Good job Bush.

[burner69]

give liberals a better face by allowing happy people to be happy instead of complaining that people who disagree with you are morons. please.

Kindly quote me ever saying people who disagree with me are morons, or indeed anything of the sort.

And I apologise, when it comes to people (not all of you at all, just some) laughing off the war and other importany issues I find it hard to come back with a smile.

 

[CptStern]

'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'


- in reference to the nazi regime ...but holds true today

 

[burner69]

On a serious note I apologise to anyone who took offense to my "God bless nothing" quote. I was making a point that linking church with state can be damaging - and making posts like "God bless America" in the middle of a debate does not help issues.

 

[burner69]

'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'


- in reference to the nazi regime ...but holds true today

Thank you!
Btw I'm not a liberal, it just seems that some of my views are liberal.
I'm me.
I hate politicians, and don't like to lump myself into their categories.

Don't lump me into any group, it might offend them what with me being so grumpy :hmph:

 

[CptStern]

I dont go by labels. the quote is fitting because of the same sex issue

 

[cronholio]

I dont go by labels. the quote is fitting because of the same sex issue

Please don't be ignorant. They are not talking about rounding up same sex couples into concentration camps here. The thing you fail to understand is that many people in the US are deeply rooted in one religion or another, most of which do not condone same sex partnerships and hold marriage as a sacrament. They view the government allowing same sex marriage as a direct attack on their religion(s) and an institution they hold sacred. It's the flip side of the separation of church and state issue. Both sides have an honest gripe with the government legislating morality whichever way the issue goes. Recently, radical liberals have completely twisted seperation of church and state into their own little agenda to erradicate all forms of religion from public life, but the fact is that the ammendment was created in order to protect people who practice any religion from government interference, not to protect people from religion. There are moderate liberals who obviously understand they are treading on the first ammendment with this which is why you see them referring to these marriages as "civil unions".

People who are against same sex marriages aren't necessarily homophobic and deffinitely should not be lumped in with racist and genocidal regimes like the Nazi's. Many of them are good people who want to protect wht they preceive are their rights in the same way that homosexuals feel they are fighting for their rights.

 

[burner69]

People who are against same sex marriages aren't necessarily homophobic and deffinitely should not be lumped in with racist and genocidal regimes like the Nazi's. Many of them are good people who want to protect wht they preceive are their rights in the same way that homosexuals feel they are fighting for their rights.

Nazis were racist, dosen't mean that all racists are Nazis. I don't think that people against same sex marriage are Nazis at all.
I just disagree with preventing same sex marriage when it has no REAL effect on people, other than the homosexuals.

Good point though.

 

[cronholio]

Nazis were racist, dosen't mean that all racists are Nazis. I don't think that people against same sex marriage are Nazis at all.
I just disagree with preventing same sex marriage when it has no REAL effect on people, other than the homosexuals.

Good point though.

Well, no worries, my response wasn't directed at you. It was in response to that original quote from Pastor Niemöller which was in regard to Nazis. Earlier today on Canadian talk radio they were associating this issue with segregation. The thing is I'm a married Catholic, and while I really don't have much of a problem with the governement performing civil unions for same sex couples, I fully understand why people like my father (an old school Irish Catholic) do, and I don't think they're wrong or bad people for it. My dad's a great man, better than me, and I'm sure better than anyone on this board, very thoughtful, and when I see people write stuff like this it aggravates me a bit because they are talking about people like him.

 

[CptStern]

Please don't be ignorant. They are not talking about rounding up same sex couples into concentration camps here. The thing you fail to understand is that many people in the US are deeply rooted in one religion or another, most of which do not condone same sex partnerships and hold marriage as a sacrament. They view the government allowing same sex marriage as a direct attack on their religion(s) and an institution they hold sacred. It's the flip side of the separation of church and state issue. Both sides have an honest gripe with the government legislating morality whichever way the issue goes. Recently, radical liberals have completely twisted seperation of church and state into their own little agenda to erradicate all forms of religion from public life, but the fact is that the ammendment was created in order to protect people who practice any religion from government interference, not to protect people from religion. There are moderate liberals who obviously understand they are treading on the first ammendment with this which is why you see them referring to these marriages as "civil unions".

People who are against same sex marriages aren't necessarily homophobic and deffinitely should not be lumped in with racist and genocidal regimes like the Nazi's. Many of them are good people who want to protect wht they preceive are their rights in the same way that homosexuals feel they are fighting for their rights.

stop taking it so literally.. my intent has nothing to do with the nazi regime and concentration camps. The meaning is clear if you think a little outside the box: it's about being singled out because you are different, it's about not making a stand when a certain segment of societies rights are trampled on

 

[burner69]

Could some one please tell me why homosexuals don't have the same rights as others? Please!

 

[cronholio]

it's about being singled out because you are different, it's about not making a stand when a certain segment of societies rights are trampled on

And if you though outside the box you'd see that a very large segment of the population feels they've been singled out and their rights trampled on by PC do-gooders and the radical left, so they've spoken up in this election.

 

[CptStern]

And if you though outside the box you'd see that a very large segment of the population feels they've been singled out and their rights trampled on by PC do-gooders and the radical left, so they've spoken up in this election.

how are their rights being trampled? because gay people want marriages? how is that trampling on your rights? ...dont give me marriage is a religious institution because I'm married and it wasnt in front of the eyes of god

 

[burner69]

And if you though outside the box you'd see that a very large segment of the population feels they've been singled out and their rights trampled on by PC do-gooders and the radical left, so they've spoken up in this election.

What right? The right not to see homosexuals get married?
And why use the term 'do-gooder' as an insult. Would you prefer "evil-doers"?

 

[Javert]

shoot me...

Oho, don't worry, I'm here, and I'm reading...

Bush won fair and square. But with the House and Senate on his side, he'll have the blank check again to do as he pleases. Once again, in the name of tax relief he will burden our deficits. In the name of security he will invade other nations, alone. And in the name of society, he will curb our human rights to choose and be who we are as individuals.
If he truly wishes to bridge the gap that has now divided America, he must cross his own party ideology and acknowledge the patriotism and ideologies of other Americans. He must be the President of the United States of America, not United States of evangelists and warhawks.

Could some one please tell me why homosexuals don't have the same rights as others? Please!

Because according to them, the Bible doesn't say so. The Bible chastises them, so they must therefore be chastised.

 

[cronholio]

Could some one please tell me why homosexuals don't have the same rights as others? Please!

That's the thing, homosexuals do have all the same rights as everyone else and then some. This issue isn't about homosexuals at all for many of the people who oppose it. It's about the governement legislating morality and the separation of church and state. Many of them fear that once same sex civil unions are allowed their respective churches and religions will then come under attack, and it has infact already begun. We have gay and lesbian activists showing up at Sunday service in silent protest wearing rainbow sashes at many Catholic churches.

 

[burner69]

That's the thing, homosexuals do have all the same rights as everyone else and then some. This issue isn't about homosexuals at all for many of the people who oppose it. It's about the governement legislating morality and the separation of church and state. Many of them fear that once same sex civil unions are allowed their respective churches and religions will then come under attack, and it has infact already begun. We have gay and lesbian activists showing up at Sunday service in silent protest wearing rainbow sashes at many Catholic churches.

So if you protest on an issue you should be banned from marriage? Is that it?
I think there are better ways to oppose the seperation of Church and State than by dropping all the shit right on top of homosexuals.
Don't let your country fall back into the 60s

 

[CptStern]

That's the thing, homosexuals do have all the same rights as everyone else and then some. This issue isn't about homosexuals at all for many of the people who oppose it. It's about the governement legislating morality and the separation of church and state. Many of them fear that once same sex civil unions are allowed their respective churches and religions will then come under attack, and it has infact already begun.

so now they dont even want civil unions? ..why dont we just outlaw them from society like lepers or better still round them up and send them to san francisco :upstare:

We have gay and lesbian activists showing up at Sunday service in silent protest wearing rainbow sashes at many Catholic churches.

OMG lets burn them at the stake!!!! why do you care what someone else does? ...do you allow unmarried coupled into the church? what about adulters? ...can carl the car saleman go to sunday service with his family even though he's had some nookie on the side on his last business trip?

 

[MadHatter]

I think gay marriage should be legalized. I don't see why not.

 

[Neutrino]

That's the thing, homosexuals do have all the same rights as everyone else and then some. This issue isn't about homosexuals at all for many of the people who oppose it. It's about the governement legislating morality and the separation of church and state. Many of them fear that once same sex civil unions are allowed their respective churches and religions will then come under attack, and it has infact already begun. We have gay and lesbian activists showing up at Sunday service in silent protest wearing rainbow sashes at many Catholic churches.

Yes, the government is suppose to legistale seperation of church and state. Do you have a problem with that? Because that's what the constitution said. Also, people's rights in general benefit directly from this seperation. If you care about your own religious freedom you should care equally about the seperation of church and state.

Your under attack from people wearing bright clothing to church? Oh noes! What is this world coming to?

 

[Death.Trap]

That's the thing, homosexuals do have all the same rights as everyone else and then some. This issue isn't about homosexuals at all for many of the people who oppose it. It's about the governement legislating morality and the separation of church and state. Many of them fear that once same sex civil unions are allowed their respective churches and religions will then come under attack, and it has infact already begun. We have gay and lesbian activists showing up at Sunday service in silent protest wearing rainbow sashes at many Catholic churches.

Are you serious? Wow. A church isn't a town hall(At least, a Catholic church isn't). You don't stand around inside a church protesting against one of the fundamental beliefs of the church. You will never change anyones mind that way. And if Gays really think that the Church is going to turn around and support gay marriage because of protest, they have no idea what they are getting into.

The church's teachings are based on those of Christ and no HUMAN can modify those teachings. The Pope can add to them, and he only does that when he declares a Dogma. Which for those of you who don't know.

dogma is now understood to be a truth appertaining to faith or morals, revealed by God, transmitted from the Apostles in the Scriptures or by tradition, and proposed by the Church for the acceptance of the faithful. It might be described briefly as a revealed truth defined by the Church -- but private revelations do not constitute dogmas, and some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office. A dogma therefore implies a twofold relation: to Divine revelation and to the authoritative teaching of the Church.

 

[Neutrino]

The church's teachings are based on those of Christ and no HUMAN can modify those teachings.

Um...they've been modified by humans all throughout history.

Also people seem to have no problem interpreting those teaching in a million different ways.

 

[Death.Trap]

so now they dont even want civil unions? ..why dont we just outlaw them from society like lepers or better still round them up and send them to san francisco :upstare:




OMG lets burn them at the stake!!!! why do you care what someone else does? ...do you allow unmarried coupled into the church? what about adulters? ...can carl the car saleman go to sunday service with his family even though he's had some nookie on the side on his last business trip?

Sure, anyone can go to Mass. But it's not the place to hold a protest, even a silent one.

 

[cronholio]

so now they dont even want civil unions ..why dont we just outlaw them from society like lepers or better still round them up and send them to san francisco




OMG lets burn them at the stake!!!! why do you care what someone else does? ...do you allow unmarried coupled into the church? what about adulters? ...can carl the car saleman go to sunday service with his family even though he's had some nookie on the side on his last business trip?

See you're just being completely ridiculous now. You weren't married in a church and obviously don't hold it in the same regard as many of these other people do. That's fine. Many people out there, unfortunately for some, believe that marriage is a covenant before their God, and they don't want the government telling them they have to embrace something that goes against everything they hold sacred and in their view marginalizes what they consider to be a sacrament, a special gift from God.

As for your remarks about Church... Yeah Sunday mass is full of self righteous people and sinners of all sorts. The difference is Carl the Carl Salesman doesn't bring it into the church. He doesn't wear it on his sleeve and he doesn't use Mass as a place to stage a political protest. I think the issue is worthy of debate and protest on both sides, but in Church during Sunday mass isn't the place for it.

Like I said earlier anyway, it's a non-issue for me, I vote very selfishly. I only jumped into this because I can see both sides of it pretty clearly.

 

[CptStern]

didnt rosa parks sit in the white section of the bus in silent protest?

 

[burner69]

Are you serious? Wow. A church isn't a town hall(At least, a Catholic church isn't). You don't stand around inside a church protesting against one of the fundamental beliefs of the church. You will never change anyones mind that way. And if Gays really think that the Church is going to turn around and support gay marriage because of protest, they have no idea what they are getting into.

The church's teachings are based on those of Christ and no HUMAN can modify those teachings. The Pope can add to them, and he only does that when he declares a Dogma. Which for those of you who don't know.

Hey I agree. It's so sick that they dare wear rainbow t-shirts in church.
Gays can be Christians too y'know. Love thy neighbour and all that, let them marry.

Yeah, Christianity is such a popular religion because it can be interpreted to suit the situation. Have you ever worked on Sunday? If you have you should never show your face in church again!

 

[Death.Trap]

Um...they've been modified by humans all throughout history.

Also people seem to have no problem interpreting those teaching in a million different ways.

Exactly. People take what they want and leave the rest. That's one of the main problems with protestant religions. You can go to different methodist(just an example) churches across the US and each preacher will interpret scripture the way he thinks it should be interpreted. If you go to catholic church's-ones that don't have corrupt preist-accross the US you will find that each priest uses the standard Catholic interpretation of scripture.

 

[burner69]

Sure, anyone can go to Mass. But it's not the place to hold a protest, even a silent one.

Well considering they want to get married, and that's what they seem to be protesting about - think of somewhere else.

The bus maybe! Yes, they could wear colourful tops on the bus, that'd make people sit up and listen.

 

[Neutrino]

Exactly. People take what they want and leave the rest. That's one of the main problems with protestant religions. You can go to different methodist(just an example) churches across the US and each preacher will interpret scripture the way he thinks it should be interpreted. If you go to catholic church's-ones that don't have corrupt preist-accross the US you will find that each priest uses the standard Catholic interpretation of scripture.

True. So how do you know your interpretation is the right one?

they have to embrace something that goes against everything they hold sacred and in their view marginalizes what they consider to be a sacrament, a special gift from God.

Which I find kind of funny because nobody is trying to do that. Gay marriage doesn't even affect them.

 

[Death.Trap]

Hey I agree. It's so sick that they dare wear rainbow t-shirts in church.
Gays can be Christians too y'know. Love thy neighbour and all that, let them marry.

Yeah, Christianity is such a popular religion because it can be interpreted to suit the situation. Have you ever worked on Sunday? If you have you should never show your face in church again!

Working on sabath is perfectly acceptable. You are prohibited from doing unnessecary work on sabath. I don't know about you but I would say that working so you can pay the bills is definitely nessecary. Read my above post for the problem with people interpreting scripture to fit their own needs.

 

[MadHatter]

Are you serious? Wow. A church isn't a town hall(At least, a Catholic church isn't). You don't stand around inside a church protesting against one of the fundamental beliefs of the church. You will never change anyones mind that way. And if Gays really think that the Church is going to turn around and support gay marriage because of protest, they have no idea what they are getting into.

The church's teachings are based on those of Christ and no HUMAN can modify those teachings. The Pope can add to them, and he only does that when he declares a Dogma. Which for those of you who don't know.

You know what I find ironic about this post? I sometimes see or hear schtuff like this proclaiming that the church, or any religious text or ideology, cannot be false or modified because only mankind can be false and the church is always true. The church's teaching are based on those of Christ and no human can modify them... Hmmmm. Well, has it ever occured to you that religion and the church are inventions of mankind?

 

[Death.Trap]

True. So how do you know your interpretation is the right one?

Have you ever read up on the history of the Catholic church? Just curious.

Well considering that the Catholic church was begun by the son of God I would have to say that I'm pretty confident that the church's-not my-interpretation is correct.

 

[burner69]

Working on sabath is perfectly acceptable. You are prohibited from doing unnessecary work on sabath. I don't know about you but I would say that working so you can pay the bills is definitely nessecary. Read my above post for the problem with people interpreting scripture to fit their own needs.

I'm an athiest, so I admit my viewpoint in this situation is not necesarily as important as urs, but didn't God say: "Six days thou shall work, but on the seventh day thou shall rest"
He said that, right? So I hope everyone who opposes gay marriage works Mon-Sat.
The bible is interpreted differently to suit society - that's why Christianity is great. Don't assume it will never, and should never change again.

I would not like to be a homosexual in America now, seeing as I can now never marry. It dosen't make sense. It's outdated to say it does.

 

[Neutrino]

Have you ever read up on the history of the Catholic church? Just curious.

Some. I should probably read up on it more if I have the time.

Well considering that the Catholic church was begun by the son of God I would have to say that I'm pretty confident that the church's-not my-interpretation is correct.

It's still all based on human interpretation. You say the "church's" interpretation, but that is just avoiding the issue. That church is made up of humans. They are the ones interpreting things.

For example, I've researched what the Bible says about gay marriage. If you look at the english translations it does appear to condemn homosexual acts between men. However, if you look at the original Hebrew it is not nearly so clear. In fact, some Bibles have completly misinterpreted some passages in order to make their case against gays stronger.

 

[MadHatter]

I'm an athiest, so I admit my viewpoint in this situation is not necesarily as important as urs, but didn't God say: "Six days thou shall work, but on the seventh day thou shall rest"
He said that, right? So I hope everyone who opposes gay marriage works Mon-Sat.
The bible is interpreted differently to suit society - that's why Christianity is great. Don't assume it will never, and should never change again.

I would not like to be a homosexual in America now, seeing as I can now never marry. It dosen't make sense. It's outdated to say it does.

Concurs. The dilemma with religion and modern society is that religion is not evolving or new religions simply need to be formed.

Bah, you're an atheist. I don't like atheism, too arrogant for me. But, whatever plucks your chicken, I suppose. :cheers:

 

[Death.Trap]

I'm an athiest, so I admit my viewpoint in this situation is not necesarily as important as urs, but didn't God say: "Six days thou shall work, but on the seventh day thou shall rest"
He said that, right? So I hope everyone who opposes gay marriage works Mon-Sat.
The bible is interpreted differently to suit society - that's why Christianity is great. Don't assume it will never, and should never change again.

I would not like to be a homosexual in America now, seeing as I can now never marry. It dosen't make sense. It's outdated to say it does.

Yes he basically said that. But like I said, the Church, mainly the Pope intepret the word of God. In modern society how long do you think you would be able to hold a job if you stayed home every sunday? And yes, it's open to change. I'm not an expert in Catholic theology, I'm just sharing the small amount of info that I know of.



Also I wan't to thank you guys for not flaming me about my beliefs, tiz ggz
:cheers:

 

[Neutrino]

Bah, you're an atheist. I don't like atheism, too arrogant for me. But, whatever plucks your chicken, I suppose. :cheers:

Just curious, do you consider religion to be less arrogant than atheism?

 

[Death.Trap]

Some. I should probably read up on it more if I have the time.



It's still all based on human interpretation. You say the "church's" interpretation, but that is just avoiding the issue. That church is made up of humans. They are the ones interpreting things.

For example, I've researched what the Bible says about gay marriage. If you look at the english translations it does appear to condemn homosexual acts between men. However, if you look at the original Hebrew it is not nearly so clear. In fact, some Bibles have completly misinterpreted some passages in order to make their case against gays stronger.

The Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit when he makes official intepretations of scripture. Otherwise, like you said, it would be prone to human error.

 

[oldagerocker]

yeah american SOLDIERs..who are FIGHTING in iraq..not innocent people in the states going about there daily buisness. What do you expect during a war? Let me spell it out for you sterny boy.. no terrorist attack has happened in the states since the war.

Also those soldiers know the risk they take going to iraq.. a janitor going to work in a skyscraper shouldnt be taking the risk of getting killed in a terrorist act.

you forgot that aisde from 9/11... which could have been prevented by the Bush admistration anyway... there were no terror attacks on US Soil before or after.
The Wars have only made terrorists more persistant in attacking american soil, because of the wars, innocent iraqi's killed, arrested and generally put down by the US troops occupying their country.

Name 3 things Bush has done and 3 he will do for the American people that means he's worth your vote.

 

[MadHatter]

Also I wan't to thank you guys for not flaming me about my beliefs, tiz ggz
:cheers:

Oh no, you don't have to worry about being flamed here. The flame-tards all in the Half-Life 2 general discussion forums still arguing about Halo 2 vs. Half-Life 2. I guess these forums are too intimidating for them.

 

[Neutrino]

The Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit when he makes official intepretations of scripture. Otherwise, like you said, it would be prone to human error.

How do you know that? Would you believe me if I said I was guided by the holy spirit?