Gun Rights Victory!

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http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_10_16-2005_10_22.shtml#1129830865

Congress Bans Abusive Anti-Gun Lawsuits:

At approximately noon, eastern time, the House of Representatives voted to pass S. 397, 283-144. The bill, known as the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act," has been endorsed by the White House, and now goes to the President for his signature.

The bill is the culmination a decade of tort reform work, aimed at addressing the problem of abusive lawsuits against gun manufacturers. The bill is an excellent exercise of the congressional power over interstate commerce, for precisely the purpose for which Congress was originally granted that power: the billis necessary and proper to stop local governments from interfering with interstate commerce, including by attempting to use a verdict in a single state court to impose national firearms controls which have been rejected by Congress and by all state governments.

S. 397 is also a proper exercise of Congressional power under section 5 of the 14th Amendment, to prevent local governments, including local courts, from infringing the Second Amendment rights (and the parallel state constitutional rights in 44 states) which are guaranteed to all law-abiding Americans.

In addition, the bill is also a necessary and proper exercise of the Congressional war power, because the civilian firearms industry is now, and always has been, essential to the production of firearms for the military. Without a robust civilian firearms industry, manufacturers who had to produce only for a military or police market would have to charge much higher prices, and would innovate far less. Almost every gun ever used by the U.S. military was originally developed for the civilian market. Accordingly, the Department of Defense stated that is "strongly supports" S. 397 because the bill "would help safeguard our national security by limiting unnecessary lawsuits against an industry that plays a critical role in meeting the procurement needs of our men and women in uniform."

Thirty-four states had already enacted their own laws to prohibit such suits, but Congressional action was necessary to ensure that a single court in one of the hold-out states did not attempt to destroy the U.S. firearms industry, or to impose the will of a single judge as a national system of firearms restrictions.

The Brady Center, the instigator of the abusive suits, has already expressed its intention to fight the new federal law in court. Significantly, no court anywhere in the United States has ever ruled in favor of similar challenges to the state statutes restricting abusive lawsuits against Second Amendment rights.

The Senate added two unrelated items to S. 397, both of which have caused concern among some Second Amendment activists:

First, the bill increases the already severe mandatory minimum sentences for use of armor-piercing ammunition in a violent or drug trafficking crime. Mandatory minimums are generally a bad idea, but since actual armor-piercing ammunition, as defined by federal law, is very rare, the practical effect of the new sentences will be very small.

Second, the bill requires all licensed firearms dealers to include a locking mechanism with each handgun they sale. Almost every American manufacturer already includes a lock (either an internal lock or, more commonly, a cable lock or trigger lock), with every new gun.

Accordingly, the main effect of S. 397's lock provision will be to force sellers of used handguns to raise their price by several dollars to provide customers an item that the customer may not need. (For example, the customer may already own a gun safe, or may plan to keep the handgun always ready for self-defense, so that it should not be locked up.)

The bill also provides civil immunity for persons who use locking devices. There have been a few state court cases in which guns were effectively treated as ultra-hazardous products, and gun owners whose guns were stolen and used in a crime were found civilly liable, even though their guns had been stored in a safe.

Both of the extra provisions have slippery slope risks: Senator Kennedy and a significant number of Senators favor expanding the definition of "armor-piercing" ammunition so as to include the vast majority of conventional rifle ammunition. And several states have enacted dangerous laws which require handguns to be locked up, and thus inaccessible for emergency self-defense.

However, the future dangers of slippery slopes are far outweighed by the immediate threat posed by abusive lawsuits. On the whole, S. 397 is an immense victory for constitutional rights.

For background on the abusive lawsuit issue, you may wish to read some of the ten articles I've written on the subject, including the 1995 Seton Hall Legislative Journal article which argued that courts should protect the Second Amendment from abusive lawsuits, just as they protected the First Amendment from abusive lawsuits in New York Times v. Sullivan. But even better than judicially-created protection is legislatively-created protection. Today's bi-partisan vote is a tremendous victory for the constitutional rights of citizens, and is the result of Congress exercising its powers for precisely the pro-freedom reasons for which those powers were granted to Congress by the American people.
 
rock on! :thumbs:
I love the Second Amendment, almost more than the First
 
I hate guns. I only like guns in the form of airsoft, paintball... replica, or in games. Real guns scare the **** outta me(not literally, but their usage).

I'd be more comfortable if everybody had bows and arrows instead.
 
AWESOME! People now can kill other people MORE EASILY!

now with ketchup dispenser!
 
Ennui said:
AWESOME! People now can kill other people MORE EASILY!

now with ketchup dispenser!
This makes harsher penalties for abuse, particularly involving armor piercing rounds. So.. it doesn't make it any harder or easier to actually kill, it makes it worse for you to try to though. :thumbs:
 
Its a bandaid solution to a broken legal system IMO.

The US needs the equivalent of the Australian Civil Liability Act (nsw) to reform negligence & other tort laws, and then they wouldnt need to pass bills like this one.
 
mankind needs to quit figuring out better ways to kill each other and start figuring out how to help each other survive, more like
 
bliink said:
Its a bandaid solution to a broken legal system IMO.

The US needs the equivalent of the Australian Civil Liability Act (nsw) to reform negligence & other tort laws, and then they wouldnt need to pass bills like this one.
Googled it after you posted, that looks good. We do need it.

Ennui said:
mankind needs to quit figuring out better ways to kill each other and start figuring out how to help each other survive, more like
What? This is about lawsuits. lol.

Whole issue is basically- some thug shoots and kills someone's husband. They then sue the manufacturer of the gun for it.
 
I still think they should impose taxes on guns and distribute the money to victims of gun crimes. If they can tax cigerettes they should tax guns too.
 
JellyWorld said:
I still think they should impose taxes on guns and distribute the money to victims of gun crimes. If they can tax cigerettes they should tax guns too.
cigarette tax is a 'sin' tax, and also because the government knows it can get big money from it.

However, gun ownership is in no way deserving of a 'sin' tax to imply it's bad to own firearms.
 
Let's face it, if there were less guns there would be less murders. You can have your gun rights if you want but at least take some responsibility for the murders the legalization of guns results it.
 
correction, if people in general were less prone to violence, there would be less murders. However as it is very clear that people in general are quite prone towards violence, assuming you are a responsible law abiding citizen, you should be able to arm yourself in an apprpriate manner. Meanwhile, gun manufacturers should be able to do their job without having to worry about a lawsuit everytime a gun works exactly as it should, (i.e. putting a small metal spike or cloud of pellets through someone)
 
My heart certainly goes out to those poor gun manufacturers. Lord knows people need to look out for their welfare. Truly this is a victory for the greater good, and I'm sure the fact that the US is the largest supplier of firearms on Earth had absolutely nothing to do with it. Let's not dilute the real issue at hand, gun companies need protection.

Bravo.

f***ing 'tards.
 
That justfacts site does use 'just facts.'

However, very a very large portion of those I've read are, frankly, misleadingly documented and used as proofs when facts alone do not do that.

Example:

* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)
Obviously JustFacts is saying that if guns were removed from the country, homicide rates would triple.

But why list only homicides when guns are used in most any type of violent crime?
What numbers are being left out? Maybe armed roberies fell 100%? Maybe gun-based rapes only rose 10%?
The website does not address this omission, as it provides 'just facts'.

Also, the quote there uses the national average as a 'control' to show the unchanged version of DC as a contrast.
But why compare Washington DC to the national average, and not to an urban city of similar population density?
Remember that the vast majority of the US is not covered with large cities.
Just facts isn't concerned about scientific procedure though, because they are only presenting 'just facts'.

That little (1) at the end means something too. Scroll down to the footnotes:
"TEN MYTHS ABOUT GUN CONTROL." Viewed in January of 1999 on the National Rifle Association web site, www.nra.org
Wait, that's their unbiased source of 'just facts' on gun control?
Also, was this an NRA article? Newspost? Link? Quote from a study? The footnote doesn't say.
If someone can find the information from that date on the listed website, please tell me, because I could not.
The 'facts' have been all but completely stripped of their context. Only Jesus knows how the NRA came to that 200% figure.

So the site might provide 'just facts.' But that's all it gives you. What it fails to do is provide adequate, well-documented facts.
It gives laypeople an incomplete picture and asks them to fill in the blanks for themselves. But the justfacts people pick and choose what parts to show, while using this hands-off manipulation as an illusion of non-partisanship.

It's frankly bad science, and not actual research. Either it's deliberately misleading or an amateur project.
Either way, wouldn't trust that website as far as I could throw it. And you can't throw a website.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:

It doesnt matter how many websites anyone quotes, all the stats in them are highly subjective, the writing is always biased, and the arguments themselves from both sides are very easily attacked.

Its a relentless back and forth from two groups of people, neither of whom have an effective solution to any of the problems regarding guns.

Theres only two ways you could solve the gun/crime issue.

1) Remove all guns.
Pros: No more gun violence, far reduced "binary choice" violence.
Cons: This is impossible. You cannot suppress man's ability to produce weapons until you can suppress his basic mental constitution.

2) Absolutely everyone has guns and unrestricted use of them.
Pros: Violence cancels itself out, no "lone nuts" can get too far.
Cons: This is impossible. Forgetting the logistical and financial impossibilites of doing this, you cannot give people unrestricted use of a weapon hoping that a cold-war style deterance system will prevail. Sure, one violent person with a gun will be canceled out by another, but there will be a shitload more carnage in between, and if everyone has them, it wont be long before guns are replaced by the neo-gun.. some other invention that plays the same role as a gun. Not limited to a weapon.. it could be drugs or sex or something like that.
 
Of course. Justfacts.com itself even admits a conservative bias in their ethos dealy. I was just referencing the Ten Myths as he asked for it.

Our current system (could use some tweaks, but it is effective) is good. I support Class III registration and such, people can have heavier weaponry but 'not just anyone' can.

Felons being restricted is also a big thing, and a big issue pushed by the NRA (NRA pushes for extremely harsh penalties for crimes involving guns and for banishment of ownership by felons, which we've got)

I'm glad this bill makes the armor piercing offense penalty stricter, too.
 
this bill is outrageous, i NEEDED those armor piercing rounds for hunting the children.
 
gh0st said:
this bill is outrageous, i NEEDED those armor piercing rounds for hunting the children.

Unless they're illegal (not that I'm aware of) the bill just makes the punishment for crimes involving them extremely harsh.

I thought this was funny, from justfacts-
:LOL:

* In an October of 1996 campaign stop, Bill Clinton met with the widow of Police Officer Jerome Harrison Seaberry. Later at a political rally, Bill Clinton cited Officer Seaberry's death as a reason to outlaw armor piercing bullets. (7)

* Officer Seaberry died in a car crash. No guns or bullets were involved. (7)

* Armor piercing bullets have been referred to in the media as "cop killers." (37)

* As of 1998, no law enforcement officer has ever been killed because an armor-piercing bullet defeated a bulletproof vest. (3)
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
* As of 1998, no law enforcement officer has ever been killed because an armor-piercing bullet defeated a bulletproof vest. (3)

what about pre-dating 1998?

Also, what are the applications of AP bullets for civilians anyway?

In Australia, AP rounds are banned completely, and all kinds of bullet proof vests are also banned.
50 cent tried to go on tour here, and customs wouldnt let him bring his trademark vest, so I dont know if he ended up doing his tour.
 
bliink said:
what about pre-dating 1998?

Also, what are the applications of AP bullets for civilians anyway?

In Australia, AP rounds are banned completely, and all kinds of bullet proof vests are also banned.
50 cent tried to go on tour here, and customs wouldnt let him bring his trademark vest, so I dont know if he ended up doing his tour.
I thought "as of DATE" meant everything up to that date. "As of October 22, 2005 (today) I've never licked an eyeball"

Could be wrong but that's what I've always thought.

AP rounds are for penetrating armor in case you need to shoot someone who's wearing armor. There are more reasons to own a firearm than plinking and hunting, defense from criminals or oppressors is a big one.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
I thought "as of DATE" meant everything up to that date. "As of October 22, 2005 (today) I've never licked an eyeball"

Could be wrong but that's what I've always thought.

ah yeah.. that would make more sense

RakuraiTenjin said:
AP rounds are for penetrating armor in case you need to shoot someone who's wearing armor. There are more reasons to own a firearm than plinking and hunting, defense from criminals or oppressors is a big one.

The US should just ban body armour and AP rounds.. banning both would eliminate the need for both. This would save the consumer money, which is exactly why they wont be banned- because if an industry makes money from AP rounds and kevlar, then the government makes money.
Honestly, I can't see why it would be a different case.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_10_16-2005_10_22.shtml#1129830865

Congress Bans Abusive Anti-Gun Lawsuits:

At approximately noon, eastern time, the House of Representatives voted to pass S. 397, 283-144. The bill, known as the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act," has been endorsed by the White House, and now goes to the President for his signature.

The bill is the culmination a decade of tort reform work, aimed at addressing the problem of abusive lawsuits against gun manufacturers. The bill is an excellent exercise of the congressional power over interstate commerce, for precisely the purpose for which Congress was originally granted that power: the billis necessary and proper to stop local governments from interfering with interstate commerce, including by attempting to use a verdict in a single state court to impose national firearms controls which have been rejected by Congress and by all state governments.

S. 397 is also a proper exercise of Congressional power under section 5 of the 14th Amendment, to prevent local governments, including local courts, from infringing the Second Amendment rights (and the parallel state constitutional rights in 44 states) which are guaranteed to all law-abiding Americans.

In addition, the bill is also a necessary and proper exercise of the Congressional war power, because the civilian firearms industry is now, and always has been, essential to the production of firearms for the military. Without a robust civilian firearms industry, manufacturers who had to produce only for a military or police market would have to charge much higher prices, and would innovate far less. Almost every gun ever used by the U.S. military was originally developed for the civilian market. Accordingly, the Department of Defense stated that is "strongly supports" S. 397 because the bill "would help safeguard our national security by limiting unnecessary lawsuits against an industry that plays a critical role in meeting the procurement needs of our men and women in uniform."

Thirty-four states had already enacted their own laws to prohibit such suits, but Congressional action was necessary to ensure that a single court in one of the hold-out states did not attempt to destroy the U.S. firearms industry, or to impose the will of a single judge as a national system of firearms restrictions.

The Brady Center, the instigator of the abusive suits, has already expressed its intention to fight the new federal law in court. Significantly, no court anywhere in the United States has ever ruled in favor of similar challenges to the state statutes restricting abusive lawsuits against Second Amendment rights.

The Senate added two unrelated items to S. 397, both of which have caused concern among some Second Amendment activists:

First, the bill increases the already severe mandatory minimum sentences for use of armor-piercing ammunition in a violent or drug trafficking crime. Mandatory minimums are generally a bad idea, but since actual armor-piercing ammunition, as defined by federal law, is very rare, the practical effect of the new sentences will be very small.

Second, the bill requires all licensed firearms dealers to include a locking mechanism with each handgun they sale. Almost every American manufacturer already includes a lock (either an internal lock or, more commonly, a cable lock or trigger lock), with every new gun.

Accordingly, the main effect of S. 397's lock provision will be to force sellers of used handguns to raise their price by several dollars to provide customers an item that the customer may not need. (For example, the customer may already own a gun safe, or may plan to keep the handgun always ready for self-defense, so that it should not be locked up.)

The bill also provides civil immunity for persons who use locking devices. There have been a few state court cases in which guns were effectively treated as ultra-hazardous products, and gun owners whose guns were stolen and used in a crime were found civilly liable, even though their guns had been stored in a safe.

Both of the extra provisions have slippery slope risks: Senator Kennedy and a significant number of Senators favor expanding the definition of "armor-piercing" ammunition so as to include the vast majority of conventional rifle ammunition. And several states have enacted dangerous laws which require handguns to be locked up, and thus inaccessible for emergency self-defense.

However, the future dangers of slippery slopes are far outweighed by the immediate threat posed by abusive lawsuits. On the whole, S. 397 is an immense victory for constitutional rights.

For background on the abusive lawsuit issue, you may wish to read some of the ten articles I've written on the subject, including the 1995 Seton Hall Legislative Journal article which argued that courts should protect the Second Amendment from abusive lawsuits, just as they protected the First Amendment from abusive lawsuits in New York Times v. Sullivan. But even better than judicially-created protection is legislatively-created protection. Today's bi-partisan vote is a tremendous victory for the constitutional rights of citizens, and is the result of Congress exercising its powers for precisely the pro-freedom reasons for which those powers were granted to Congress by the American people.
I'm tired and I don't feel like reading. Summarize it in one sentence.
 
Ennui said:
AWESOME! People now can kill other people MORE EASILY!

now with ketchup dispenser!
Yeah we can play for keeps now.
 
bvasgm said:
I'm tired and I don't feel like reading. Summarize it in one sentence.
If you're shot by a gun, you can't sue the company that made the gun.
and other minor things (some tweaks in punishment for gun offenses, AP round offenses carry harsher penalties now)

bliink said:
The US should just ban body armour and AP rounds.. banning both would eliminate the need for both. This would save the consumer money, which is exactly why they wont be banned- because if an industry makes money from AP rounds and kevlar, then the government makes money.
Honestly, I can't see why it would be a different case.
Um.. the need for body armor doesn't come from AP rounds, it comes from any bullet. So the arguement that banning both eliminates the need for both is faulty, because there would still be a need for body armor even if AP rounds are banned. And the point of AP is to go through that armor.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
Um.. the need for body armor doesn't come from AP rounds, it comes from any bullet. So the arguement that banning both eliminates the need for both is faulty, because there would still be a need for body armor even if AP rounds are banned. And the point of AP is to go through that armor.

what I was saying is that if you didnt have any armour, then there would be no need for AP, and if theres no AP... well.. er.. yes! I confused myself. :rolleyes: Not having a great one today.. well.. at least some of my argument makes sense
 
bliink said:
what I was saying is that if you didnt have any armour, then there would be no need for AP, and if theres no AP... well.. er.. yes! I confused myself. :rolleyes: Not having a great one today.. well.. at least some of my argument makes sense
Hehe yeah you still need armor for regular bullets (although, as the box o truth website will show, it's a game of chance anyway)
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
Hehe yeah you still need armor for regular bullets (although, as the box o truth website will show, it's a game of chance anyway)

My old work had armour but it was only for knives/blunt objects.. and you still needed special authority from the government.
 
bliink said:
My old work had armour but it was only for knives/blunt objects.. and you still needed special authority from the government.
I'm not sure what the rules are here but you may need to here too. No idea really though, just guessing.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Check that out, I think you'd like it (It's cool even for people who aren't gun enthusiasts or anything too. Lots of interesting info)

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm
Fragmentation Armor shot with various rounds

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
Level IIIA Armor shot with various rounds
 
ríomhaire said:
What weapons are illegal in america?
I'm actually not sure- it varies, some things are illegal on the federal level, some are illegal in different states, and some 'parts' that can be swapped for substitutes are illegal.

It all depends on your classifications and paperwork. There was a video of a tank at the Knob Creek Range though once.
 
ríomhaire said:
What weapons are illegal in america?

For civilians, I think its just tactical nuclear weapons.... unless you're in texas.. ;)
 
bliink said:
For civilians, I think its just tactical nuclear weapons.... unless you're in texas.. ;)
LOL. Bush probably has a few megaton(ne?) bombs hidden under his house,
 
GUN RIGHTS VICTORY!!!

peoples lives in more danger! yyayyyy *does the happy dance* :|
 
I'm a texan! I need my nukes to go squirrel hunting! Cruise missiles are great for taking out deer silently, too!

Yeee haww!


Bah. I hate guns.
 
sweet I can't wait to get my assault rifle and armor piercing bullets to go... hunting...yeah its dear season can't wait to go do that..hunting..

seriously who needs these weapons..the most I could understand was a 9mm pistol for "self defense"..im confident that no one needs assault weapons for self defense
 
Only a country without working law enforcement would allow ordinary people to buy firearms.
 
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