Getting Political with Iraq

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But I have seen people hint that the bush family is...
 
bull, the Vincennes had been in pursuit of gunboats not fighter planes

"At the time of the incident, Vincennes was within Iranian territorial waters, following an attack on and pursuit of Iranian gunboats."
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Someone calling in air support??????

Why that has never been heard of before!!!!!!!!!!

They must have been evil americans to make up such a lie and kill the people for fun!!!
 
From as near as I can tell, but I have not been able to get the full transcript of whatever press conference it happened at (no internet back then) it was George Bush Snr in 1988 commenting on the attack by the Vincennes on the Irananian air liner.

I've seen the video of the crew on the bridge attacking that airliner. Make no mistake they genuinely believed it to be an enemy aircraft coming to interecept. Reasonable assumption given they were engaging Iranian ships, near Iran. First thing that heads ur way is air cover.

So if you want to criticise America, or more appropriately, the Vincennes for this do so. But it was a mistake, in battle. It did not demonstrate that America is evil and was seeking to blow up airliners deliberately. So lets see it in context, not as evidence of America deliberately destroying passenger aircraft.
 
here's a similiar incident:


On 1_ May 198_, a ____ attack aircraft fired two _____ missiles, killing 27 sailors and wounding 31 others aboard _____.

_____ apologized, claiming "pilot error."


I'd like your reactions to this. I purposefully edited it to hide who was responsible (I've also changed the numbers so dont bother searching for the exact sentence) ...just think of it as an experiment ...thoughts anyone?
 
The USA has made mistakes shooting down planes, boats, a submarine surfaced under a Japanese trawler. Americans fired missiles at the Australian guided missile cruiser Hobart in the vietnam war, and set the deck on fire so people had to jump overboard. Mistakes happen and are regrettable. They happen to every nation during war and combat situations. But no1 has as yet, showed us anywhere, where the United States, has deliberately targetted civilian aircraft as some form of terrorism. So let's keep the criticism in context.

The Canadian soldiers who were doing drills in Afghanistan and got killed by american jets, certainly a tragedy. But if you are a pilot who sees muzzle flashes out of the cockpit window from fire on the ground, you have a few free seconds to decide to engage the target before you do, or otherwise, you are dead. Its easy for the armchair critic in the comfort of his own loungechair to say, he would have made a far better decision. I know what its like to make serious decisions under pressure. You have no time at all to make absolutely the right decision. And everyone has all of eternity to pick it to pieces afterwards.
 
thanks, you werent supposed to guess where it came from ..I just wanted comments, that's why I blocked out the figures ..but that's kind of ruined now :)
 
"On 17 May 1987, an Iraqi attack aircraft fired two Exocet missiles, killing 37 sailors and wounding 21 others aboard USS Stark (FFG 31). Iraq apologized, claiming "pilot error."

Ironically, Washington used the Stark incident to blame Iran for escalating the war and sent its own ships to the Gulf to escort eleven Kuwaiti tankers that were "reflagged" with the American flag and had American crews."

???
 
Nofuture said:
"On 17 May 1987, an Iraqi attack aircraft fired two Exocet missiles, killing 37 sailors and wounding 21 others aboard USS Stark (FFG 31). Iraq apologized, claiming "pilot error."

Ironically, Washington used the Stark incident to blame Iran for escalating the war and sent its own ships to the Gulf to escort eleven Kuwaiti tankers that were "reflagged" with the American flag and had American crews."

???
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Yes but they were Iraqi! They were evil! They did it on purpose! We have the right to believe that is escaluating conflict!

I'm not saying you folk on the right would say that, but that is how it transpired, when compared to the previous incident.

Double standards.

We can kill 500'000 innocents and any retaliation is sick and evil.
If Afghan terrorists kill a few thousand then we can attack their entire country, kill a few more thosuand... which is, of course, the price of war.
 
burner69 said:
Yes but they were Iraqi! They were evil! They did it on purpose! We have the right to believe that is escaluating conflict!
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The point is quite other here. Not Iraq, who did this, but Iran, who wasn´t involved into this accident, was blamed for escalating the war.

Double standard here too. To blame the one, who is our enemy (Iran).
At this time Saddam was a good fellow of the USA.

http://www.greenhealth.org.uk/USAVetoes.htm

"VETOED
> > During the eighties, the UN was concerned with Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons. Thus, on 3/21/1986, the Security Council President,
"speaking on behalf of the Security Council," stated that the Council members were "profoundly concerned by the unanimous conclusion of the specialists that chemical weapons on many occasions have been used by Iraqi forces against Iranian troops...[and] the members of the Council strongly condemn this continued use of chemical weapons in clear violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 which prohibits the use in war of chemical weapons" (S/17911 and Add. 1, 21 March 1986).

-the United States voted AGAINST the issuing of this statement."

What does it tell you?


And later Saddam was not a friend anymore. But why?:

Ramsey Clark:

In any case, by the late 1980s, Iraq was emerging as too powerful a nation in the Middle East. And, fatally for Iraq, it wasn't reliable enough to be our new surrogate.


What a criminal US poliy, isn´t it???
 
I would be amazingly surprised Capt Stern, if that example was of anything other than the US doing something wrong again. Which is your agenda. So I dealt with the agenda. The example is otherwise irrelevant. I even gave more examples. But pointing to mistakes in wartime, does not demonstrate anything other than, war is terrible and mistakes are made.
 
Calanen said:
I would be amazingly surprised Capt Stern, if that example was of anything other than the US doing something wrong again. Which is your agenda. So I dealt with the agenda. The example is otherwise irrelevant. I even gave more examples. But pointing to mistakes in wartime, does not demonstrate anything other than, war is terrible and mistakes are made.
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hmmm I thought it was painfully obvious what the point was. Label it what you will, but it's nothing more than an example of the double standard and hypocrisy that fuels war.


Calanen said:
Which is your agenda
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you've only been here a short while, how can you claim to know my "agenda"? This happens every single time I back the right into a corner: cant or wont answer the evidence, instead question my motivations and label me as "anti-american"

"oh what does he know, he's a lefty and anti-american ..evidence dismissed"
 
you've only been here a short while, how can you claim to know my "agenda"? This happens every single time I back the right into a corner: cant or wont answer the evidence, instead question my motivations and label me as "anti-american"
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I don't accept I have been backed into a corner. Not once.

And I still say that this is your agenda, ie anti-America, do you deny it?
 
CptStern said:
http://milkfactory.typepad.com/milkfactory/see_no_evil.jpg
Click to expand...

im glad your 'evidence' has some reality at last :D.

/me sighs in relief :)
 
you've only been here a short while, how can you claim to know my "agenda"? This happens every single time I back the right into a corner: cant or wont answer the evidence, instead question my motivations and label me as "anti-american"
Click to expand...
It is no different than you accusing everyone else of being a 'bigoted neo-con overzealous patriot'.
 
And with both sides of the argument once again firmly at each others throats, the thread died.
 
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