genetic manipulation...we need to come to an agreement here!

[jverne]

There's a lot more regulation in the release of a GM crop than you might think, at least in the majority of countries. I've been lectured by one of the main men in the Golden Rice project team, did you know it takes about 10 years and millions of dollars before a GM crop will be approved for argictultural use? You have to go through the same process ineach country you want to grow it in too. In fact even non-GM crops go through long certification processes when a new cultivar is developed.

What's this bullshit about 'pollution'? You think GM wheat will somehow cause 'natural' wheat to stop growing in the wild or something?
The video is laughable, without even the slightest pretense at trying to present a balanced case. Did you see the part where some organic farmer was complaining that the Big Evil Corporation failed to warn his neighbour that if he planted GM crops the seeds could grow in soil elsewhere? As if farmers would be ignorant of that?
Or where the other organic farmer was saying that there's almost no 'pure' canola grown in Canada anymore? Could that be because most farmers prefer better yielding GM varieties? No, obviously the Big Bad Corporations are holding them at gun-point.

Honestly I do have some misgivings about these multinationals having such limited competition in the field of GM development - but that's the fault of Governments, anti-GM NGOs and the public.
If governments didn't make it prohibitavely costly for startup biotech companies to develop GM you would have less of those problems. If NGOs like Friends of the Earth weren't using scare tactics and demonising GM technology, and if the public didn't buy into their bullshit then we could get far more publicly funded R&D into GM to the same level we do in most other branches of science.

That said the supremacy of the multinationals in this field will be coming to its end. Many asian countries, including China and India, are sinking massive amounts of resources into improving crops - and are looking at less dubious targets than things such as Terminator technologies.

I'm shocked at your gullibility and naivety, falling for the tired propaganda of the environmentalist extremeists.

and what makes you think 10 years or millions of dollars is a lot?
who makes this tests...independent laboratories or companies themselves? the Norwegian guy said he discovered gene transfer in mice. and he also thinks most scientists are on the corporation payrolls. sure...might not be entirely true but since it's a new technology and there are so few scientists and firms, i wouldn't be surprised.
the GM salmon company said themselves they run their own tests.




read this

A study from Berkeley says that despite claims from the biotech industry and academic researches, there is no indication that biotechnology will solve the shortcomings of industrial agriculture. Compared to the novel and untested crop systems that biotech corporations are pushing as the only solution to food security problems, organic farming has many advantages. The majority of genetically engineered crops currently in cultivation do not appear to show higher yields. For example, contrary to claims by Monsanto, a recent study by Dr. Charles Bendrook, the former director of the Board on Agriculture at the National Academy of Sciences, indicates that genetically engineered Roundup Ready soybeans do not increase yields (Bendrook, 1999). The report reviewed over 8,200 university trials in 1998 and found that Roundup Ready soybeans yielded 7-10% less than similar natural varieties. In addition, the same study found that farmers used 5-10 times more herbicide (Roundup) on Roundup Ready soybeans than on conventional ones. The only reason farmers seem to prefer Roundup Ready soybeans is because they simplify management of large chemically-intensive farms by allowing them, for example, to spray larger doses of herbicides from planes on crops engineered to be resistant to the particular herbicide. Applications of biotechnology continue the legacy of industrial agricultural with monocultures and high energy and chemical inputs.

oh lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food

Some scientists[18] argue that there is more than enough food in the world and that the hunger crisis is caused by problems in food distribution and politics, not production, so people should not be offered food that may carry some degree of risk.[19][20] The University of Michigan says that Organic farming can yield up to three times as much food on individual farms in developing countries, as low-intensive methods on the same land?according to new findings which refute the long-standing claim that organic farming methods cannot produce enough food to feed the global population.[21]

this is probably more true than anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food


the government makes it difficult to start new companies? yes, we definitely need more firms that make their own safety tests and shouldn't be regulated (not that it seem they are in a lot of countries). :|
i think this is an expensive business even without gov restrictions.

the video may be in average stupid but the practices in GM food industry nowadays have legitimate concerns.

 

[Eejit]

and what makes you think 10 years or millions of dollars is a lot?
who makes this tests...independent laboratories or companies themselves? the Norwegian guy said he discovered gene transfer in mice. and he also thinks most scientists are on the corporation payrolls. sure...might not be entirely true but since it's a new technology and there are so few scientists and firms, i wouldn't be surprised.
the GM salmon company said themselves they run their own tests.


Way to miss my point, 10 years and millions of dollars isn't a lot to the multinationals, but it's enough to prevent newer companies from competing. If he's discovered said gene transfer in mice an article link would be nice.
There are far more scientists than you seem to think. There are over 4000 PhD students working on resistance to once specific pest in China alone. Outside of america academic institutions don't have such tight links with corporations. Every single biologist I've met has been pro-GM, (inb4'theyrepaidoff - even those working in different field)
Of course the companies run their own tests initially, but they still have to pass government standards before they can be planted, with even more rigorous testing than new non-GM cultivars do.

read this

Oh right, so one of the first examples of the technology being developed isn't perfect. Let's scrap the whole system mayne!

oh lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food



this is probably more true than anything else.
Ehhh, from a viewpoint of calories, yes there are enough calories being produced to feed the whole world given perfect distribution. Having enough calories doesn't prevent Murasmus, blindness due to Vitamin A deficiency, or increased mortality from disease due to weakened vitamin and protein deprived immune systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food


the government makes it difficult to start new companies? yes, we definitely need more firms that make their own safety tests and shouldn't be regulated (not that it seem they are in a lot of countries). :|
i think this is an expensive business even without gov restrictions.
There are tons of government restrictions. The FOE etc. who say there aren't are lying through their teeth. In the US this is carried out by the FDA for example.
We need smaller companies and governments to be able to develop GM crops because otherwise the multinationals WILL end up with a monopoly. As I said, there are restrictions.
the video may be in average stupid but the practices in GM food industry nowadays have legitimate concerns.

Stop swallowing everything whole man.
It's ridiculous how you take the word of people and groups with a vested interest in organic farming at their word, yet doubt everything their opponents say because they're like obviously all only motivated by money!!

Please, troll wikipedia and FOE sites more, they're sure to be 100% reliable.

 

[jverne]

Stop swallowing everything whole man.
It's ridiculous how you take the word of people and groups with a vested interest in organic farming at their word, yet doubt everything their opponents say because they're like obviously all only motivated by money!!

Please, troll wikipedia and FOE sites more, they're sure to be 100% reliable.

"This transgene was stable inside the bacteria and appeared to produce herbicide-tolerant protein... In the only human feeding study ever conducted on GM crops, long standing assumptions that genes would not transfer to human gut bacteria were overturned. The findings should prompt immediate comprehensive follow-up tests to determine the implications for health among both the general population and at-risk groups."

^ Smith, Jeffery. Genetic Roulette: The Documented Health Risks of Genetically Engineered Foods, p.130, 2007



as for the vitamin A issue...it's not because of crops they don't get it enough, it's because the third world is ****ed up by politics and other factors that don't really involve food directly.
unemployment, overpopulation, bad politics, meddling by western powers,...


i propose that instead of private companies, such critical research should be done by some government or non profit based organization that will distribute the seeds as needed globally.
but since that won't happen i might agree that more companies should be available. i'd certainly like to see the list of those 4000 scientists that work on it and where are they employed.
i have to agree that this technology shouldn't be disallowed or something.

as for the wiki credibility...the first quote can be found here

http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/~christos/articles/cv_organic_farming.html

 

[Eejit]

I don't have a list of those scientists, it was mentioned by one of my lecturers who collaborates with one of the groups to some extent. Also I did mention they're Chinese scientists, yeah? Their government seems to restrict information out of principle. Still, I'm reviewing that lecture in a week or two will see if there's some detail I don't remember atm if you like.

Can you find me a peer-reviewed article backing up that sensationalist biased-looking book? I would be really surprised if it was true and none of the staff in my faculty had thought to mention it.


The problem is that many governments are leery of supporting GM research too strongly because of public opinion fuelled by misinformation campaigns of pro-organic groups play on people's fear of the unknown. That needs to stop for real progress to be made - at least in the West. China doesn't have that particular problem at least

Vitamin A issue is not a problem due to crops, no, but it can be solved by them. Look at the Golden Rice project. Incidentally it is another fine example of why more, alternative funding is needed. Ingo Potrykus ran out of funding part way through development of this GM crop, and in the end had to sell the rights to Syngenta. Luckily they decided that since they were getting such a good deal for a product so far along they would make it free for use as the original research team intended - a PR stunt by Syngenta of course.

 

[jverne]

I don't have a list of those scientists, it was mentioned by one of my lecturers who collaborates with one of the groups to some extent. Also I did mention they're Chinese scientists, yeah? Their government seems to restrict information out of principle. Still, I'm reviewing that lecture in a week or two will see if there's some detail I don't remember atm if you like.

umm ok

Can you find me a peer-reviewed article backing up that sensationalist biased-looking book? I would be really surprised if it was true and none of the staff in my faculty had thought to mention it.

you know...at uni you don't learn everything there is on a particular subject. and some things might not get told. just like my professors who were also working with major construction companies didn't like to mention what dirty tricks are used in the industry.
i'm not implying a conspiracy here...but that just human nature to manipulate or ignore some things that don't benefit you at certain times.

i tried using google scholar and found some matches but you have to pay for them.
so i just have to use regular google

The second part shows that during passage in the small intestine, horizontal gene transfer occurs with some of the GM DNA moving out of GM food and into the human gut bacteria. The fact that the transgene was detected after the population was amplified ?indicates that that the DNA was stably maintained in the bacteria [over generations] and thus had integrated? into the bacterial DNA (as opposed to being present simply because the bacteria has eaten the GM material, as suggested some).

The levels of transfer were similar before and after the GM meal, suggesting ?that gene transfer did not occur during the feeding experiment? and ?that these subjects had consumed the transgene before enrolling in our study?. As they could not detect transfer of the entire transgene, the researchers concluded, ?it is unlikely that the gene transfer events seen in this study would alter gastrointestinal function or pose a risk to human health. Nevertheless, the observed survival of transgenic DNA from a GM plant during passage through the small intestine should be considered in future safety assessments of GM foods.?

We consider these findings to be very worrying as there are only small amounts of GM material in the UK diet because of the non-GM policies of most major food manufacturers and retailers. While this study indicates that a single meal may not have an immediately significant effect, it shows that the current small amounts of GMOs in the diet, present as contamination or from the use of GMOs in a small number of foods, are resulting in transformed bacteria in the human gut in the UK and these are persisting. Moreover, that the native lectin gene did not transfer is consistent with the concern that GMOs may have special characteristics that promote horizontal gene transfer. This raises serious health issues for GMOs.

http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2005/DNA-Transfer-To-Gut1jul05.htm

The problem is that many governments are leery of supporting GM research too strongly because of public opinion fuelled by misinformation campaigns of pro-organic groups play on people's fear of the unknown. That needs to stop for real progress to be made - at least in the West. China doesn't have that particular problem at least

umm..ok?

Vitamin A issue is not a problem due to crops, no, but it can be solved by them. Look at the Golden Rice project. Incidentally it is another fine example of why more, alternative funding is needed. Ingo Potrykus ran out of funding part way through development of this GM crop, and in the end had to sell the rights to Syngenta. Luckily they decided that since they were getting such a good deal for a product so far along they would make it free for use as the original research team intended - a PR stunt by Syngenta of course.

i've already said why i'd like to see compared to the situation nowadays.

 

[nurizeko]

Why would some minor genetic transfer to gut bacteria be a problem, its likely happened with non-GM foodstuffs to.

I didn't really pay attention to that so forgive me, but why should I be bricking my pants and screaming death to the GM crops?.

 

[Eejit]

you know...at uni you don't learn everything there is on a particular subject. and some things might not get told. just like my professors who were also working with major construction companies didn't like to mention what dirty tricks are used in the industry.
i'm not implying a conspiracy here...but that just human nature to manipulate or ignore some things that don't benefit you at certain times.

Like I said, outside of the US academic researchers are rarely on some company's payroll.

In actual fact I had heard of that limited gene transfer thing, it's just the first time you quoted something mentioning it they blew it so much out of proportion I thought it must be something else.


You might be wanting to have GM developed differently, but you're still linking to propaganda by the raving looneys. They can't even construct a coherent argument. One minute they'll say GM is bad because it will 'pollute' the genepool, in the next breath they will then denounce research into terminator technology. Next they attack specific early examples of imerfect implementation, and basically accuse the Big Businesses for trying to make farmers kill themselves, then they try to make the process of transfection sound scary.
What are they trying to attack? The technology itself? Its implementation? Its regulation? The answer is they'll do and say anything to try and convince people to buy their 'organic' products.

 

[jverne]

Like I said, outside of the US academic researchers are rarely on some company's payroll.

In actual fact I had heard of that limited gene transfer thing, it's just the first time you quoted something mentioning it they blew it so much out of proportion I thought it must be something else.


You might be wanting to have GM developed differently, but you're still linking to propaganda by the raving looneys. They can't even construct a coherent argument. One minute they'll say GM is bad because it will 'pollute' the genepool, in the next breath they will then denounce research into terminator technology. Next they attack specific early examples of imerfect implementation, and basically accuse the Big Businesses for trying to make farmers kill themselves, then they try to make the process of transfection sound scary.
What are they trying to attack? The technology itself? Its implementation? Its regulation? The answer is they'll do and say anything to try and convince people to buy their 'organic' products.

i'm not really against the technology but against the corporate market.
which is a totally different thing. as for the propaganda, well yeah i agree that it's not the most credible, but non the less important to an extent. because facts are facts no matter where they come from.

like you've said it:

You might be wanting to have GM developed differently

it is all i really want

 

[Danimal]

I'm all for genetically enhanced animal people, however