Feminists try to unJapify Japan

[smwScott]

Hahahahahaha

You ignorant twit.

Get the **** out of here.

Pardon me for suggesting that people who get off on raping mothers and underage girls might not be classiest sort. I forgot I was on a videogame forum.

Actually, if anything I was unnecessarily forgiving. This shit is disgusting and I would actively dissociate myself with anyone if I found out they used it, because it is extremely creepy and whats more it clearly shows a desire within the person to act out the compulsions portrayed in the porn (pedophilia, rape, whatever the **** else). It's god damned revolting.

On the other hand I didn't say it should be banned. I don't think anything should be banned unless it directly harms someone. If perverted mother ****ers are going to get off to this shit I'd much rather it be a videogame/cartoon than actual child porn (even though I could certainly see this being a stepping stone to more hardcore smut).

 

[Kyorisu]

Pardon me for suggesting that people who get off on raping mothers and underage girls might not be classiest sort. I forgot I was on a videogame forum.

I have a top hat for such occasions.

and whats more it clearly shows a desire within the person to act out the compulsions portrayed in the porn

I kill people in videogames, killing those people is very gratifying to me. However I have no inclination of any sort to go out and start murdering people. One of the reasons people play games is to escape from reality. You could start murdering people, raping mothers or throwing soccer balls at people to make them fall down, but I probably wouldn't do those things in light of the repercussions such actions would have. Now in a videogame you get to do these things that otherwise you couldn't do in reality. It's fantasy, nothing more.

 

[Omnomnick]

I heard this morning that Germany was going to ban violent video games because of a shooting. Why ban the games when you should just ban the bloody guns?

It's pretty stupid and so are those feminists. Mmm, Japan.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

Pardon me for suggesting that people who get off on raping mothers and underage girls might not be classiest sort. I forgot I was on a videogame forum.

Actually, if anything I was unnecessarily forgiving. This shit is disgusting and I would actively dissociate myself with anyone if I found out they used it, because it is extremely creepy and whats more it clearly shows a desire within the person to act out the compulsions portrayed in the porn (pedophilia, rape, whatever the **** else). It's god damned revolting.

On the other hand I didn't say it should be banned. I don't think anything should be banned unless it directly harms someone. If perverted mother ****ers are going to get off to this shit I'd much rather it be a videogame/cartoon than actual child porn (even though I could certainly see this being a stepping stone to more hardcore smut).

aw c'mon, nothing like a bit of rape simulation to top off a tiring day on the job. don't be a pessimistic percy.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Hahahahahaha

You ignorant twit.

Get the **** out of here.

This will never happen. I'm all for the removal of exploitative porn, but OH GOD THE PIXELS YOU HAVE DRAWN WILL CAUSE UNTOLD AMOUNTS OF CHILD RAPE AND PORNOGRAPHY is shitting retarded.

now
I'm QFTing this.
Did you see those damn statistics? Do you WANT 40x more rapists out there?

Here's the damn thing since you (smwscott) obviously didn't see it.

UN Statistics for 2000: Rapes per 100,000 people:
Canada 78.08 “Simple Possession”, Loli Manga Banned
Australia 77.79 “Simple Possession”, Loli Manga De Jure Banned
USA 32.05 “Simple Possession”, Loli Manga Banned (Constitutionally Invalid)
Sweden 24.47 “Simple Possession”, Loli Manga Banned
UK 16.23 “Simple Possession”, Loli Manga, BDSM to be Banned
France 14.36 “Simple Possession”
S. Korea 12.98 “Simple Possession”
Germany 9.12 “Simple Possession”
Russia 4.78
Taiwan 4.08
Japan 1.78 “Simple Possession” (Just introduced)

 

[smwScott]

I kill people in videogames, killing those people is very gratifying to me. However I have no inclination of any sort to go out and start murdering people. One of the reasons people play games is to escape from reality. You could start murdering people, raping mothers or throwing soccer balls at people to make them fall down, but I probably wouldn't do those things in light of the repercussions such actions would have. Now in a videogame you get to do these things that otherwise you couldn't do in reality. It's fantasy, nothing more.

Heh, apples and oranges.

Sexual desires and compulsions are a whole different bag than the kind of satisfaction gained from killing in video games or action movies, or even the sadism present in horror films. In addition to being entertaining tests of skill, they appeal to the desire for fear, suspense, and adrenaline present in virtually everyone.

Sexual perversions such as rape fantasies, incest, bestiality, and pedophilia that pervade much of Japanese porn are targeted to a much smaller (and creepier) demographic. My problem is that the abundance of this material feeds these desires and legitimizes them as bordering on mainstream. These perversions aren't just morally disturbing, but they are potentially very harmful to others. The presence of this material truly is disgusting.

The only possible defense I can see for this is that it provides an outlet for people to get off on this sick shit without actually acting on it, but research supporting this is fairly slim. For the most part indulging in desires merely strengthens the compulsion behind it and long-term exposure could desensitize the gratification effect, leading them to watch or do more and more to get off.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

The only drawback I see is on an already perfect society that has none of these things even in their mind. Since that's impossible, the outlet is required. And the fact that it's sex and not killing doesn't mean it's not applicable to the same kind of statistical tests. With violent video games, real world crime has dropped too. Your personal opinion on the material itself is a different matter entirely. If you don't like violent video games you shouldn't play them, does that mean you want to ban them and oppose the statistics showing how much better the world itself is as a result of it? There are people that do this, the people of this forum call them retards and idiots.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

The way you justify killing as being acceptable is ridiculous. Sticking a virtual penis into a virtual woman is no worse than sticking a virtual bullet into a virtual man and watching him scream and bleed and die.


And you know, here's a secret, it isn't just men that have rape fantasies. The point is that it is a fantasy. I've fantasised about rape before.
I think you're just showing your poor understanding of other people by assuming that they cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality. There are people who can't, but they are the exception and they're always going to cause problems no matter what you ban.

You're essentially trying to justify thought crime which is completely ridiculous.

 

[Vegeta897]

Farrow you can be in our smart club.

I think you're the best thing on this forum, presently.

 

[PvtRyan]

I'm gonna make a shooter with consensual killing. Although I think consensual murder is a bit creepy, like that German guy who killed another guy with consent and ate his penis.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

thought crime

Hmm...maybe he's a government agent!

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Farrow you can be in our smart club.

I think you're the best thing on this forum, presently.

Here's looking at you, kid.
Now take off your clothes.

 

[VirusType2]

Actually what Monkey is saying is that Virtual games/hentai 'teach' people to objectify women/girls soley as objects of lust instead of living, thinking human beings.

Right.

I've been looking at girls as living, thinking beings, and objects of lust since I was about 10 years old. Is there anyone who hasn't? So there is no reason they can't or shouldn't be seen as all of these things. And nobody taught me anything. This is built-in all of us.

The difference between lust and love is that lust is just strong sexual attraction. This is built into humans, at the very least, if not other species. An attractive mate is very desirable. Lust is not some aberration, it's natural.

If I'm imprisoned for drawing or possessing art of any kind, one that has no actual victim, it is truly a threat to the free world.


This is just another one of those stupid western things: Nipples bad, dead bodies good.

So long as she appears to be over 18 at the time of the virtual raping, then it's OK. Give me a break. Flipping morons!

I will guide a pen or pencil any way I please. (not that I draw this sort of thing, but if I wanted to, I reserve that right) You'll never take me alive, Copper.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

I'm shocked and appalled that so many of you consider rape and murder unjust acts. Clearly none of you like to have any fun.

This is just another one of those stupid western things: Nipples bad, dead bodies good.

hear, hear

Spoiler

 

[The Monkey]

Jimmy Carter was a lesbian.

 

[smwScott]

The way you justify killing as being acceptable is ridiculous. Sticking a virtual penis into a virtual woman is no worse than sticking a virtual bullet into a virtual man and watching him scream and bleed and die.


And you know, here's a secret, it isn't just men that have rape fantasies. The point is that it is a fantasy. I've fantasised about rape before.
I think you're just showing your poor understanding of other people by assuming that they cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality. There are people who can't, but they are the exception and they're always going to cause problems no matter what you ban.

You're essentially trying to justify thought crime which is completely ridiculous.

I've said (repeatedly) that I don't think this shit should be banned and I never even remotely hinted that I think people should prosecuted for watching it. Your thought crime reference is hyperbolic and silly ... you're just trying to over simplify the debate.

Like I said before, the type of thrill gained from violence and from sexual compulsions are entirely different from a psychological standpoint. The desire to experience fear, suspense, adrenaline, etc. are all part of the reason that violent video games are successful and are all perfectly natural. I even went further to state that the sadism present in horror films isn't even particularly objectionable, as it exploits people's fears as opposed to enjoyable compulsions (for most people at least).

Indulging in any kind of sexual desire strengthens a persons proclivity for that desire. You have to get out of this stubborn mindset that the kind of enjoyment garnered from films/games is the same kind rendered from sexual satisfaction. Porn is merely a tool for masturbation, which directly feeds sexual compulsions. Indulging in these desires does strengthen them, and when these desires include rape and pedophilia then there certainly is an issue.

Citing statistics comparing rape stats of countries where this stuff is banned and where it isn't is just willful ignorance. Everyone is aware (hopefully) that the impact this shit has on the larger market is negligible and there are far greater cultural factors at play than creepy Jap porn. Those stats are irrelevant.

Also, this debate would never exist anywhere but on the internet, and particularly in a videogame forum. Just try defending your rape, pedophilia, incest, bestiality filled cartoon porn to a random person. It's very disturbing how accepted this shit is on here.

 

[Vegeta897]

Also, this debate would never exist anywhere but on the internet, and particularly in a videogame forum. Just try defending your rape, pedophilia, incest, bestiality filled cartoon porn to a random person. It's very disturbing how accepted this shit is on here.

This is such a perfect setup to say something really intelligent in reply, but I am not powerful enough to do so.

What I can say is that the internet is unlike any other place in that you have all kinds of people who are willing to share parts of themselves that they are too afraid to share with other people because of ignorance and fear of not being accepted. HL2.net is a place where people like me and ka and others have made stands to fight down ignorance and senseless hate. You're trying to say that this is a bad thing because people are more intolerant IRL. That's just backwards and ****ing stupid.

How in the hell does pointing out that defending those things in front of ignorant people would be hard to do help your argument in the least?

The internet is a great tool for progressive thinking. Think of things like the furry fandom, that would never be possible without the internet, anonymity making people more comfortable with sharing who they are and easing into accepting themselves and being more and more open about it.

What you're saying is that we're wrong because people in real life aren't as accepting as people on the internet. That makes no ****ing sense.

 

[Naph]

To ban a certain arrangement of coloured pixels, pretty much. Why not ban pixels, those things are the real criminals; allowing people to see what they form. :frown:

 

[kineaesth]

Porn is merely a tool for masturbation, which directly feeds sexual compulsions.

A resounding WUT for you sir.

How does jerkin' your gherkin feed sexual compulsion? Most people would see masturbation as a form of release, and masturbating to a particular fantasy that could be considered unsafe, illegal or just unattainable seems perfectly legitimate. You can't do it, you've accepted that you can't, so you will just fap about/to it.

Unless you're suggesting that masturbation leads to sexual addiction? Which it does, but usually to a sexual addiction centered around masturbating.

 

[smwScott]

This is such a perfect setup to say something really intelligent in reply, but I am not powerful enough to do so.

What I can say is that the internet is unlike any other place in that you have all kinds of people who are willing to share parts of themselves that they are too afraid to share with other people because of ignorance and fear of not being accepted. HL2.net is a place where people like me and ka and others have made stands to fight down ignorance and senseless hate. You're trying to say that this is a bad thing because people are more intolerant IRL. That's just backwards and ****ing stupid.

How in the hell does pointing out that defending those things in front of ignorant people would be hard to do help your argument in the least?

The internet is a great tool for progressive thinking. Think of things like the furry fandom, that would never be possible without the internet, anonymity making people more comfortable with sharing who they are and easing into accepting themselves and being more and more open about it.

What you're saying is that we're wrong because people in real life aren't as accepting as people on the internet. That makes no ****ing sense.

You picked the weakest, most tertiary and inconsequential part of my post ... simplified it ... and then argued against it, completely and utterly ignoring the main point. Then again that's all anyone ever does on here anyway so I don't know why I bother.

But whatever, I'll address what you said. My point wasn't about tolerance, but rather indulging in these fantasies and secluding one's self to specific sub cultures results in losing sight of what is considered normal. By constantly reinforcing behavior such as rape and pedophilia, it is granted legitimacy and people soon forget the real nature of these acts. Someone reacting disgustedly to RAPE porn isn't intolerance, but rather rationality. Some social standards exist for a reason, and if this shit were more socially accepted then you would see a large shift in social norms for the negative. And yes, by that I mean more rape and pedophilia. I was trying to bring in perspective to this debate because this incredibly extreme, outlandish shit is treated in such a shockingly casual manner. You have desensitized yourself to it, which ties into my earlier points.

A resounding WUT for you sir.

How does jerkin' your gherkin feed sexual compulsion? Most people would see masturbation as a form of release, and masturbating to a particular fantasy that could be considered unsafe, illegal or just unattainable seems perfectly legitimate. You can't do it, you've accepted that you can't, so you will just fap about/to it.

Unless you're suggesting that masturbation leads to sexual addiction? Which it does, but usually to a sexual addiction centered around masturbating.

At least you responded to the core of my point. I said that indulging in fantasies (ie., watching/playing rape porn and masturbating to it) feeds the desire for those fantasies. This increases over time. It doesn't lead to sexual addiction so much as sexual fixation on a particular fetish or perversion. When that perversion is harmful to others, there is a very real problem.

Of course the vast majority of people who do indulge in this shit don't act on it later. However, it still feeds that desire and clearly isn't the healthiest way to release. If such perversions were treated similarly casually by the mainstream then you would have a shift in the public consciousness towards this type of behavior. So yes, I'm saying that in this particular instance feminists may have a point - but I don't agree with banning anything (though if I did this shit would be towards the top of the list).

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Like I said before, the type of thrill gained from violence and from sexual compulsions are entirely different from a psychological standpoint.

I remember a Penn and Teller Bullshit episode (Anger Management). They had a guy punch some stuff to let loose his steam and he replied that he felt satisfied. Then some doc explained that it reinforced his like of it and that he will want to lash out again. Violence and Sex work the same way as do all indulgences, you do it, you like it, you do it more. So unless you've got a background in psychology and can explain that, I'm calling bullshit.

 

[15357]

now
I'm QFTing this.
Did you see those damn statistics? Do you WANT 40x more rapists out there?

Here's the damn thing since you (smwscott) obviously didn't see it.

That is too damned high. We need to start introducing RFIDs and shock collars for rapists.




Anyway, I firmly believe that Japan should have the whole ****ed up rape thing, because it gives me one more reason to slam Japan.

 

[Rurisu]

Anyway, I firmly believe that Japan should have the whole ****ed up rape thing, because it gives me one more reason to slam Japan.

And one more reason for Japan to laugh back at you, what given that its actual rape is a whole order of magnitude less than yours (assuming Korea in your location is accurate) and a whole lot less than the US.

Perhaps its wrong, perhaps its disgusting, everyone's entitled to their opinion after all. Either way, the numbers/studies indicate it's helping the common good, not hindering.

 

[Kyorisu]

Heh, apples and oranges.

Err no. We have serial rapists and serial murderers. Violent and Sexual acts effectively trigger the same response in the brain [citation needed].

You're trying to argue virtual sexual acts are somehow different from virtual violent acts which is just silly. There's been plenty of studies that can't prove one way or the other that any additiction to violent or sexual acts in a videogame would cause a person to want to commit those acts in reality. In fact there are works that say the virtual act will cause less of a desire to perform the action in reality.

 

[Jintor]

But whatever, I'll address what you said. My point wasn't about tolerance, but rather indulging in these fantasies and secluding one's self to specific sub cultures results in losing sight of what is considered normal. By constantly reinforcing behavior such as rape and pedophilia, it is granted legitimacy and people soon forget the real nature of these acts. Someone reacting disgustedly to RAPE porn isn't intolerance, but rather rationality. Some social standards exist for a reason, and if this shit were more socially accepted then you would see a large shift in social norms for the negative. And yes, by that I mean more rape and pedophilia. I was trying to bring in perspective to this debate because this incredibly extreme, outlandish shit is treated in such a shockingly casual manner. You have desensitized yourself to it, which ties into my earlier points.

I can't help but feel that in this arguement you are both correct and wrong at the same time. The main thrust of your arguement here is that 'the community (the internet, HL2.net specifically) that you are engaged in has a very tolerant attitude towards rape/pedophilia', which is incorrect; this community has a very tolerant attitude towards the ficticious depiction of rape/pedophilia', which is a subtle but striking difference. If we were to be talking about the possibility constant reinforcement of behaviour such as rape and pedophilia, then perhaps it would be granted legitimacy; but by and large the nature even of groups such as this, even in this kind of community, shun actual rape and pedophilia (re: anon).

tl;dr You're talking about this as if we were attempting to legitimise actual rape/pedoness because we are within a circlejerking community but even that kind of circlejerking community recognizes the true/damaging nature of these actions.

/EDIT Also if what you are saying is true Japan would likely be a hotbed of sex crimes.

 

[Robert-]

How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?

NONE! Feminists can't change anything.

 

[The Monkey]

What was the last thing said on the speaker system on Titanic?



"The bar closes now, but the hull is open all night."

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Heh ... I'm all for freedom of speech but it takes some pervy, creepy mother ****ers to get off on that shit.

Enter Japan...

And to think this would never of happened if the United States didn't alienate Japan after WW1

http://www.theamericancause.org/patwhydidjapan.htm

 

[Kyorisu]

Oh yeah haven't seen this link yet.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Oh wow India beat Japan in terms of that particular rate. Didn't see that coming, though considering the total population size it's rather...meh. What about China?

 

[PvtRyan]

Oh yeah haven't seen this link yet.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

DEFINITION: Total recorded rapes. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population.

It's not really much of an indication as to the number of rapes, just a figure of how many are reported. And considering Japan has a culture where honor is highly regarded, couldn't that figure just as well mean that in Japan someone is less likely to report rape due to shame?

 

[Jintor]

A lot of crimes in Japan aren't reported thanks to the social stigma. You've got a point.

(I glean this information from a report about the 80s - 00s social sensation of institutionalised bullying in Japanese schools, but I'm willing to bet money that it would be applicable to sexual assault/other crimes as well)

 

[Wanted Bob]

All you can draw from those stats is that legal Loli Manga has no effect on the amount of rapists. The amount of rapists could be due to some completely irrelevant factors.

 

[VirusType2]

Rape is horrible, murder is much worse. So I don't see what swScott is going on about.

Anyone capable of either has got serious mental issues. Viewing or drawing cartoons depicting either is not going to be the thing that makes them do it.

Just like getting your aggressions out by playing a fighting game, or a game where killing people is rewarded, one could also get their aggression out by viewing or creating cartoon or animated rape.

And make no mistake, rape is almost always an act of violence, just like killing someone is.

I don't understand why forcing someone to have sex is viewed as the worst kind of monstrosity, but for some reason killing people is glorified.

And you talk about desensitized to rape, but has it occurred to you that you are desensitized to killing? And you'd have to be if you think that rape is worse than murder.

And by the way, this killing in games is a hell of a lot more life-like than the cartoons on the web.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

A lot of crimes in Japan aren't reported thanks to the social stigma. You've got a point.

Certainly, but I suppose what we need is how much bias on the statistics that causes. I would still think it's not that much more.

 

[Jintor]

Certainly, but I suppose what we need is how much bias on the statistics that causes. I would still think it's not that much more.

You would be surprised... I can easily see a fairly significant difference between 'crimes reported' and 'crimes committed'. Remember, take into account Japanese culture...

 

[Rurisu]

A lot of crimes in Japan aren't reported thanks to the social stigma. You've got a point.

Oh please. A lot of crimes anywhere aren't reported due to social stigma. The difference in the rate of reported between JP and the rest of the [developed] world is likely negligible. Given you're not in Japan, its quite easy to take the stereotypes like 'honour' and thus assume the rates must be lower. Sexual crimes/misconduct here are reported a lot, not to mention over the tiniest of infractions. Like say a middle aged man saying 'good morning' to a school girl as they passed each other on the street, true story.

Please don't try to get caught in the trap of 'but its their culture...'. Its a terrible basis for making assumptions, as are all stereotypes.

You would be surprised... I can easily see a fairly significant difference between 'crimes reported' and 'crimes committed'.

Yeah, I see plenty of that in Australia too (note: AU is where I'm originally from).

 

[DEATHMASTER]

It sounds like you've been hearing the opposite results of the stereotype on the news there?

 

[15357]

And one more reason for Japan to laugh back at you, what given that its actual rape is a whole order of magnitude less than yours (assuming Korea in your location is accurate) and a whole lot less than the US.

Damn it. :angry:

Perhaps its wrong, perhaps its disgusting, everyone's entitled to their opinion after all. Either way, the numbers/studies indicate it's helping the common good, not hindering.

The numbers don't indicate anything. It would be an awesomely wrong mistake to infer causation of the 2 variables; rape/crime VS Japanese...... things.

 

[Rurisu]

The numbers don't indicate anything. It would be an awesomely wrong mistake to infer causation of the 2 variables; rape/crime VS Japanese...... things.

Quite right, correlation != causation. Still the correlation alone is interesting. But as you point out, 'interesting' is all it is.

Though there's likely other social factors that correlate more. Sex isn't as taboo here as it is in other developed nations. While out shopping, in a [normal] bookstore, in a convenience store, etc, I often see posters / advertisements / magazine covers, in plain view of all that would be considered an outrage due to their adult content (at least back in Aus, I can just picture all the old prudes screaming how indecent it is ).