Genetic Determinism

[Beerdude26]

whoa whoa, Mecha, God has created man in his image but not biologically.

So he created man in his mental image? I knew that hate for Jews was supernatural!

jk jews are awesome

 

[PvtRyan]

Which begs the question: why is God such a shitty designer? To bring in the old cliche: what the hell is an entertainment complex doing in the sewers? No human engineer would ever design us like this.

 

[Absinthe]

Which begs the question: why is God such a shitty designer? To bring in the old cliche: what the hell is an entertainment complex doing in the sewers? No human engineer would ever design us like this.

That is unless we were designed to defecate all over our naughty bits. Purposefully. :O

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I like the part where God invented ignorance so that Adam and Eve wouldn't realize how poorly designed they are.

Shouldn't have eaten that knowledge-apple; now you know that your bodies are the genetic equivalent of an Edsel!

Seriously, that's the principal moral of of the Garden of Eden story.

 

[Jintor]

What if god is an asshat?

This is suddenly beginning to look more and more probable. :O

 

[Walter]

What you just said doesn't make any sense.

What you look like has no impact on how much supernatural power you have. Omnipotent god has hands, legs, etc. All like a man.
Man has those same features, but is not omnipotent.

The question is why God would have the same features that humanity evolved specifically for use on Earth, if god lived in a void of empty space before the creation.

He would not have evolved that way, so what is the source of these features?

I'd like to know what is the source of your claims that he has legs or hands except "in his image".

The Lord said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air,
over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." (Gen. 1:26,27)


Not legs or hands but the soul. God created the soul of man in His own image.
Did you know that there are certain characteristics that are found in the Spirit of God which are also found in the spirit of man?
There are three characteristics found in God, which are also found in man. So what are they? The mind(spirit) so we could know God,
a heart(emotions) so we could love God, and a will so that we could obey God. so just as God is the possessor of a mind, a heart and a will,
so God placed in the soul of man a mind, a heart and a will.

Whether we are omnipotent is not relevant; God should have the power to make us fully understand his vital instructions.
There is absolutely no reason for an omnipotent god to be so bad at public speaking.

But He did use that power, we have a mind to study and understand His teachings. And is it really important to know whether we were created ten thousand or ten million years ago?

 

[Absinthe]

I'd like to know what is the source of your claims that he has legs or hands except "in his image".

The Lord said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air,
over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." (Gen. 1:26,27)

Not legs or hands but the soul. God created the soul of man in His own image.

Nowhere does it specify the human soul. Please supply an excerpt showing this specification, otherwise you're just making this shit up.

But He did use that power, we have a mind to study and understand His teachings.

Except we don't have the mind to understand him. For all the brainfarts we've had through history, our tendency still leans towards empirical reasoning, of which God has given diddly squat to work with. What kind intelligent creator being would deliberately design us with the capabilities for exercising critical thinking and then ask us to completely forsake them? When you break it down, intelligence is a sin.

Your god is either an asshole that likes watch us rip our minds in half, doesn't know what the hell he's doing, or doesn't exist. Last option is the most likely.

And is it really important to know whether we were created ten thousand or ten million years ago?

Well... yeah? It would be nice if all our data gathered in the areas of history and science was correct.

But that's still somewhat besides the point. It's not so much about the conclusions being reached as much as it is about the process being used to reach them. When you start teaching people that the earth is only ten thousand years old, you are doing so on no rational or plausible basis. You are telling people to accept your word on its own (and they will since religion is already pretty good at instilling obedience). You are practicing pseudo-science. You are, at any extent, either a liar or misinformed. You are flying in the face of all reasonable practices and standards for what constitutes a plausible belief, let alone a fact.

Nobody should be subjected to this kind of garbage.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Ezekiel 1:26-28
“Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.”

Ezekiel 1:14-16
“His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Revelation 1:14-16
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars

Compare:

Genesis 1:27
“God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”

Genesis 5:3
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth"

Note: The Hebrew term for ‘image’ usually denotes a very close resemblance.

2 Samuel 22:8
"Smoke went up from his nostrils,
and devouring fire from his mouth;
glowing coals flamed forth from him.
He bowed the heavens, and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.
[...]
Then the channels of the sea were seen,
the foundations of the world were laid bare
at the rebuke of the Lord,
at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.


God has arms: Ex. 6:6; Ex. 15:16; Deut. 4:34 Deut. 7:19; 9:29; 26:8; Acts 13:17. Deut. 5:15 Psa. 136:12. Deut. 11:2; Deut. 33:27; 1 Kin. 8:42 2 Chr. 6:32. 2 Kin. 17:36; Psa. 77:15; Psa. 89:10, 13, 21; Psa. 98:1; Song 2:6; Isa. 33:2; Isa. 40:10, 11; Isa. 51:5, 9; Isa. 52:10; Isa. 53:1; Isa. 59:16; Isa. 62:8; Isa. 63:5, 12; Jer. 21:5 Ezek. 20:33. Jer. 27:5 Jer. 32:17. Luke 1:51.

God has ears: Psa. 17:6; Psa. 39:12; Psa. 77:1; Psa. 80:1; Psa. 84:8.

God has eyes: Psa. 33:18, 19; Psa. 34:15 Amos 9:8; 1 Pet. 3:12. Psa. 121:3–5; Isa. 1:15; Isa. 3:8; Hab. 1:13; Matt. 6:22; Luke 11:34.

God has hands: Num. 11:23; is mighty, Josh. 4:24; was heavy, 1 Sam. 5:6; against the Philistines, 1 Sam. 7:13; on Elijah, 1 Kin. 18:46; not shortened, Isa. 59:1; was with the early Christians, Acts 11:21.

God has a footstool: The earth is God’s, Isa. 60:13; 66:1; Lam. 2:1; Acts 7:49.

God has a scepter: Gen. 49:10; Num. 24:17; Isa. 9:4.

God sits on a throne: 2 Chr. 18:18; Psa. 9:4, 7; 11:4; 47:8; 89:14; 97:2; 103:19; Isa. 6:1; 66:1; Matt. 5:34; 23:22; Heb. 8:1; 12:2; Rev. 14:3, 5; of Christ, Matt. 19:28; 25:31; Acts 2:30; Rev. 1:4; 3:21; 4:2–10; 7:9–17; 19:4; 21:5; 22:3.

etc.

There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that these passages are metaphorical.

God created the soul of man in His own image.

It doesn't say that anywhere. Don't make stuff up.

There are three characteristics found in God, which are also found in man. So what are they? The mind(spirit) so we could know God,
a heart(emotions) so we could love God, and a will so that we could obey God. so just as God is the possessor of a mind, a heart and a will,
so God placed in the soul of man a mind, a heart and a will.

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct. Why would God, who is omnipotent, have any need for these things? And why would he give them to us improperly?

-Mind
If we have minds to learn about god, why does god have a mind? He knows everything by default. He doesn't need a mind.
Also, the mind isn't a spirit, unless electrochemicals are ghosts.
(Protip: they're not)

-Heart
Emotions don't come from the heart. They come from the nervous system, like all behaviour. Emotional reflexes are there to cause instinctual reactions to specific situations.
We're afraid of things to prevent danger. We enjoy the company of others because societies offer protection.
God doesn't need the instinctual reactions of emotion to cope with life. He's omnipotent.

-Will
Will also comes from the nervous system. You need the capacity to identify and attain goals or you'd die of starvation.
Again, this isn't much more than an instinctual reaction that promotes survival.
God doesn't need a will. He's omnipotent. Everything he "wants" happens instantly.
And since he's omniscient, he already knows what he wants.
In other words, god has already made the entire universe exactly the way he wants it to be.

He lacks the capacity for desire because there was, and is, never a point in time when his desires aren't fully satisfied.

So ignoring that nonsensicality, let's assume that God gave us our nervous system as a copy of his.
That doesn't make any sense either, because our nervous system is not only blatantly inferior, but also specifically suited to a physical body.

As a result, we can do tons of things that omnipotent god cannot: we can feel hot, cold, sick, afraid, disappointed, surprised, amazed, etc. etc. etc.

This, of course, brings up the question of why god is angry and vengeful all the time. How can you be angry at something that you knew 100% was inevitable since the dawn of time? It's like getting angry at gravity.

Also, why does god hate fags? That's obviously a supremely negative emotion. Anger without good reason, according to Jesus, is a terrible sin equally bad as murder.

Humanity has both the capacity to fail and the capacity to improve, both of which god must inherently lack.

Clearly our minds were not created in the image of god's mind. (The image of the mind? That doesn't even make sense.)

But He did use that power (of understanding god), we have a mind to study and understand His teachings. And is it really important to know whether we were created ten thousand or ten million years ago?

It is absolutely important unless you don't care anything about paleontology, anthropology, geology, astronomy, sociology, biology, chemistry, etc. Basically any science.
Furthermore, if you could prove that the Earth just popped out of thin air 6000 years ago, that would be scientific evidence that god exists and you'd save millions of people from hell via conversion.

Also, we weren't "created".
And you're dodging my question:

Why would god give us teachings and not a brain capable of fully understanding those teachings?
It's self-defeating.

You don't understand the teachings. You treat them as metaphors and other rubbish*. I routinely have to correct you (like at the top of this post, for example) about what the teachings mean.
So, if fully understanding the teachings is essential for entering heaven**, why would god set you up to fail so spectacularily? He's omniscient. He knows you'll fail at understanding the bible. He always knew.

He has literally and intentionally made you, no offense, too stupid to enter heaven.

Unless, of course, I was "created" as a messenger who is destined to teach you how to stop disobeying the bible.
It's not too late to repent! Kill gays!



* Mark 4:11-12
to those on the outside, everything comes in parables [a parable is a metaphorical story] so that they may look and look but never perceive, listen and listen but never understand.
Otherwise they might change their ways and be forgiven.'

**Matthew 5:19-20
"whoevever practices these commandments and teaches them will be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven.
I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[kirovman]

* Mark 4:11-12
to those on the outside, everything comes in parables [a parable is a metaphorical story] so that they may look and look but never perceive, listen and listen but never understand.
Otherwise they might change their ways and be forgiven.'

That's my favourite part of the Bible.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Yeah, it's too bad that Jesus was talking metaphorically about how metaphors are evil unless they support a literal interpretation of the bible's laws.

 

[Walter]

Nowhere does it specify the human soul. Please supply an excerpt showing this specification, otherwise you're just making this shit up.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

He(Christ)is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)

There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that these passages are metaphorical.

So? that makes them literal then?

a poem :

I wish to write of sands.
The sands of the Gobi,
the Arabian, the Sahara.
They sing when the night winds cross,
the chant to spirit mountains, the hiss
that buries cities of gold,
that fills the padded tracks
of caravans bearing silk, and jasmine, and slaves.

"Look! no indication of metaphory here, how can sands sing?!"

This, of course, brings up the question of why god is angry and vengeful all the time. How can you be angry at something that you knew 100% was inevitable since the dawn of time?

Maybe He's beyond time

Also, we weren't "created".
And you're dodging my question:

You know, such phrazes makes you look stupid.


And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables (John 4:11)

hmm, i've found a commentary on that sentence:

MHC: 4:1-20 This parable contained instruction so important, that all capable of hearing were bound to attend to it. There are many things we are concerned to know; and if we understand not the plain truths of the gospel, how shall we learn those more difficult! It will help us to value the privileges we enjoy as disciples of Christ, if we seriously consider the deplorable state of all who have not such privileges. In the great field of the church, the word of God is dispensed to all. Of the many that hear the word of the gospel, but few receive it, so as to bring forth fruit. Many are much affected with the word for the present, who yet receive no abiding benefit. The word does not leave abiding impressions upon the minds of men, because their hearts are not duly disposed to receive it. The devil is very busy about careless hearers, as the fowls of the air go about the seed that lies above ground. Many continue in a barren, false profession, and go down to hell. Impressions that are not deep, will not last. Many do not mind heart-work, without which religion is nothing. Others are hindered from profiting by the word of God, by abundance of the world. And those who have but little of the world, may yet be ruined by indulging the body. God expects and requires fruit from those who enjoy the gospel, a temper of mind and Christian graces daily exercised, Christian duties duly performed. Let us look to the Lord, that by his new-creating grace our hearts may become good ground, and that the good seed of the word may produce in our lives those good words and works which are through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of God the Father.

 

[Walter]

God doesn't need a will. He's omnipotent. Everything he "wants" happens instantly.

Really?

He (Christ) went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." (Mathew 26:42)

Not always His will is done in a moment. Yes, he can do it, but doesn't mean He wants to.

Also, why does god hate fags? That's obviously a supremely negative emotion. Anger without good reason, according to Jesus, is a terrible sin equally bad as murder.

http://www.celtic-catholic-church.org/oak_tree/does-God-hate-gays.html

 

[Absinthe]

Here we go with the links again... And you were making such an improvement.

 

[Walter]

Aww sowy . But the serious is the question, the less i am able to answer it with a reasonable argument. It takes time for me to understand it myself .

 

[Mechagodzilla]

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)
He(Christ)is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)

God is not invisible, or else Moses (who was allowed to see god) is a liar.
Colossians was written by Paul, who was a liar. He contradicts Jesus and, here, he contradicts Moses. Lies aren't good, Walter.

God also cannot be invisible because both Ezekiel and John give identical physical descriptions of him. If they were metaphors, why would they both write the same metaphor?
Also, why would they elaborate on the metaphors with similies?
"His metaphorical eyes were metaphorically like brass that was metaphorically hot!
God looks identical to what jesus will look like at the time of the second coming.

God is a spirit with limbs and nostrils and etc. He looks exactly like an old man, except glowing white-orange and probably has angel-wings (the wings are described in one passage).

So? that makes them literal then?

[poem]

"Look! no indication of metaphory here, how can sands sing?!"

Poetry is metaphorical by design. Laws are not.
Jesus never said "obey my poems".
Don't you think, if that were the case, he would have told people in no uncertain terms that "kill rape victims" was a metaphor?
He did not say that.
Instead he said to follow all the commandments forever or you will go to hell.
He did not say "listen to my poetry but don't actually do any of it unless you feel like it."

Or here's one for you:

What makes God literal?

Under your cocky view, there is no indication that God literally did or said anything either.
How about I declare that God was a metaphor for Moses' harsh authoritarianism?
That makes tons more sense.

Oh snap, you debunked yourself.

Your system of seperating "metaphor" from "fact" is completely arbitrary, and thus meaningless.

Maybe He's beyond time

Yeah, that's what I said. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows everything that will ever happen. Time is meaningless to him because he already knows the future.
Are you claiming that god does not know everything?

You know, such phrazes makes you look stupid.

Being disproven with valid arguments makes me look stupid. Thank god that hasn't come close to happening yet.

And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables (John 4:11)

Yes, that is what the passage says: if you understand the mystery of the kingdom of god, which jesus said is the law (because people who don't follow the law are "least" in the kingdom), you can decipher the parables.
If you do not, the parables are utterly meaningless because their meaning is arbitrary.

Which is exactly what you claim they are: arbitrary.

You didn't even read that rambling block of text you posted:

God expects and requires fruit from those who enjoy the gospel

God expects and requires you to do the work of following his laws.
It is not adequate to just sit there and enjoy the "poetry" of, for example, the massive, repetitive list of regulations for conducting a proper ritual sacrifice.

You also didn't read the quote you posted from matthew:

"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

Jesus says it is impossible for him not to drink. It is impossible for God's will to be contradicted.

That's exactly what I've said.

It is impossible to contradict god's will because god already knows everything that has happened, will happen and that will ever happen.


And I'm also not going to read that last link for you. Please summarize the key points, and explain why that doesn't contradict the part where god calls 'em an abomination.

 

[Cole]

Walter, if you cannot understand something then do not use it in an argument. Mecha will be able to understand it and will be able to find it's flaws and present them. However you wont be able to respond properly because you failed to understand it.

Also that article really didn't prove anything, it attempts to dismiss God as hating gays, however fails to do so. It brings up points that God loves all those that love him, however what it fails to do is bring up the already existing points about God and Fags and show why they are wrong. Therefor, your article is not enough to support your argument.

 

[Walter]

Jesus says it is impossible for him not to drink. It is impossible for God's will to be contradicted.

That's exactly what I've said.

You've said that God's will doesn't exist.

Yeah, that's what I said. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows everything that will ever happen. Time is meaningless to him because he already knows the future.
Are you claiming that god does not know everything?

Yes, God knows all of the time. Time that we ourselves are building, choices that we ourselves make with our own free will. He knows those people that will certainly go to hell, so what. Jesus knew Judas will betray him, tried to convince him not to though as he was supposed to. He knows when the end of time will be, which we are making ourselves.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

You've said that God's will doesn't exist.

No, read it more carefully. I said he doesn't need a will. And, as a result, his "will" is absolutely nothing like ours.

But now that you mention it, maybe I was wrong.

The will is the capacity to desire and want, so it is quite impossible to suffer longing and/or desire for something if you are omnipotent.


Let's say god wants a sandwich. This is a very simple desire.

Why would god want a sandwich?
He can't be hungry, because that's a weakness.
He can't be bored, because that's a weakness.
There is no explanation, because if god has a weakness, he is not omnipotent.

But anyways, let's ignore that.
He wants a sandwich, so he makes the sandwich appear. ...But when?

God can't make himself wait for the sandwich. Forcing himself to delay would cause weakness in his sandwich delivery.
God also exists outside of time. He physically cannot wait for the sandwich.
If he waits for even the tiniest fraction of a nanosecond, that sandwich arrived too slow, because then he would be subject to the forces of time and stop being omnipotent.

The only possible explanation is that the sandwich appears before god ever wanted it. He actually eats the sandwich before he feels hungry. He tastes the sandwich before he can even imagine it, and this does not surprise him because he knew it would happen all along.

He is in fact, eating a sandwich eternally. He cannot stop eating the sandwich.
It is an infinite sandwich that holds the essence of all possible sandwiches and which never ends.

The same must be said for all things god could possibly want. All the most minor pleasures are constant and infinite to him.
Therefore, it is impossible for god to experience a will.
He is fated to a constant unchanging state of limitless pleasure.

Which means he can't be angry at anyone or have a will that is even remotely similar to a human's.

He also cannot give us free will.

Yes, God knows all of the time. Time that we ourselves are building, choices that we ourselves make with our own free will.

It's not free will if god can see the future and all possible different futures.
He knows very single possible choice that you will ever make, and it is impossible for him to allow something bad to happen.
Free will cannot exist in a world with an omnipotent god.

I'm not sure if you're fully grasping the concept of omniscience.
It is impossible for god not to have planned something in advance.
He cannot even plan the idea of planning in advance.
His plan is pre-established and constant, like the sandwich he eats.

He knows those people that will certainly go to hell, so what.

So that means that god knows there is no such thing as free will, and thus he is causing trillions of people to experience unimaginable torture in the fires of hell.

Do you think it's okay that people are repeatedly and eternally having the living flesh ripped from their crying skeletons, with no pause for relief or any dulling of the pain?
I don't think that's okay at all, but god must think it's okay.

Unless, of course, there is no hell or god.

He knows when the end of time will be, which we are making ourselves.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. There is no free will in your religion. It is impossible.

There is only the delusion that your will is free.

 

[DaMaN]

The only possible explanation is that the sandwich appears before god ever wanted it. He actually eats the sandwich before he feels hungry. He tastes the sandwich before he can even imagine it, and this does not surprise him because he knew it would happen all along.

He is in fact, eating a sandwich eternally. He cannot stop eating the sandwich.
It is an infinite sandwich that holds the essence of all possible sandwiches and which never ends.

I wish I had a sandwich like that...

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Hell yeah, because this is a sandwich rendered as the perfection of food itself.

It is archetypal. It is the alpha and omega, the sandwich from which all sandwiches are forged. If a sandwiches could have a god, this would be their sandwich-god.

And it flows, in a single infinite tide of wheat and bologna, into the eternally chewing maw of Yahweh. And alongside this sandwich flow infinite rivers of all food, each more perfect than the last. Here is a stream of dairy cheese. There is an unending banana glowing white and pre-peeled.

All foods flow into the mouth of god, and are licked eternally by his divine tongue which constantly detects and differentiates between each atom of their perfect composition as the sweet savor of their airs are inhaled always, even as jets of smoke shoot forth from his nose without limit, and a vast beam of pure fire blasts eternally from his mouth.

All actions are simultaneous to an omnipotent god.

 

[PvtRyan]

Great, now I'm hungry.

And my biggest problem with the existence of any deity is his motive. What kind of motive could a god possibly have to create a universe with people? What are his reasons? Simple: there's absolutely no reason why an omnipotent god would do ANYTHING if he existed. If there was a god, he wouldn't have made the universe, there's nothing that could have moved him to doing it. The very existence of the universe is proof there is no omnipotent god. Doesn't necessarily mean there is no fallible god, but if the god that created us is fallible, why would we give a shit what he's saying?

 

[Walter]

No, read it more carefully. I said he doesn't need a will. And, as a result, his "will" is absolutely nothing like ours.

But now that you mention it, maybe I was wrong.

The will is the capacity to desire and want, so it is quite impossible to suffer longing and/or desire for something if you are omnipotent.

Unless you love someone so much, you're willing to suffer for them.

Why would god want a sandwich?
He can't be hungry, because that's a weakness.
He can't be bored, because that's a weakness.
There is no explanation, because if god has a weakness, he is not omnipotent.

But anyways, let's ignore that.
He wants a sandwich, so he makes the sandwich appear. ...But when?

God can't make himself wait for the sandwich. Forcing himself to delay would cause weakness in his sandwich delivery.
God also exists outside of time. He physically cannot wait for the sandwich.
If he waits for even the tiniest fraction of a nanosecond, that sandwich arrived too slow, because then he would be subject to the forces of time and stop being omnipotent.

You're philosophing about things which are considered by us impossible or illogical to understand. you're talking about what he is capable of as an omnipotent being :dozey: .

(...)He cannot stop eating the sandwich. (...)

He's omnipotent, don't forget

It's not free will if god can see the future and all possible different futures.
He knows very single possible choice that you will ever make, and it is impossible for him to allow something bad to happen.
Free will cannot exist in a world with an omnipotent god.

Why do you consider him knowing the future makes you enslaved to it? He didn't create that, he just sees what choice you'll be able to create and say whether "you'll perish" or "this very day you'll see me in heaven".

 

[Absinthe]

Walter, you clearly know nothing about the concepts of fate or free will.

If God can see the choices I am going to make in the future, then I am already enslaved to them. There is simply no way to alter such outcomes with an omnipotent and omniscient being. As the creator of everything, he knew what I would do before I was even born, and he consequently knew whether or not I would ascend to Heaven or burn in Hell long before I would have the ability to comprehend such matters.

If you can explain in detail how free will and omniscience can co-exist, then please do so. It's my assurance that you will have quite a difficult time doing so.

 

[Walter]

Well, i'll think about it for a while.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Unless you love someone so much, you're willing to suffer for them.

In the embellished words of Tina Turner: What the hell does love have to do with anything?

God cannot suffer. Ever. Because he is omnipotent.

You're philosophing about things which are considered by us impossible or illogical to understand. you're talking about what he is capable of as an omnipotent being :dozey: .

I am indeed talking about things that you consider impossible or illogical.

However, you are very incorrect. Just like the bible, omnipotence is all but certainly fictional, but it must follow specific rules of logic regardless.

And, at this point, you certainly can't claim to be a good judge of 'logical' and 'illogical', what with that last "maybe he's in love" argument - and all the other arguments that didn't stand up to scrutiny.

The concept of omnipotence follows simple rules. There are certain things an omnipotent being must do and certain things it cannot do.
An omnipotent being can never fail in any way, and therefore must exist in a state of perfect constancy.

He's omnipotent, don't forget [and is therefore capable of failing to make a sandwich].

Incorrect, because that's impossible.
Failing to make a sandwich is a weakness that an omnipotent being cannot experience.

Why do you consider him knowing the future makes you enslaved to it?

Read the sandwich analogy again, but replace "sandwich" with "future" to get the basic idea here.

When god creates something, it must follow pre-set guidelines.
Since he exists out of time this means all time, for him, happens simultaneously. It would be very much like taking the frames from a video and laying them out in a row to see every little action.
The difference is that God's "cameras" have already recorded everything that has happened and will happen from all angles simultaneously and at infinite frames per second.

Remember what I wrote?

"I'm not sure if you're fully grasping the concept of omniscience.
It is impossible for god not to have planned something in advance.
He cannot even plan the idea of planning in advance.
His plan is pre-established and constant, like the sandwich he eats."

If god is omnipotent, then this universe and everything in it is exactly the way he wanted it to be and all its events have been pre-planned to occur in exactly one way that is perfect to God. Like his perfect sandwich, this is an archetype that has always existed.

Chaos, randomness and all those similar ideas are meaningless to an omnipotent god. God cannot take chances or make mistakes. And if they are meaningless to god, they are meaningless to us as well.

Unless god is not real.

He didn't create [the future], he just sees what choice you'll be able to create and say whether "you'll perish" or "this very day you'll see me in heaven".

Incorrect. When God created you, he created you knowing exactly how you would turn out.
Every gene, every, cell, every meal, every encounter and every accident. Every single variable that has shaped your life, no matter how insignifigant, must have been known in advance.
Therefore, god could not have created you without knowing exactly what single path you will take.

God always knew the exact nanosecond you will die, and he knew exactly how sinful you will be when that happens.
And he created you anyways, to live that hyper-specific fate.
If he did not desire that exact fate, he would have created the entire universe differently.

You cannot, ever, make a choice that god did not anticipate. No-one can.

This means that God created the universe knowing full well that trillions of people would end up tortured in hell for eternity.
In fact, he must have done it because he wanted trillions of people to be tortured in hell for eternity.
There is nothing about this universe that was not intentional to him.

Such a god who enjoys torture is not worthy of worship.

If god is real, and god is omnipotent, then the exact plan for your life has always existed since before time.

There's no way around this, unless there is no god.

 

[Polaris]

About genetic determinism, it's far from religion of any kind. I'm strong atheist and neodarwinist and I belive in genetic fate but biological heritage shouldn't be considered as a justification of your acts or used in justice.

 

[Jintor]

And my biggest problem with the existence of any deity is his motive. What kind of motive could a god possibly have to create a universe with people? What are his reasons? Simple: there's absolutely no reason why an omnipotent god would do ANYTHING if he existed. If there was a god, he wouldn't have made the universe, there's nothing that could have moved him to doing it. The very existence of the universe is proof there is no omnipotent god. Doesn't necessarily mean there is no fallible god, but if the god that created us is fallible, why would we give a shit what he's saying?

I'd like to use my super-arguement that makes no sense.

You're applying human-logic to God! THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! STOP EEEeEeEEeEETTtTTTtTTT!

Contradict THAT!

 

[Max35]

Well, i'll think about it for a while.

I think I had a heart attack. Well, good luck with that...

 

[Walter]

How can we use logic to describe God's power, if He is the creator of logic. It staggers the mind: At one time I ask a question if God can make such a heavy rock that He wouldn't be able to lift it, but then realise that any logical assumption isn't possible for us to know. Since God is omnipotent...logic completely steps aside.
The only time he limits his own omnipotency is for the matter of perfection - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23:19.

It's just like i'd raise my hand against my own mother and then say "i cannot hurt her" (even though i still am capable of hurting her).

 

[Cole]

How can we use logic to describe God's power, if He is the creator of logic. It staggers the mind: At one time I ask a question if God can make such a heavy rock that He wouldn't be able to lift it, but then realise that any logical assumption isn't possible for us to know. Since God is omnipotent...logic completely steps aside.
The only time he limits his own omnipotency is for the matter of perfection - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23:19.

It's just like i'd raise my hand against my own mother and then say "i cannot hurt her" (even though i still am capable of hurting her).

Ok. Lets not use logic.

God got bored and killed himself.

You may think, how can god get bored or kill himself? Why would he even do that? Because, it's illogical.

Before God went, he threw everyone in heaven to hell. God was also deppressed.

If we can't use logic, then we must present the most retarded idea's as fact!

 

[Absinthe]

How can we use logic to describe God's power, if He is the creator of logic.

Congratulations, you have just placed God completely out of the sphere of human knowledge and have rendered him as an entity that we shouldn't concern ourselves with at any point.

Fabrications that exist outside of our own capabilities for understanding are worthless to us. But I'm willing to bet that, like most theists, you would jump for joy if science ever produced evidence to his existence and workings.

People like to badmouth or devalue logic when it comes to gods... at least until it starts working in their favor.

 

[Jintor]

How can we use logic to describe God's power, if He is the creator of logic. It staggers the mind: At one time I ask a question if God can make such a heavy rock that He wouldn't be able to lift it, but then realise that any logical assumption isn't possible for us to know. Since God is omnipotent...logic completely steps aside.
The only time he limits his own omnipotency is for the matter of perfection - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23:19.

It's just like i'd raise my hand against my own mother and then say "i cannot hurt her" (even though i still am capable of hurting her).

I'd like to use my super-arguement that makes no sense.

You're applying human-logic to God! THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! STOP EEEeEeEEeEETTtTTTtTTT!

Contradict THAT!

I don't think you understand the irony.

 

[PvtRyan]

But I'm willing to bet that, like most theists, you would jump for joy if science ever produced evidence to his existence and workings.

Indeed, to use Dawkins' example: if by some miracle we can scientifically prove that Jesus had no biological father, would theists dismiss this evidence because "science/logic has no grounds in faith"? Of course not!

 

[Mechagodzilla]

How can we use logic to describe God's power, if He is the creator of logic.

I just did, with the sandwich analogy. Would you care to read it again?

God is not the creator of logic because logic is not a "thing."
It is an idea, a method of describing other things.
As long as god is capable of being described, he is subject to logic.

The fact that you call him "he", the fact that you call him "creator" and the fact that you call him "omnipotent" are all applications of logic in the description of god.
Why would you say that god cannot be described?

It staggers the mind:

Correction: it staggers your mind. My mind was able to figure it out without much difficulty, because omnipotence is an unambiguous absolute.

At one time I ask a question if God can make such a heavy rock that He wouldn't be able to lift it, but then realise that any logical assumption isn't possible for us to know.

Actually, it is quite possible:

-God is an omnipotent being.
-Omnipotent beings cannot be defeated.
-If god creates an unliftable rock, he defeats himself.
Therefore, god cannot create an unliftable rock.

Omnipotence means you can do everything except lose your omnipotence. It's a simple concept.

Since God is omnipotent...logic completely steps aside

Patently untrue.
As I, and everyone else, have pointed out, logic applies to everything.
If you can make concrete statements about god, then logic applies to him. If those statements are false and otherwise illogical or paradoxical, then god simply is not real.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23:19.

God indeed does not lie or repent. God is also capable of doing anything he considers good for himself. What is your point?

It's just like i'd raise my hand against my own mother and then say "i cannot hurt her" (even though i still am capable of hurting her).

No, it's not like that at all.
I'm not even sure how this analogy even works.
Are you comparing yourself to god in the analogy or is your mother jesus...?

I'm sorry, but all those points are nonsensical. Try again?

 

[Walter]

Congratulations, you have just placed God completely out of the sphere of human knowledge and have rendered him as an entity that we shouldn't concern ourselves with at any point.

Fabrications that exist outside of our own capabilities for understanding are worthless to us. But I'm willing to bet that, like most theists, you would jump for joy if science ever produced evidence to his existence and workings.

People like to badmouth or devalue logic when it comes to gods... at least until it starts working in their favor.

Nah, i just badmouth logic when it comes to his omnipotency.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Well you certainly haven't done a good job of it, to be honest.
You need logic to conclude that something is illogical.

If omnipotence is illogical, then omnipotence cannot exist as you imagine it.
It means you imagined it wrong.


What part of omnipotence, exactly, cannot be understood through inference?
Let's narrow it down to find exactly what the problem is.