Gabe: "Our Customers will be PISSED"

[mjrhzrd]

For those who still don't get it. It is just not the card, it is the overall fiasco that Valve has created. Valve is simply not the Valve of 1998-2002. It is no longer so much about the game. It has become all about the bottom line and little else.

And I guess the PC /Multiplayer gaming community as a whole has changed. I guess we have to expect less when we expected more in 1998-2002 time frame. Valve was the last holdout, I suppose. 3D Realms is a joke, "It is done when it is done". ID is chasing its tail. and Valve is playing the PR thing like the Republicans/Democrats in an election year. Really read some of the stuff Valve recklessly said before the delay and when it did a 360, then what it has very carefully said. That is probably when they changed PR people.

I will be awfully surprised if MP doesn't become pay to play eventually.

The PC gaming industry as a whole is in trouble and it doesn't know why. As Dorvak said many software developers "Just don't get it" Maybe the gaming community as a whole just doesn't get it... We definitely need an injection of the next level of gaming. It was not done, probably only at the stage of baking a cake where it is just starting to rise.

Some folks like and enjoy Gamespy. Whatever floats your boat. Ever take a look at all the hidden processes that are running after you let them "take over your PC" I reloaded my O/S last year after my step son did the Gamespy "install" on my system after he did his. It comes close to falling into both the bot category and the trojan category. Kazaa is only slight less a security threat. It is one big commercial. Someone is making some BIG money there. Gamespy will be the Microsoft of the gaming community soon.

I guess I expected more from Valve, to steer away from where the industry as a whole is headed.

Just look at the cynicism on all gaming forums not just HL2, compared to this time last year and then the year before that and you may "get it"

The Major

 

[Shuzer]

I will be awfully surprised if MP doesn't become pay to play eventually.

This will never happen with HL2. Servers are run by the community, they pay the costs to maintain a working HLDS server. P2P would make no sense and VALVe would go under.


As for Gamespy browser, everyone knows it's full of spyware and is a piece of crap

 

[Mountain Man]

These were benchmarks done this year (2004).
Valve didn't say "Buy ATI".
The performance did.
1024x768 (AF)
1280x1024 (AF)
1600x1200 (AF)
1024x768 (AF+AA)

Um, what Half-Life 2 "beta" are these tests using, exactly?

That said, the performance differences between cards is slight. At 1024x786, the high-end cards are seperated by no more than 15 frames per second with ATi enjoying a slight lead while the mid-range cards are neck in neck.

 

[BritSavant]

Guess what Gabe, Many of your customers are PISSED..... :flame:

Oh...like the flaming angry face is really going to make a difference.

 

[The Mullinator]

rofl! Pay to play? I severly doubt that. You have any idea how many people will stop playing multiplayer if that happens, if like you say its just about the bottom line for Valve then maybe you should just think about the huge plummit in sales that a pay to play system would create.

Way too many people are just over reacting here. I also have no idea where you got this idea that Valve has suddenly changed their business so that it is now just about the bottom line, maybe its because so little has been revealed about the game, or maybe its just because Valve is always very secretive. The fact is if it was all about the bottom line then Valve would simply have released a sequel without giving so much thought into quality, the fact that they have spent 5 years working on making a legendary, and utterly incredible game is proof enough that they aren't just interested in the bottom line.

 

[Wilco]

Valve released official benchmarks, that weren't done off a leaked beta build, I don't know if they are them or not.

There are quite a lot of people who pay 2 play Look around, gaming companies are going bust left right and centre. The biggest GSP in the UK, Bygames, stopped a while ago. The current business model just doesn't work. P2P might result in a lot less people playing the game, but it will probably turn a profit for the server suppliers, so thats what will happen.

Back to Valve, i have to agree why are people getting so mad at them. It's obviously because it's such a big game, there can't be another reason. I've been watching the development of many games, and they have been delayed over a year, and haven't had the excuse of a code theft. Many also stringently claim release dates right up until the last moment, but you don't get loads of irate people on their forums. This delay will obviously cost more to Valve in more wages etc than they will gain through increased revenue, having missed out on the christmas buying period, all delays from now on are costing money, so its not about profit.

Gamespy spyware, probably, I use ASE, Steam has a built browser, I can't see where that came from .

There will always be free places to play, and people who want this, usually kids with no income(I don't mean kids as in "immature", as in young ) and so this option isn't really viable, but I personally want peace of mind when it comes to ping, I want to play games with a bunch of decent people, who I can talk to during a game, I know cheaters will be dealt with, and there is a community, usually and IRC channel I can hang out in, etc. I don't mind paying for this, I support my CS Clan's Clanserver, and I only play on that once a week, but its great fun with Voice Comms.

 

[PvtRyan]

Um, what Half-Life 2 "beta" are these tests using, exactly?

That said, the performance differences between cards is slight. At 1024x786, the high-end cards are seperated by no more than 15 frames per second with ATi enjoying a slight lead while the mid-range cards are neck in neck.

But as far as I know (so correct me if I'm wrong) the leak showed no PS2.0 specific shaders, only 1.1 and 1.3. And 2.0 is where the FX has it's weak point.

 

[Mountain Man]

But as far as I know (so correct me if I'm wrong) the leak showed no PS2.0 specific shaders, only 1.1 and 1.3. And 2.0 is where the FX has it's weak point.

Since we know nothing about the software used to conduct these tests, it is impossible to draw meaningful conclussions.

 

[Shuzer]

But as far as I know (so correct me if I'm wrong) the leak showed no PS2.0 specific shaders, only 1.1 and 1.3. And 2.0 is where the FX has it's weak point.

I saw plenty of PS 2.0 specific shaders on my run through.. well, not a whole lot, but they're definitely there

 

[Styloid]

OH NO!!!! small, independent mod developers/artists are going to make BIG MONEY off of STEAM!!!!! THAT MAKES ME SO ANGRY!!!!!!

yes sarcasm is annoying.. so is exaggeration.

 

[jet jaguar]

P2P has already been established by Microsoft with Xbox Live. The 'optimized' XBL network is bull since it lags just like any other network does. I can personally do without score keeping and record keeping, just not a big deal for me. Steam is perfectly designed for P2P, hell, Gabe practically stated that in previous interviews. BTW, Steam as a distribution model to help small independents sell their products without middlemen isn't the problem with Steam. It's annoying stuff like lack of control on the user's part(since Steam is supposed to automatically update games and make sure they match the 'official' version) and lack of offline options that's ticking people off. Add the probability that Steam is a huge reason for HL2's delayed release and it's easy to see why some people hate it.

 

[Asus]

Um, what Half-Life 2 "beta" are these tests using, exactly?

That said, the performance differences between cards is slight. At 1024x786, the high-end cards are seperated by no more than 15 frames per second with ATi enjoying a slight lead while the mid-range cards are neck in neck.

From what I can see it was just a demo recorded from the stolen HL2 build and then played back. They probably used FRAPs or something to get the framerate.

Two things to note:
1) HL2 is aimed at the 9600 pro so that would explain the performance difference between a 9600 and a 9800.
2)9600XT matchs or beats the 5950 in HL2 which is a heavy DX9 shader game.

 

[Chode]

Valve never forced us to buy XT's. But Gabe through many methods indicated that this would look BEST on the XT generation of Radeons. Now, developers need a good public relations, which comes from trust. Romero lost trust after Daikatana flopped, for example, and his reputation still is low. Other developers have a strong reputation for quality, Carmack and Spector for example.

Now, people invested the money into the XT's because, well, people buy into the hype when it comes straight from the lead developers mouth. It became a sort of unmentioned bargain.... "Buy this card, and you get the game looking prettiest". By the time this summer comes, ATI will have released their next card, which will run the game even better and perhaps even more prettier. Will Gabe be telling us to buy the new cards then instead?

/end of rant

 

[Skumball]

I honestly don't believe that Valve will add so much to the game that it will have a huge impact on framerates or visual quality compared to the game that would have been released on Sept 30th 2003. For them that would be career suicide, although I'm sure they would recover. I think the core game will be kept virtually the same, with code changes under the hood to make it differ enough from the original so hackers won't have an easy life.

I'm sure those with GF2, GF3, GF4, 9600, 9800, 9800pro & 9800XT and whoever else I forgot to mention that Valve said would work fine, will still be able to play HL2 with solid framerates.

 

[[MLB]Loser]

I'm going to continue on my current track of building the system below in two weeks. My guess is also that in five years, I will be using the system below, with the same components, just like I am now. Current is Celeron @ 566 MHz, 256 MB, GeForce 4 MX440 purchased in 1999. The only thing that would change the current plan, is if there is some announcement of a new card which drops the price of the 9800 XT to where the Pro is now. Other than that, Half-Life 2 will still run at ~30.5 FPS according to that benchmark, slightly askew of course since I'll only have the 3200+ Athlon64. I just don't see the point in buying the highest priced hardware at the time. In my mind, it works the same way as Windows. Just because the new OS came out doesn't mean you go buy/download/steal right away, we always wait for SP1. Do the same thing with you're hardware, it'll be a much more pain-free experience. By the way, Triple Play 98 SCREAMS on my current PC. :E

 

[jasonh1234]

You gotta wonder if Gabe and his crew all had stock in ATI or something with the way he hyped it.

Excellent message. I've wondered the exact same thing for a while now but was to lazy to type it out. :dozey:

 

[OCybrManO]

Didn't Valve make a 6 or 8 million dollar deal with ATI instead of nVidia after they saw that nVidia's performance was lacking?

It was a while back... I don't remember exactly what happened.

 

[Chode]

Didn't Valve make a 6 or 8 million dollar deal with ATI instead of nVidia after they saw that nVidia's performance was lacking?

It was a while back... I don't remember exactly what happened.

Such things shall forever remain unanswered in all places except internet forums, where they shall be found on NVIDIA vs ATI threads with morns shouting "STFU n00b" and using once clever now boring titles like NVIDIot and fanATIc.

Truth is we will never know every reason for the choice of hardware partner. For all we know, one of the guys high up in ATI went to highschool together....

Or maybe Gabe had a dream with a giant red logo jumping up and down on NVIDIA.

Perhaps furious game players from 2012 travelled back in time, and convinced Gabe to switch to ATI so that the game would see completion before their own time.

Or maybe Gabe's just always been a fanATIc

We shall never know the whole truth.

 

[mjrhzrd]

Thought I would resurrect this thread as its content is raising its ugly head again regarding the dreaded wait for HL2 and Valve's inappropriate marketing of ATI hardware and Hype for HL2 when they knew damn well it was not ready.

But, I dont' really care any more. I am getting addicted to UT2004 Onslaught mode in ONS-Torlan.

 

[mattgirv]

I haven't read all of this post, I don't need to read all this post. The first 2 posts sum it all up pretty well.

VALVE didn't force/tell/make/plead for us to upgrade but they did INSIST that the release date would be met, and they said this again and again and nothing more was said until about a week before release.

Now please don't knock me for this but it is VALVEs fault for people upgrading. They pushed the date so much that no one was uncertain, everyone knew it would be 30th September except a few people (Fragmaster from PHL for one) but people took that with a pinch of salt.

VALVE have a responsibility to be kept here, and it wasn't until the 26th of September (or very near that date) that they actually said anything about a leak.

This is VALVEs fault and no one elses, they cannot blame the leak, it was clearly not done (nothing to do with the state the beta was in) but the fact as many posters have mentioned, the game does not take half a year to re-write.

Also VALVE have kept silent about most of this, apart from the odd post asking for help about some problem that has started because of them not being prepared for what could happen, when security is comprimised. If VALVE seriously want to make amends with most of the community they should speak out and let everyone know seriously what is being done. What they have found wrong and fixing and why everyone is waiting for one of the most eagerly awaited games of all time.

 

[atkamano]

can everybody just please STFU and stop reading this website until the game actually comes out???? i mean come on.....there has been virtually no news of anything....only people speculating and dissing each other out.....

 

[Apos]

Do I blame Valve? No, I can't. But I certainly expected better from them, with all the apparent support they were giving to the community, the access into their thoughts, the tech chats, and so on. It really felt like it was all a big put on, and they've done nothing to try and heal this perception or explain their own feelings about things.
If they had been more forthcoming about the delay, and earlier, no one would be cynical and bitter about being tricked into buying new hardware way early. The point is that they seemed like maybe they were different than other game developers. It turned out they weren't, at least in some ways, and it's just kind of sad, because it seems so pointless of them. They could have, and still could, show that they care about what the community thinks, explain their side on what went down. Maybe they'll do this someday. But time and credibility is awasting.

At least they'll likely never sink to Warren Spectator's level. He pretty clearly admits that he considers it a law never to listen too much to fans in the design process. Note to all game developers: fail to listen to fans, and you end up with clunky, cramped crap like DX:IW. We definately don't want, and can't, design games for you, or even help much. No one but the person who slaves away on the game, sees the full artistic vision, can really know what it takes to get things done, what's plausible, and what's just not possible.

But neither are we irrelevant to game design. We build the communities that can keep games going for a long long time, and we can get word of mouth going that no paid advertising can equal. We have expectations that can't be denied or ignored. We are on the other side of the computer screen: not some statistically average or bored professional playtesters. Actual people with ideas and frustrations and quirks. We can and will make or break a game.

Valve has one full game to their credit, and their second one looks set to be the sort of B-list title that Half-Life was originally slated to be (outdated technology, not a great deal of new content or experience other than the bots and a reportedly run-of-the-so-2-years-ago-mill SP mission pack). I don't think it's a stretch to guess that Half-Life 2 needs to be a big hit if the company is going to survive. They've poured tons of money into Steam, spent five years living off the income from just one game and community created and supported content.

But it could all go down the tubes like that. Look at DX:IW. When it came out, its tech specs were revolutionary, just like HL2's were going to be. It had a fantastic legacy and respected design ideas. Many people thought that "well, even if HL2 won't be out, at least we can be sure that another Deus Ex will kick ass) But instead, a few flaws almost no fan had forseen the true badness of doomed the game both critically and commercially. Phhhffftt: like that, it was all over. It will sell okay, but it will never be the cult hit that Deus Ex was, nor anywhere near the size of a hit that HL2 needs to be to keep Valve moving forwards.

And I REALLY want HL2 to be a big hit. I absolutely love the mod scene, and the idea of a large online community of gamers based around those mods. I really like the potential that Steam has, as shaky as its initial launch has been. HL2 needs to be a big hit to carry things forwards: and the bigger the game commercially, the more people who have it installed, the better the mod scene and the community.

But Valve really needs to rethink the importance of helping such a community thrive, and what it needs to do to keep people happy, loyal, and obsessed. I know many designers think that there are eternal laws of design, and that they are rulers unto themselves that shouldn't be swayed by uninformed yahoos. But things are changing: games are bigger than just their own design out of the box. They also live and breathe online, in the context of a community that supports and extends them. And this community needs not just the right bits and bytes, but the right sort of support, explaination, attitude. I _think_ the people at Valve appreciate this, probably better than most game designers. But I'm not so sure anymore, after the last few months. Maybe they really are just to busy to be worrying about anything else right now. I hope so.

 

[mjrhzrd]

Amen APOS!
You hit the nail on the head, much of what I was saying and more. Except I got flamed for much of it. The "By Gamers for Gamers" image is tarnished. The community does not have a warm fuzzy feeling for what has happened. Yup they owe us nothing, but that was not this was about. There was a community based on HL and its mods. Many of the adoring fans have migrated to other games as the HL community wans and has started disbanding. I really dont think that it will ever reach the level that it was in September/Fall of '03. Valve needs to do something quick to keep the interest alive, and I hope that Gabe sees this problem and does something about it. Perhaps even a test demo like UT2004 for player testing/feedback. Like I have said, some people are pissed, others ignore the issues, and others have just walked away.

My gaming group, which would have been rejuvenated in September by a release of HL2 is disbanding slowly but surely as they have migrated to other games in the last 6 months. Some BF1942, some Unreal, etc. I am sure that it is happening elsewhere.

Last Spring, one Sunday, I refreshed a filter for CS games and there were 142,000 players playing CS at one time, I have not seen it reach 40,000 in quite some time.

Please keep flames to a minimum.

The Major

 

[mattgirv]

Oh thats funny mate, because there is about 35,000 servers at the moment, so that means nearly a server for every person playing Counterstrike

 

[Apos]

I hope that Gabe sees this problem and does something about it. Perhaps even a test demo like UT2004 for player testing/feedback.

I'm actually not of the mind that they need to actually release anything at all until the full release. It's their business plan to suprise us all at once, and I don't have a beef with it. Mostly, I think what they need to do a) be more forthcoming about the delay or at least say that they WILL be more forthcoming at some date (as perhaps they don't want to be until the game comes out, or pending legal issues get resolved) and b) show a real focus on community development and community interaction.

I think they should appoint someone (maybe even an unpaid volunteer, but still someone who's really working for them) to be their liason to the fan community: a position distinct from a PR guy or a news media contact. I know that the Valve guys love to answer email themselves, but the fact is, there needs to be someone with the time and focus on the community in a more predictable and in-depth way, a dedicated person who has both more access to Valve's reasoning and inner workings than your average fan, but also has the time to play an active roll in the community on the level of a fan: answering questions on messageboards, being a personality within games, gathering fan interests and frustrations, and so on. Someone truly in both worlds.

I honestly think it would make a big difference not only to community trust and support, but also to their bottom line. Support and interaction and a personal touch MATTERS.

 

[XenoSpirit]

I believe that my fx 5900 will run hl2 just fine, DON'T BUY INTO THE HYPE!!! :sniper:

YOU SAID IT BRO then again im thinking about radeons... not just for hl2 but for Cstrike... uhh Cstrike.... ermmmm uhh SC4KRH uhhmmmmmnext gen of games lol I WISH FABLE WAS ON PC!!! n ways ima see how my FX5200 128DDR fairs with HL2 before upgradeing... my dad is very picky with priceing for the bang -.- kinda pisses me off thow.. last year he said TNT2 is the best for gameing... well !@#$ ya know? that card probly cost like 32$ and it dint run jack!@$$ i was trying to play renegade in window mode and i was crying over my war3 cause it was so jerky i couldnt even build !!!!! then came that nice Gforce 2 ... i loved it along with the unreal II that glided on it lol Gforce 2 is a great card if you just want a low priced small game card for your office comp but the FX5950 256 ULTRA and the 9800PRO / XT are the best right now... unless you make a cutom GFX card..

 

[Styloid]

I think that there are two sides to this argument (with people sitting anywhere between these two sides).
One sees Valve as a business. They are about money and sales and, as any modern business should, they must play to appease the customer in every aspect or risk losing their patronage. Their motto should always be: The customer is always right. Mistakes cannot be made.

The other side still sees Valve as a group of artists. They are trying to make a compelling game that is up to their perfectionist standards. They believe that we should respect them by letting them do the game their way.

Of course neither of these are wrong and they both have good things in them. Noone can really tell which view of Valve is more accurate either. Everything right now is just opinion and there is no way to settle this no matter how much you believe what you think is right.