Grigori, the watcher

[Feath]

I was watching the film Dogma the other day and this came up:

"METATRON

That's the problem with you people - you need every-thing clarified. No leaps of faith w hatsoever. Alright - you want the whole secret origin? Here goes: Back in the old days, God was vengeful and hot-tempered, and his wrath was bore by the Angel of Death - name of Loki. When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed? That was Loki. When the waters wiped out everything with the exception of Noah and his menagerie? That was Loki. And he was good at what he did. But one day, he refused to bear God's wrath any longer.

BETHANY

Why?

METATRON

Because he listened to his friend - a Grigori by the name of Bartleby.

BETHANY

Grigori?

METATRON

One of the choirs of angels. They're called Watchers. Guess what they do?

BETHANY

So they're like Guardian angels?

METATRON

Exactly like that, but different."

End of quotes

I think this sheds a little light on Father Grigori. I doubt Valve chose the name of a monk that just happened to be a name of the choir of angels.

The Grigori were known to watch humanity and give assistance when needed. Maybe that's what Father Grigori will do in the game. Watch Gordon and give him assistantance when it's needed. Or maybe he watches the Combine and has been observing them.

Go to http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/watchers.html for a bit more information.

Sorry if this has been posted before. But discuss away if it hasn't.

 

[Vegeta897]

Very interesting! Good find!

 

[Thargore]

that ís mildly intriguing . :upstare:
like it when programmers/writers/directors put sóme kind of reference in stuff like that. i mean, if ya gonna name it, name it something good

 

[blahblahblah]

Valve needs to be careful. I don't want to develop preconceived ideas what all of their characters are about...

But, cool info. Thx.

 

[Sai]

i'm a huge dogma fan and i didn't even catch that, i wonder if friar grigori dies, while he's fighting zombies or something, will it be game over?

 

[Esquire]

i'm a huge dogma fan and i didn't even catch that, i wonder if friar grigori dies, while he's fighting zombies or something, will it be game over?

that's a damn good question man. I think i thought of that before. Does anybody know! What if Alyx dies?! game over? hmm, i don't know whether i'd prefer the game to restart or to just continue.

 

[iamaelephant]

Is it possible that it's just a name and you guys get so worked up over little insignificant things? Just a thought....

 

[MultiVaC]

Or is it possible people would rather discuss things instead of letting the forum rot into 'x vs. y' threads? Just a thought...

 

[Feath]

Is it possible that it's just a name and you guys get so worked up over little insignificant things? Just a thought....

It gives us insight into a character. To me, that's important.

 

[Jadewolf5675]

Grigori is the collective name for a group of angels who lost grace, they are also known as watchers. Originally it is told that the Grigori were sent to look after, guide and assist man during the beginning of civilisation. Sadly these angels were not suited to this job and instead of playing a positive role they began to teach man sciences that God had deemed to be forbidden. These subjects included astrology, divination, herb craft and magic. To compound this, they also began to lust after some of the women they were supposed to be guiding. In order to cohabitate with these women they even assumed physical forms. Although the church might argue that angels have no gender and therefore are unable to procreate anyway, the following excerpt from Genesis 6:4, points out that "the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them". The resulting half-breeds were named as the Nephilim.

This kind of bad angelic behaviour could not be tolerated and as a result the grigori were taken from their posts and imprisoned in a layer of heaven. Although they appealed to Enoch to speak on their behalf to God, they remained bound for 70 generations. As for the Nephilim, it has been suggested that one of the main reasons for the great flood, was not only to punish man, but to cleanse the earth of the half-bred creatures created from the union of fallen spirit and flesh.

Source

 

[kaf11]

very interesting indeed

 

[Sparta]

Wow, ethnic cleansing in the Bible.

 

[tCh]

Very similar to Hitler. Just a thought...

 

[Rico]

Oh be quiet...

 

[MultiVaC]

Biblical atrocities aside, Father Grigori strikes me as being somewhat forsaken. He seems to be all alone in a town of zombies, and it seems he's been there for a very long time. I wonder if he bears some kind of punishment (legitimate or otherwise) like the Grigoris in the Bible?

 

[Brian Damage]

Isn't the Metatron the "Voice of God"?

Although, heh, I've heard some people hear the word and say "Wasn't he on "Transformers"?"...

 

[Parakeet]

I would like to point out that the verse that you partialy quoted from the Bible proves your story in no way. All the Bible says is that the Sons of God had children with the daughters of men. Who the Sons of God are, whether angels or demons, we do not know. It seems probable that they are angels due to other references in the Bible to the "Sons of God" but we do not know for sure. The Bible says nothing at all about angels being sent to guide men nor about them teaching "forbidden science". There is also no mention of anything like Grigoris (or whatever you people are talking about) in the Bible. There is no mention of any sort of imprisonment for 70 generations nor an apeal to Enoch. I would also like to know where you got your information that says one of the causes for the flood was to whipe out the Nephilim. All my Bible says about the Nephilim was that they were the sons of the "Sons of God" and the "Daughters of men" and that they were men of great renown. All that you have said MAY be true, but the Bible certainly does not support it. I will go ahead and post the entire first part of Genisis 6 for those who want to read the entire thing instead of select bits.

1 When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. 5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9



In closeing I would like to say that even IF one of the reasons for the flood was to wipe out the Nephilim and God decided this is what was right and what was to be, would it not be you who is commiting the atrocity by comparing this to Hitler, ethnic cleansing, and calling it an atrocity? Are you so scandalized at this "injustice" that you choose to speak for the dead Nephilim? You who did not know them or what crimes they commited? I find it amusing that wave your finger at God and call him a bad boy after he wipes out an entire race of people. Does that seem foolish to anyone else?

Maybe the real reason for these posts is not that you care about justice at all, but you just want to take the opportunity to insult God or the Bible whenever you get the chance.

 

[MultiVaC]

Uh, off topic. I'd love to field this, really, but this isn't the place. Maybe make a thread about it in OT?

 

[Parakeet]

Its a responce to what others in this thread have said. Its on topic. If you want to discuss it in OT thats fine with me but you will have to make the thread. I have said what I wanted. If you have something to say you can say it here or put a link to there. Either way I will respond.

 

[MultiVaC]

The 'ethnic cleansing' and 'Hitler' stuff is off topic as well. It's fine by me to go off topic, especially if you feel strongly about it. I'm ok with it. But I think that you can make a new thread about it in the OT section and have a more in-depth conversation without having to use an existing thread about Father Grigori.

 

[Parakeet]

Since you want it in off topic and I don't feel like arguing with you about how off topic subjects didn't seem to bother you (you even participated in it) until my post, I just went ahead and copied and pasted my post to off topic.

 

[Parakeet]

After all that you do have something to say in response to my post right?

 

[jonnyapps]

gregori is just plain crazy in my opinion.

 

[DeltaBlast]

Grigori is the collective name for a group of angels who lost grace, they are also known as watchers. Originally it is told that the Grigori were sent to look after, guide and assist man during the beginning of civilisation. Sadly these angels were not suited to this job and instead of playing a positive role they began to teach man sciences that God had deemed to be forbidden. These subjects included astrology, divination, herb craft and magic. To compound this, they also began to lust after some of the women they were supposed to be guiding. In order to cohabitate with these women they even assumed physical forms. Although the church might argue that angels have no gender and therefore are unable to procreate anyway, the following excerpt from Genesis 6:4, points out that "the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them". The resulting half-breeds were named as the Nephilim.

This kind of bad angelic behaviour could not be tolerated and as a result the grigori were taken from their posts and imprisoned in a layer of heaven. Although they appealed to Enoch to speak on their behalf to God, they remained bound for 70 generations. As for the Nephilim, it has been suggested that one of the main reasons for the great flood, was not only to punish man, but to cleanse the earth of the half-bred creatures created from the union of fallen spirit and flesh.

Source

Sooooo... at first father Gregori will help you, but then he steals Alyx away from you? ^_^

 

[Dougy]

sweet god you people look way too far into things.

Its a guys name for christ sake, i know plenty of russians in films/books etc... that have been called grigori.... that does not mean they are freaking guardian angels.

 

[Alec_85]

AFAIK, demons can't be "Sons of God". Yes lots of demons are simply fallen angels but that's when they seize to be affiliated with God in any way. God do not control the demos. A certain fallen angel is in charge of that. He lives downstairs.

 

[Parakeet]

AFAIK, demons can't be "Sons of God". Yes lots of demons are simply fallen angels but that's when they seize to be affiliated with God in any way. God do not control the demos. A certain fallen angel is in charge of that. He lives downstairs.

The reason I question whether the "Sons of God" in this passage could be demons is because I don't know whether or not God would allow his angels to marry humans. Btw, demons are not totaly unaffiliated with God. Demons and angels fight and Satan can speak to God. Have you read the book of Job? If Satan can speak to God why shouldn't other demons be unable to? The Bible also does not say anywhere that demons are totaly unaffiliated with God. It is possible that Sons of God in this passage MAY be refering to demons. Demons are still Sons of God, he made them didn't he? Like I said before however, we have no way of KNOWING who the "Sons of God" are in this passage. It doesn't tell us specificaly nor does the Bible say specificaly who the "Sons of God" are. We can guess but we can never know.

 

[Rupertvdb]

AFAIK, demons can't be "Sons of God". Yes lots of demons are simply fallen angels but that's when they seize to be affiliated with God in any way. God do not control the demos. A certain fallen angel is in charge of that. He lives downstairs.

Ah a Milton fan...Dante had a really different way at looking at the hierachy of demons but clearly you don't suscribe to that perspective....what the hell is everyone talking about again?

 

[NeLi]

Cake. They are discussing Cake.

 

[Alec_85]

The reason I question whether the "Sons of God" in this passage could be demons is because I don't know whether or not God would allow his angels to marry humans. Btw, demons are not totaly unaffiliated with God. Demons and angels fight and Satan can speak to God. Have you read the book of Job? If Satan can speak to God why shouldn't other demons be unable to? The Bible also does not say anywhere that demons are totaly unaffiliated with God. It is possible that Sons of God in this passage MAY be refering to demons. Demons are still Sons of God, he made them didn't he? Like I said before however, we have no way of KNOWING who the "Sons of God" are in this passage. It doesn't tell us specificaly nor does the Bible say specificaly who the "Sons of God" are. We can guess but we can never know.

Well I for one have always considered demons to be low-lives if you compare them to both angels & to Satan. Satan was granted his powers & place in history by God (it would seem that Satan is somewhat like a rebel. Just like Melkor in Tolkien's Silmarillion). Demos are simply corrupted. Satan was never corrupt. He was like that from the beginning. He just didn't like the idea of being inferior to anyone & forced into believing in something he didn't approve of. He simply had a mind of his own, unlike most other angels (apparently).

If I were God, that would be the way I would think of them anyway

 

[Parakeet]

Well I for one have always considered demons to be low-lives if you compare them to both angels & to Satan. Satan was granted his powers & place in history by God (it would seem that Satan is somewhat like a rebel. Just like Melkor in Tolkien's Silmarillion). Demos are simply corrupted. Satan was never corrupt. He was like that from the beginning. He just didn't like the idea of being inferior to anyone & forced into believing in something he didn't approve of. He simply had a mind of his own, unlike most other angels (apparently).

If I were God, that would be the way I would think of them anyway

Demons once were angels. Satan was also an angel. God created them all. I don't see what the difference between Satan and his angels are that would cause God to be unaware of the demons. Even if the other demons can't dirrectly come and see God like Satan can since God it all knowing he knows everything and that includes what angels/demons are thinking. They could communicate with him that way if they wanted.

Btw Satan wanted to be God. Isaiah 14:13-14 "13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." Thats not what I would call "having a mind of your own". Thats what I would call really stupid.

 

[Frank]

This is lovely! I love it when games or movies combine religious things to its story...

 

[Alec_85]

Parakeet: Hehe yeah he might've been stupid but he dared being different & I kinda respect him for that.

 

[Parakeet]

You do know that Satan wants you to go to hell don't you? Not because he cares about you at all but because he hates God and wants to hurt God. Satan knows that God loves you and doesn't want to see you suffer and the only thing Satan can do to hurt God is to try and prevent you from going to heaven.

 

[Feath]

You do know that Satan wants you to go to hell don't you? Not because he cares about you at all but because he hates God and wants to hurt God. Satan knows that God loves you and doesn't want to see you suffer and the only thing Satan can do to hurt God is to try and prevent you from going to heaven.

Shush. This is not the thread to discuss this.

 

[NeLi]

Satan and God can suck my nipple.

 

[Alec_85]

I kinda agree with NeLi I don't care much for any form of religion. Maybe for Siths & Jedis but not much more than that

 

[el Chi]

It gives us insight into a character. To me, that's important.

Yeah maybe but I really think that might be a bit too much... After all, Grigori is a fairly stereotypical Russian/East European name. And they couldn't have called him Vladimir because that WOULD have had a stigma attached.
But on the other hand maybe not - after all, at last year's E3, the commentator on the video said that he'd laid the traps for YOU. So maybe...
But I sort of doubt it.

 

[torso boy]

sent to look after, guide, and assist man in the beginning of civilization -> Father Grigori assists gordon in surviving the zombies and other threats

forbidden sciences->
father grigori's traps

Gigoris were angels->
Father Grigori is a priest/monk, "now only has time for the work of salvation"

i'd say the name isn't just a coincidence

 

[kaf11]

one thing ive been thinking about ever since i saw the new e3 videos. gabe says he has a "thing" for zombies, and he himself says he only does the work of "salvation." now what i gather from this, is that he was a monk who lived in or goes to ravenholm, and its now infested with zombies. he views them as people trapped inside, awaiting this salvation/freedom, which he dispenses from his ceremonial shotgun.