Gabe Newell: "Most DRM Strategies Are Just Dumb"

DigiQ8

DigiQ8

Tank
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Messages
5,955
Reaction score
0
A gamer by the name of Paul Reisinger emailed Gabe Newell about the company's stance on DRM, and Mr.Newell replied:

Left 4 Dead is developed entirely by Valve. Steam revenue for our games is not shared with third parties. Around the world we have a number of distribution partners to handle retail distribution of our games (i.e. make discs and boxes). EA is one of those partners.[br]

As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't).[br]

We really really discourage other developers and publishes from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.
Click to expand...
 
Steam really makes me think about buying games like Tomb Raider and PoP, whereas if Steam didn't exist, I almost certainly wouldn't purchase those games.
 
Shows you the state of things when an important developer needs to stand up and state the obvious.

But its good to hear that Valve have no intention of ruining an otherwise perfect solid service.
 
Gabe said:
As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't).

We really really discourage other developers and publishes from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.
Click to expand...
Bang on the money as always.

I am a complete fanatic when it comes to demanding my due respect as a consumer - that is, if a company acts as if I'll buy their stuff no matter how they treat me then IMO that's tantamount to pissing in my eye. As such, I HATED Steam with a fury when it was in its infancy. All it really appeared to offer back then was a 2 hour install time for HL2 and the outrageous idea that a developer could 'cancel' your purchases if they wanted to. As time passed my attitude grew to 'tolerance' and then swelled to 'affection', so you can tell that Gabe's idea of 'added value' has really held true if it can win over someone like me. Steam now has tons of features; it's an IM client, an easy means of accessing your purchased games and an online store, even if there are negatives such as the store offering less and less value nowadays, and the patching system occasionally forcing broken updates on the entire userbase.

Compared to SecuROM et al, which really offer nothing but potential negatives - disabled drives, software conflicts, extra running processes, awkwardness or impossibility of uninstall, sense of being treated like a miscreant, the notion that pirates possess a superior version of the game - there really is no contest.

In fact it's almost as if Valve should stipulate to developers that any games available via Steam should NOT possess extra DRM. At least it's good to hear an insider like Gabe say that shitty DRM is losing favour - but I'm unsure whether that means that devs are abandoning them altogether, or whether SonyDADC/SecuROM are developing a measure that is only slightly less offensive/conspicuous and they're all still just going to buy that.
 
Very interesting. As you've all said it's good to hear someone being a spokesman saying how shit DRM really is. I have to say I used to hate the steam service also but with all of the features it provided it just keeps getting better.

I'd have to say, I would like a way to be able to sell or give games away that you brought using Steam. Oh and probably more variety on the store but that comes with time.
 
Steam is absolutely the way to go. Almost all of my game purchases as of late have been on steam. Its convenient, i get my games right away without leaving home. The prices are good (at least from a Norwegian standpoint). Having all games in one UI, tied to my account insures that i always have the games i cant loose the discs etc. I dont have to find the disk and put it in the drive to start my games, Great communtiy features, easy patching etc etc.

Steam is the definite future of PC-gaming, and the more developers out there discovering this the better. I hope valve keeps up the great work of catering to other developers, and letting them use all the features and benefits of the steam platform in their games.

I hope in the future we will see better support for the steam platform in 3rd party games. I would love for features like; Server browser in the steam client, and joining games my friends are playing to work on games like COD4 etc....

Also i think would be nice if the steam client UI was more customizable and had a bit more shine to it. The simplistic style of today would remain an option, of course, but i would love for instance to see support for:

1. Different ways to view games like; larger icons, boxshots, extended info like in the vista game browser etc etc.
2. Also an UI that was either freeform skinnable or atleast supported using OS UI look would be cool i think.
3. Clean and effective tabbed interface in compliance with established UI conventions. (For instance tabbed interface.) (Could be accomplished by utilizing 2.)

... yes, i am a UI nutcase. :p
 
All we need is Gabe up in this bitch for this thread to be complete.





/me slays 10 newbies to summon the spirit of Gabe
 
Erm... a lot of Steam games keep their original "dumb" DRM strategies. Enough talking. We want facts.
 
Only Reason Gabe says this is because he has the convenience of a DRM method that doesn't piss off too many people.
 
Didnt expect anything less from Valve.
 
Pesmerga said:
Steam really makes me think about buying games like Tomb Raider and PoP, whereas if Steam didn't exist, I almost certainly wouldn't purchase those games.
Click to expand...
I agree but I can't help but feel slightly that this tendency to buy games is partly because it's so damn easy. Do the payment thing, click download (and you know the download will be relatively fast and reliable) and then play. You don't have to leave your chair if you don't want to. It's all too tempting.
 
PaoloM said:
No dumb DRM strategies on Steam. You can't criticize something if you are actually selling it.
Click to expand...

So you'd rather the games not be on Steam in the first place?

That's probably the deal Valve made with other developers; they can put it up IF and only IF they keep the copy protection and the other stuff that Valve doesn't necessarily approve of, but would rather put the game up with a warning rather than not have it there at all.
 
Kinslayer said:
So you'd rather the games not be on Steam in the first place?

That's probably the deal Valve made with other developers; they can put it up IF and only IF they keep the copy protection and the other stuff that Valve doesn't necessarily approve of, but would rather put the game up with a warning rather than not have it there at all.
Click to expand...

Since Valve agrees to have games with dumb DRM, criticizing them is a kind of pointless, don't you think?
 
No. It would be dumb if they sold their games with SecuROM then criticised it.
 
PaoloM said:
No dumb DRM strategies on Steam. You can't criticize something if you are actually selling it.
Click to expand...

Again, what facts?

Steam distributes the titles. They do not dictate how a developer needs to design their game or protect it. And Valve's not going to bar shit hot games from coming on their distribution platform to make some point out of it..

It is ultimately the consumer's decision if they want to purchase the title and put up with its DRM, aside from instances where the publisher is misleading or underhanded as to what it entails. Plenty of people still buy games with Securom on the PC. Why the hell would Valve deny its distribution on Steam? To make some dumb point?
 
I'm not enlightened on what DRM is, could someone tell it to me in a simplified way and why its bad? The wikipedia article is far to obscure for my laziness...
 
DRM is a bad monster who makes gamers life a hell. It severly tries to limit the piracy on PC. With means like needed online verification, certain install count etc.
 
Absinthe said:
Steam distributes the titles. They do not dictate how a developer needs to design their game or protect it. And Valve's not going to bar shit hot games from coming on their distribution platform to make some point out of it..
Click to expand...

Warning: cigarettes are bad for your health. Oh, well, I sell them too, you know, money is money. But they are still bad for your health.

Absinthe said:
Why the hell would Valve deny its distribution on Steam? To make some dumb point?
Click to expand...

If you are making money with something you criticize... well, this is hypocrisy. Gabe hates DRM? OK, then he (Valve) should state that if you want your game on Steam, it must be DRM free. All the rest is only pointless nice-talking.
 
el Chi said:
I agree but I can't help but feel slightly that this tendency to buy games is partly because it's so damn easy. Do the payment thing, click download (and you know the download will be relatively fast and reliable) and then play. You don't have to leave your chair if you don't want to. It's all too tempting.
Click to expand...

I'd say that's almost entirely why I'm tempted to buy those games. In fact, if I had the money, I definitely would.
 
PaoloM said:
Warning: cigarettes are bad for your health. Oh, well, I sell them too, you know, money is money. But they are still bad for your health.
Click to expand...

I assume you sell them because people want them regardless of their health effects.

If you are making money with something you criticize... well, this is hypocrisy. Gabe hates DRM? OK, then he (Valve) should state that if you want your game on Steam, it must be DRM free. All the rest is only pointless nice-talking.
Click to expand...

No, it would be hypocritical if Valve had the kind of piss-on-your-face DRM methods other companies employ and still criticized it.

We have to draw the distinction between Valve the developer and their Steam platform. Their personal ethics on such matters are not going to bleed over into a platform that they want to be the bulwark in online distributing of titles from publishers and developers across the world. They want to give their users the ability to purchase numerous games through this service. When you start putting your foot down on other peoples' games you want on your platform, you are shooting yourself in the foot and you are denying Steam users the ability to purchase what they want.

Again, Valve has said they do not want to function as "gatekeepers". Crap will exist on Steam because it already exists in the market. Valve may not like DRM as it is currently known and reviled, but they're not going to step in and make a decision for you. If you don't like DRM-ed games on Steam, then don't buy them. Others either don't mind or don't care and will be more than happy to buy them any way.

Valve likes to make excellent games as well, but that doesn't mean they bar mediocre or crap titles from coming onto Steam. It's ultimately a platform of convenience, but they can't (and don't) want to stop you from buying shit.
 
I think since Steam is one of the most popular platforms for releasing games, most developers would drop the DRM if they were forced to.

Comparing DRM to game quality is ridiculous, Absinthe. Dropping DRM from your game is easy while making a better games takes, well, you see what I'm saying.

I think if Valve made a big enough statement and people were more, as a group, against DRM, Steam could help remove the DRM trend by enforcing it. Companies would realize their games would do better DRM free on Steam than with DRM retail.

Just a possibility though, but my point is that you shouldn't so quickly pass off a boycott like that as "proving some dumb point"
 
Or more companies will just redirect their work towards consoles. Now that may be dependent more on Steam sales of these games than anything, but then I haven't seen any official records of what such numbers may be. So I'm not entirely sure what a more forceful approach from Valve would result in.

I think Valve sees no reason to intervene not only for aforementioned reasons, but also recognizes that as other publishers pump out more and more ludicrous schemes, they look more attractive in comparison. And when these schemes flop, their alternative solution will look all the more enticing. I just don't think they want to risk or even bother with trying to strongarm anybody because it's only a matter of time until they come around.
 
I like Gabe. But come on, the guy that put out steam, one giant DRM application, and is now saying that DRM is stupid? A little ironic, no?
 
Having some reading comprehension problems?

As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't).
Click to expand...
 
Yea, Gabe, is not criticizing all DRM, hes just against DRM approaches that result in awful user experiences and makes pirated games more easy.

In my mind what STEAM actually proves, its not that DRM is stupid but rather that DRM can actually work, and give value to the customer instead of making them feel used and abused.

Steam kinda emphasizes on the "Rights" part, and gives you access and rights to download and use the games from your account anywhere, any time. And this is a huge step up from the DRM that forces you to only X number of installs on one single computer.

They have turned DRM into a benefit, rather then complete BS.
 
Eejit said:
Having some reading comprehension problems?
Click to expand...

My apologies, so Gabe is only criticizing DRM that doesn't come from Valve? That makes it much better. :rolleyes:

Dipso, you still need to have the internet to activate a game on steam. I don't really see how steam is any different from other DRM solutions out there. So in that sense I think Gabe is being a little hypocritical in this regard.
 
I don't trust Steam and wouldn't want to have most of my game library be dependent on it(or: any singleplayer game really), however it's a way better type of "DRM" than the draconian systems EA would gladly impose upon us. Besides, Steam has benefits too.
 
No Limit said:
My apologies, so Gabe is only criticizing DRM that doesn't come from Valve? That makes it much better. :rolleyes:

Dipso, you still need to have the internet to activate a game on steam. I don't really see how steam is any different from other DRM solutions out there. So in that sense I think Gabe is being a little hypocritical in this regard.
Click to expand...

DRM is in place to prevent little Billy from making copies of his disk for Joe and Sally and Bob and Jimmy. Requiring the internet for games purchased over the internet isn't silly at all. There are alternatives (eg. activating by phone) when you buy a retail game.

I definitely understand the loathing that all DRM receives, but seriously, steam is far, far better than most of the alternatives. Three activations and then your game is toast? I know someone who installed Spore on his computer, play it for a bit, format and reinstall, then upgrade his motherboard, then finally upgrade his CPU. This used up his three activations and the game stopped working. He spent three weeks contacting Maxis to fix the problem before he gave up and threw the game out.

That is one kind of DRM Gabe is referring to.

Oh, and this is what DRM is there to prevent.
 
DigitalAssassin said:
Oh, and this is what DRM is there to prevent.
Click to expand...
It's there to prevent what...? Developers pulling lost sales figures out of their arses...?
the article said:
At one point, the network's technology correspondent Alfred Hermida counted 50,000 peer-to-peer users downloading the 1.5 GB game--$2,749,500 worth of software at Doom 3's $54.99 sticker price. Other reports put the figure between 30,000 and 20,000--$1,649,700 and $1,099,800 of software, respectively.

Whichever figures are accurate, it is clear the piracy of Doom 3 is costing developer id Software and publisher Activision millions of dollars.
Click to expand...
After having their gaming experience spoiled by inhibitive anti-piracy measures, hearing the above kind of nonsense logic as a justification for DRM is enough to make many legitimate customers even less sympathetic. Only a moron or someone completely dishonest would try to convince you that the piracy:lost sales ratio is anything close to 1:1. Indeed, the few concrete attempts to unravel piracy's impact on sales seem to show that a large scale piracy reduction produces little more than a completely insignificant increase in sales (eg. Reflexive's experience with Ricochet). Missing out on a profit that is very unlikely to have existed anyway does not mean you have been 'cost' anything, never mind 'millions' for a single game.

I know you probably linked to that story as an example of rampant pre-release piracy, but it serves more pertinently IMO as an example of the industry's wrongheaded thinking/blind greed.
 
Alas, Steam is theoretically valid, but reality is harsh: the Steam version of X3:Terran Conflict has a 5 machine activation limit, while retail doesn't require activaction at all. In this case, retail is better than Steam. I know, it's not Valve's fault, ok, but this is an example of how Steam cannot be taken as an ideal DRM scheme. It all depends from the games and the publishers. If the owner of the digital platform (Gabe/Valve) doesn't enforce a policy, we all know that Steam will not stop 3rd party DRM.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

B
From Warren Spector to Arkane Studios: Half-Life 2's cancelled Ravenholm episode
Replies
2
Views
10K
Clan Wolf 2
Clan Wolf 2
B
Barking Dog Studios' work for Valve
Replies
0
Views
12K
Barnz
B
B
Half-Life's lost feature, Timeline
Replies
0
Views
6K
Barnz
B
B
Gabe Newell's AMA summary (January 17, 2017)
Replies
1
Views
24K
Gerzowktz
Gerzowktz
MFL
Fascinating look at the ongoing psychological evolution of flat hieirarchies.
Replies
2
Views
2K
Tollbooth Willie
Tollbooth Willie
Back
Top