FBI arrests 5 US citizens and 2 others

[clarky003]

Apparently plotting to terrorise the Sears tower in Chicargo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5108546.stm

However the latest report on BBC news 24 from this story was interesting.

The FBI suspected links to Al Queda. They reported none have been found, instead saying that they were trying to buy weapons not off an Al Queda link but from a US government official.

*evil monkey pose*

 

[15357]

"They would come out late at night and exercise. It seemed like a military boot camp they were working on there. They would come out and stand guard," said Tashawn Rose.

"They seemed brainwashed. They said they had given their lives to Allah," she added.

I can see why they got arrested.

 

[sinkoman]

I can see why they got arrested.

 

[15357]

?

 

[sinkoman]

?

I agree.

Why were these guys arrested, if there was no evidence to base their accusations on?

 

[Ome_Vince]

Way to go FBI, tssk -> let them buy the weapons first, and THEN arrest them What are you going to charge em for now?
-TRYING to buy weapons?
-Being a brainwashed muslim?
-Training like in a bootcamp?

Good luck with finding hard evidence to put them away longer than 4 days.
Dont know how the legal system in the States works, but over here "suspicion" isnt enough to jail people..

 

[Element Alpha]

Apparently plotting to terrorise the Sears tower in Chicargo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5108546.stm

However the latest report on BBC news 24 from this story was interesting.

The FBI suspected links to Al Queda. They reported none have been found, instead saying that they were trying to buy weapons not off an Al Queda link but from a US government official.

*evil monkey pose*

Can't you read?

They were plotting to terrorise the Sears tower.

You can't just go around scaring buildings! Especially not in the name of some foreign god!

Last night I saw a kid get arrested for saying "boo" to a mailbox in the name of Krishna.

Whatever. Maybe there's truth behind it after all?

 

[Ludah]

Especially not in the name of some foreign god!

You know, I'm wondering if this comment is really as insensitive as it sounds in my head. It's like saying "Hey, at least it would be better if it was in the name of Jesus!".

 

[15357]

Well, I don't know much about America, but planning to kill/destroy people and planning to side with the enemy and terrorize are serious crimes.

 

[Ludah]

I'm not disputing that. My issue is with with the idea that legitimacy is dependent on which god you're killing in the name of.

 

[15357]

All gods are the same. Anyone who says that their god is the best and that they'll kill people for it is an idiotic asshole, IMO.

 

[99.vikram]

Last night I saw a kid get arrested for saying "boo" to a mailbox in the name of Krishna.

That was me :O

But they'll never get me to confess :sniper:

 

[The Monkey]

You know, I'm wondering if this comment is really as insensitive as it sounds in my head. It's like saying "Hey, at least it would be better if it was in the name of Jesus!".

I'm pretty sure (s)he was being ironic.

 

[gick]

Way to go FBI, tssk -> let them buy the weapons first, and THEN arrest them What are you going to charge em for now?
-TRYING to buy weapons?
-Being a brainwashed muslim?
-Training like in a bootcamp?

Good luck with finding hard evidence to put them away longer than 4 days.
Dont know how the legal system in the States works, but over here "suspicion" isnt enough to jail people..

Guantanamo Bay

 

[Korgoth]

Way to go FBI, tssk -> let them buy the weapons first, and THEN arrest them What are you going to charge em for now?
-TRYING to buy weapons?
-Being a brainwashed muslim?
-Training like in a bootcamp?

Good luck with finding hard evidence to put them away longer than 4 days.
Dont know how the legal system in the States works, but over here "suspicion" isnt enough to jail people..

They are being charged with conspiring to cause terror, they found absolutely no evidence to suggest this group could actually do anything, I.E. no bomb making materials, or references, no hard evidence at all. The only joke here, is the idea of free speech. Say the wrong thing, and your gone.
(disclaimer- i do not sympathize with those arrested, for all intents and purposes they probably are very guilty and were conspiring to kill and terrorize my country, but to see our freedoms railroaded so easily makes me want to cry )

 

[VictimOfScience]

Good luck with finding hard evidence to put them away longer than 4 days.
Dont know how the legal system in the States works, but over here "suspicion" isnt enough to jail people..

Tell that to The Guildford Four....

 

[Ome_Vince]

Well, I don't know much about America, but planning to kill/destroy people and planning to side with the enemy and terrorize are serious crimes.

Morally yes, but planning to do wicked stuff, or yelling it in the streets is not a crime at all.
I can yell i want to bomb whatever, and i might get arrested for disturbing the public, or whatever, but no more than that.
Now if i buy explosives, you might have a case-> and even then its hard since i havent done anything with em. You could lock me up for illegal posession of explosives.

Its funny, when going undercover for anti-drug busts they wait until the purchase or transfer is made, so they have actual proof in court.
Weird that it seems terrorism has different laws...

 

[The Monkey]

Morally yes, but planning to do wicked stuff, or yelling it in the streets is not a crime at all.
I can yell i want to bomb whatever, and i might get arrested for disturbing the public, or whatever, but no more than that.
Now if i buy explosives, you might have a case-> and even then its hard since i havent done anything with em. You could lock me up for illegal posession of explosives.

Its funny, when going undercover for anti-drug busts they wait until the purchase or transfer is made, so they have actual proof in court.
Weird that it seems terrorism has different laws...

Planning a crime is not a crime in itself in America? :O

So if I walk into a police station and say "Hey, I'm gonna kill a man at noon tomorrow." and they're like "OK, cool. Call it after you've done it so that we can arrest you" "Sure thing. See you then"

Can you clarify, please?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Isn't this entrapment?

 

[15357]

Planning a crime is not a crime in itself in America? :O

So if I walk into a police station and say "Hey, I'm gonna kill a man at noon tomorrow." and they're like "OK, cool. Call it after you've done it so that we can arrest you" "Sure thing. See you then"

Can you clarify, please?

lol

IIRC, theres this law in Texas which states that you have to notify the victim before 24 hours of the crime.

 

[Element Alpha]

You know, I'm wondering if this comment is really as insensitive as it sounds in my head. It's like saying "Hey, at least it would be better if it was in the name of Jesus!".

I forgot the sarcasm tag, sorry. But now that I think about it, I wonder how it would be if they were to do their misterious nighttrainings in the name of Jesus instead.

Good call. Although we'll probably never know.

Still, I don't like to dismiss it as just another NSA (or whatever service) error. Maybe they really intended to do some evil, and then I'm glad they were stopped.

 

[Yuri]

I forgot the sarcasm tag, sorry. But now that I think about it, I wonder how it would be if they were to do their misterious nighttrainings in the name of Jesus instead.

Yeah, abortion clinics are sometimes bombed by crazy Christian fanatics. And those people are usually, you know, sentenced to like, death or something. I hope, at least. Religious fanatics do all sorts of insane things, no matter what the religion.

I can't believe this thread, though. There are no links to Al Queda, and that was mentioned in the headlines. That doesn't change the fact that people were conspiring to blow up buildings filled with civilians. Why does everyone in this thread act like they know all the evidence against these people? You don't, and that's usually kept secret for a good reason. :|

I don't understand why some people think its so "cool" to complain about preemptive arrests. If you were in the Sears tower and they blew it up, would you be saying "Well at least they were given the chance to before being arrested!" No, I'm pretty sure you'd be too dead.

I'm not so much as a paranoid nut to think that they are being arrested for no reason with no evidence. :|

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Feds got jealous over the Canucks recent "terror" foilment and is trying to one-up them.
Staging the war back at home makes people forget about it in other places...

 

[Yuri]

Hey Zee Rue Kin, you forgot your hat. :upstare:

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Oh thanks.

 

[Yuri]

No problem

 

[Hapless]

In order for someone to be charged with conspiracy, they must:

a: conspire:E
b: with one or more other people and
c: commit an act in furtherance of the conspiracy. Such as meeting with someone they thought was going to provide them with weapons, bomb-making materials, etc.

No it is not entrapment. Entrapment is inducing someone to do something they are not already pre-disposed to do. If I pick up a prostitute and arrest her after she agrees to sex for money, that is not entrapment because she was already pre-disposed to do it.

OMG! OMG! OMG! Our rights are eroding, our rights are eroding!!!:bonce:

 

[Ome_Vince]

Planning a crime is not a crime in itself in America? :O

So if I walk into a police station and say "Hey, I'm gonna kill a man at noon tomorrow." and they're like "OK, cool. Call it after you've done it so that we can arrest you" "Sure thing. See you then"

Can you clarify, please?

Uhm no, they'd probably put/advice you to a mental home, since luckily freedom of speech is not a crime

Also, by that same logic:

I hold a Quran in my hand yell "Death To America!", and "i'm going to blow you guys up" and the police will arrest me and charge me with.... WHAT??

In that case lets arrest every disturbed anti social teenager, for they sometimes yell far worse things.

Also dont turn it around and put the load on me-> if America is going to trial somebody its only natural i ask (and THEIR load to prove): what is the evidence? What are their crimes?, and what can be proven in court?

-They are islamic?
-They have a Quran?
-They have blueprints of the seers tower?
-They asked some dude if he could sell them bombs?

Like i explained with the drug example, its kinda funny there they wait for the drugs to be sold/delivered before moving in, so they have actual proof. What is the proof here?

Also, lol walking into the police station yelling you wish to kill somebody can hardly be called "planning a crime"....

 

[Yuri]

Uhm no, they'd probably put/advice you to a mental home, since luckily freedom of speech is not a crime

Also, by that same logic:

I hold a Quran in my hand yell "Death To America!", and "i'm going to blow you guys up" and the police will arrest me and charge me with.... WHAT??

In that case lets arrest every disturbed anti social teenager, for they sometimes yell far worse things.

Also dont turn it around and put the load on me-> if America is going to trial somebody its only natural i ask (and THEIR load to prove): what is the evidence? What are their crimes?, and what can be proven in court?

-They are islamic?
-They have a Quran?
-They have blueprints of the seers tower?
-They asked some dude if he could sell them bombs?

Like i explained with the drug example, its kinda funny there they wait for the drugs to be sold/delivered before moving in, so they have actual proof. What is the proof here?

Also, lol walking into the police station yelling you wish to kill somebody can hardly be called "planning a crime"....

You must not be familiar with anything that makes sense, even remotely. :upstare: Unfortunately for you, apparantly, death threats and commiting conspiracy are not legal, even under freedom of speech. Doh!

Saying that you are going to kill someone is considered assault. It is a death threat. You can be arrested for that. Planning to kill someone is a very, very serious crime. Planning to blow a building up is also a very serious crime, so long as there is enough evidence to support it. Freedom of speech does not include funny things like liable, slander, hate speech and death threats, and conspiracy.

Hey, check out the wiki on Conspiracy as a crime. :thumbs:

So thanks for rambling on about how we shouldn't arrest people preemptively, because I guess it is their right to threaten other's lives (???).

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I'm liable to commit libel.

Yet another terrorist attack foiled by NOT THE PATRIOT ACT, NOT NSA WIRETAPPING and NOT SECRET TORTURE PRISONS.

Good thing you gave up your constitutional rights for that stuff. It's really paid off!

 

[Ome_Vince]

You must not be familiar with anything that makes sense, even remotely. :upstare: Unfortunately for you, apparantly, death threats and commiting conspiracy are not legal, even under freedom of speech. Doh!

Saying that you are going to kill someone is considered assault. It is a death threat. You can be arrested for that. Planning to kill someone is a very, very serious crime. Planning to blow a building up is also a very serious crime, so long as there is enough evidence to support it. Freedom of speech does not include funny things like liable, slander, hate speech and death threats, and conspiracy.

Hey, check out the wiki on Conspiracy as a crime. :thumbs:

So thanks for rambling on about how we shouldn't arrest people preemptively, because I guess it is their right to threaten other's lives (???).

hahaha, O Realy? -> alright let me explain to you a little bit about law. For everything you want to convict a person for, you need that tiny little thing called: PROOF..

And yes, i hope in the states you need proof to convict somebody too (hmm really? :upstare: ). Suspicion alone (luckily) is not enough..

And as for your "i must not be familiar with anything that makes sense, even remotely"

Thoughts and intentions cannot be punished, however. In other words, Samir Azzouz had only been in the initial stages of his planning and his views are a private matter. The problem here ( and the court ignores this completely ) is that such views can result in something very dangerous.

ONLY ENGLISH SOURCE I COULD FIND


EDIT: ANOTHER SOURCE FOUND

Cant find many english sources atm, but this was a big thing in Holland.
He had chemicals to make a bomb, he had blueprints, he had gun cartridges, was a friend of a terrorist who killed Theo van Gogh yet he STILL is set free,
since the court ignores this and needs proof.
So now you know i'm not basing this on "thin air". This was an actual relatively similar case in the Netherlands. So unless in the States you dont need proof to put people away, its going to be tough

So good luck FBI trying to jail these guys since from that article i could not find much hard evidence that could be used in court other than: "they tried to buy bombs off us".

So, convict them for trying to buy bombs, lol.
Like i said, wait until they actually bought the bombs, then you might have more. All it says is: "group were planning to target a federal building in Miami, and some FBI buildings, officials said." -> where is the proof for that?? (which was my first post asking what is the proof?, blueprints", telling other people they love Bin Laden? having a sketchbook with a crumbling tower? the Quran? Jihad posters? photographs?)..

 

[Sulkdodds]

Erestheux is right about assault laws - if I say "I'm going to kill you," that's assault - at least, if you can prove that you were actually scared. I have to put you in fear for your life and/or wellbeing.

No it is not entrapment. Entrapment is inducing someone to do something they are not already pre-disposed to do. If I pick up a prostitute and arrest her after she agrees to sex for money, that is not entrapment because she was already pre-disposed to do it.

Well, I was just wondering, but are you sure? I've seen a case over here where a man would repeatedly sneak into swimming pool changing cubicles with a manual drill and put holes in the sides through which he could watch other people undressing. The pool staff waited outside the cubicle and caught him red-handed, because they knew it was going on. But he got off, because it was entrapment.

/me shrugs

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Erestheux is right about assault laws - if I say "I'm going to kill you," that's assault - at least, if you can prove that you were actually scared.

Class D misdemeanor.

 

[bliink]

Class D misdemeanor.

Its also illegal in tort law, meaning one could bring a civil suit for it, so it could turn into $$$$$

 

[Yuri]

I'm liable to commit libel.

Mean ;(

It was late!

hahaha, O Realy? -> alright let me explain to you a little bit about law. For everything you want to convict a person for, you need that tiny little thing called: PROOF..

And yes, i hope in the states you need proof to convict somebody too (hmm really? ). Suspicion alone (luckily) is not enough..

And as for your "i must not be familiar with anything that makes sense, even remotely"

...so you're saying right now that you know all of the proof they have against these guys? What, are you in on the investigation? When did I say ANYTHING about proof, anyway, I am assuming there is enough proof to convict these guys for conspiracy, you are assuming there is not. But you are assuming there is not despite the fact that in the article, it states that an undercover operative posed as al Queda, and they attempted to buy weapons from him.

People are arrested for conpspiracy all the time. There are lots of cops who go undercover as hitmen who arrest people who hire them to kill someone. There are lots of cops that go undercover as drug dealers and arrest people that try to buy drugs from them. There are also cops who go undercover as al Queda terrorists and when someone tries to purchase weapons from them, they are all arrested.

Buying bombs is illegal. Do you not realize that is an ILLEGAL ACTIVITY? So when you try to buy weapons from an undercover cop, you get arrested. When they raid your hideout or whatever, and they find all this evidence that proves you were planning to blow a building up, you go to jail for a long time.

I can't say I have any idea why some random guy getting off in some random other country has anything to do with these terrorists. Congradulations you found some guy who should have been arrested but was not, in some country that is not the United States.

Maybe your idea of the law is that you have to follow through with the plans. Well, your idea of the law is stupid. So long as there is a lot of unquestionable proof that you were planning to bomb a building, you should be locked up. Just like when you try to buy drugs, just like when you hire a hitman.



As for your bit on shouting "I'll kill you all!" in a police station, which I didn't really mention but it doesn't have all that much to do with conspiracy, it is a death threat, and it is illegal. Its not your "freedom of speech" to shout that you want to kill someone. Even if it is a light crime, the civil suit is usually far more. And, conspiring to kill someone (something like... hiring a hitman) will land you in jail for many years.

 

[Element Alpha]

Buying bombs is illegal. Do you not realize that is an ILLEGAL ACTIVITY? So when you try to buy weapons from an undercover cop, you get arrested. When they raid your hideout or whatever, and they find all this evidence that proves you were planning to blow a building up, you go to jail for a long time.

I think we've got the finger on a big difference between US and European law here, which is causing quite a misunderstanding.

i.e. I know for a fact that police here in most European countries aren't aloud to sell drugs and use it (=the intention to buy it) as proof. It's called something like incitement or police incitement iirc.

So maybe there's a kind of grey area here?

 

[15357]

I think we've got the finger on a big difference between US and European law here, which is causing quite a misunderstanding.

i.e. I know for a fact that police here in most European countries aren't aloud to sell drugs and use it (=the intention to buy it) as proof. It's called something like incitement or police incitement iirc.

So maybe there's a kind of grey area here?

Yeah, this argument is due to the difference of laws, methinks.

 

[Ennui]

Narcotics agents are allowed to ingest and purchase illegal substances but not sell them. I don't think undercover agents are allowed to sell drugs.

 

[Yuri]

Narcotics agents are allowed to ingest and purchase illegal substances but not sell them. I don't think undercover agents are allowed to sell drugs.

Well, more often people are wired and buy drugs. The dealer is put in jail for selling them. That way they catch the sellers and not just the users.

 

[Hapless]

Narcotics agents are allowed to ingest and purchase illegal substances but not sell them. I don't think undercover agents are allowed to sell drugs.

I am a narcotics detective, and we are not allowed to ingest drugs. We are the only officers, besides the evidence officer, who are subject to random drug testing according to our labor contract. We can purchase and sell drugs, under several different investigative circumstances, but we can't use them. When we do sell or purchase them, it is a controlled buy or a controlled delivery. I think there was a time when narcs could use, but that was twenty years ago or more.