HDR Graphics...An amazing technology.

[x84D80Yx]

hmm shit...

g4 ti4200...is that dx7 or dx8? even tho i installed dx9 will it make a difference? im scared now

lol

EDIT: just checked my box for my card. says it is dx8.1
whew!! i feel alot better now..

but i downloaded dx9..so am i still using dx8.1 with dx9 installed or am i totally using dx9

 

[kelisis]

Originally posted by nw909
Games making you blind from looking at the sun would have a whole lotta lawsuits on their asses.

Haha, yeah in Delta Force Black Hawk Down, you will go blind after staring at the sun for the 5 mins and then it will say, "Didn't your mom ever tell you not to look at the sun!" lol...Yeah, Valve officals have confirmed they want people to see all the cool stuff when HL2 comes out, so we will just have to wait. :cheers:

 

[nw909]

Originally posted by kelisis
Haha, yeah in Delta Force Black Hawk Down, you will go blind after staring at the sun for the 5 mins and then it will say, "Didn't your mom ever tell you not to look at the sun!" lol...Yeah, Valve officals have confirmed they want people to see all the cool stuff when HL2 comes out, so we will just have to wait. :cheers:

lol, really?

Never played that game.

 

[Apos]

I thought D3 had since added soft shadows... or was that only for ambient (outside) light sources?

Dynamic shadows in HL2 appear to be sharp also, so self-shading models (or at least faces) would look kind of lame.

I'm not sure exactly what you are reffering to, but if you mean the way static lightmaps get cast over models, this transition looks pretty smooth and soft-edged.

 

[kelisis]

Originally posted by nw909
lol, really?

Never played that game.

Yeah, it's a fun multiplayer game, but not worth buying now, because in November Joint Ops is coming out, which is a modifed version of the Black Hawk Down engine and it will be alot better....Anyways, let's get back on topic..

 

[Goombatommy]

Originally posted by x84D80Yx
hmm shit...

g4 ti4200...is that dx7 or dx8? even tho i installed dx9 will it make a difference? im scared now

lol

EDIT: just checked my box for my card. says it is dx8.1
whew!! i feel alot better now..

but i downloaded dx9..so am i still using dx8.1 with dx9 installed or am i totally using dx9

Your card is DX 8. Your safe. Doesnt matter if you had DX 9 or not, your card only supports features DX 8 and under. Cards like Radeon 9700/9800, GF FX 5800/5900 etc. support DX 9 features.

 

[x84D80Yx]

thx bro^

 

[dscowboy]

Originally posted by Apos
I thought D3 had since added soft shadows... or was that only for ambient (outside) light sources?

Maybe, but I haven't seen any D3 screenshots with soft shadows yet. Maybe someone better versed in D3 lore than myself can shed some light on this.

I'm not sure exactly what you are reffering to, but if you mean the way static lightmaps get cast over models, this transition looks pretty smooth and soft-edged.

Based on what I've read and seen in the videos, there are 3 different lighting models in HL2:

1) Static lightmaps which are generated when the map is compiled, similar to HL1 lightmaps. You can see in the Barricade video that lightmaps create soft shadows on map geometry (brushes), but do NOT shade models properly. When the City-17 people walk through the light areas where the sun shines through the windows in the ruined building, their models suddenly become 'bright'; they are not evaluated per pixel or per poly. This is exactly the same way lightmaps worked in HL1.

2) Dynamic lighting. The translated SIGGRAPH article says something about "there can only be one dynamic light per area", whatever that means. Per map? Per room? Who knows. The dynamic lights allow the models to cast shadows on the map geometry, but not on other models. These shadows appear to be sharp in the videos.

3) Surface shading. The 'brightness' of each poly (or pixel, if normal-mapped) is determined by surface shading, which calculates the difference between the light source vector and the surface normal vector. I assume the 'light source' in this case is the dynamic light.

Does that make sense?

EDIT - We end up with these scenarios:

-Map geometry can shade map geometry via static lightmaps
-Map geometry can shade models via lightmaps, but all-or-nothing (not per poly)
-Models can create shadows on map geometry dynamically with a single dynamic light at a time
-Models cannot create shadows on themselves or other models
-The polys (or pixels) of models are shaded by the relation of their normals to the dynamic light source.

Confusing, I know.

 

[Xtasy0]

if you have a DX9 card you get soft dynamic shadows from models.

 

[dscowboy]

Originally posted by Xtasy0
if you have a DX9 card you get soft dynamic shadows from models.

I read that too but it sure doesn't look that way in the videos. Wouldn't they run the demos on DX9 hardware?

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by dscowboy
I read that too but it sure doesn't look that way in the videos. Wouldn't they run the demos on DX9 hardware?

yeah, you'd think so.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by Apos
I'm also confused by that article (at least they TRIED to translate it, even if it's really about as confusing as the BABELFISH version). It says that self-shadowing isn't in the game... yet we've heard several times that it is, and that models self-shadow. If I understand the feature correctly, we can even SEE it happening on characters like Alyx and Kliener in the lab video.

There's definitely self shadowing on the characters in HL2. Obviously not on everything though.

Originally posted by jhero
My bet is on ATi.

This is not ATI technology...

 

[dscowboy]

Originally posted by Lifthz
There's definitely self shadowing on the characters in HL2. Obviously not on everything though.

No, read my post. There's a difference between surface shading and shadows.

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Apos
I'm also confused by that article (at least they TRIED to translate it, even if it's really about as confusing as the BABELFISH version). It says that self-shadowing isn't in the game... yet we've heard several times that it is, and that models self-shadow. If I understand the feature correctly, we can even SEE it happening on characters like Alyx and Kliener in the lab video.

gabe said G-Man's eyes self shadow....well i guess all characters eyes self shadow.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by dscowboy
No, read my post. There's a difference between surface shading and shadows.

Ah, you're correct. Hmm... I should've noticed that, however it's just that Valve had actually said there was self shadowing... meh

Anyway. Self shadowing doesn't look stupid... it adds realism. I think it's just that the shadowing in Doom 3 is very heavy (dark)... and doesn't have too much transperancy as in real life. A good example of better lighting is Halo 2(xbox) which uses photon mapping (the mapping isn't done in real time).

 

[MaDMaXX]

Although I am sorry, I can't give shader-related information beyond this up to now. At present, only information I can tell is that, as for "Half-Life2", programmable shader 2.0 or 2.0+ also works really well.
As a matter of fact, authoring to high-end GPU is under advance now.

This is a good answer, and only badly translated from Japanese, i think it shows thats they are putting more work into the effect on things like the 5900 and 9800 cards, it looks like getting a full dx9 card is worth it more than before?

 

[jhero]

Originally posted by Lifthz
There's definitely self shadowing on the characters in HL2. Obviously not on everything though.



This is not ATI technology...

Then who's?

 

[Gorgon]

This is DX9.0x technology

 

[Guest]

Enter: The Future!!1111111

 

[Anthraxxx]

Originally posted by Spiffae
well, actually, no, you probably haven't. Lens flares as they have been typified in games are the product of a bright light (the sun) shining through a multi-element lens. If you've ever taken apart a video camera or SLR lens, you'll see that there are between 3 and 20 glass elements between the film or CCD and the front objective lens. every time the light passes through, a tiny percentage of that light is reflected, rather than being refracted. in normal situations, that tiny percentage is invisible, but the sun is so bright that .05 percent of the sun's brightess is still enough to be printed on the film or video. a realistic rendering of the sun's effect is seen in IL-2 sturmovik. from first person view, if you look at the sun, there is a huge glare effect, but no further elements. there is just a big glare around the sun. in third person view, the sun's glare is still present, but the flare also has many added elements to simulate a true camera flare. check out the demo if you want to see more.

to get back to my main point you can't see a lens flare with your naked eye, glasses or not. (well, unless you were looking through an SLR lens.)

No. I do get lens flare. It's not the kind of lens flare that you get with a camera lens though, yanno- its all angular shaped... The lens flare I get is circular in shape.... I'm looking at the sun right now and I see lens flare...

 

[Dagobert]

Actually I might find that intensly annoying. People's eyes adjust differently, and unless the effect was done very expertly, I think it could be a detrimental effect.

Do you think that when you watch TV or a movie? 'oh that's annoying the way the camera automatically adjusted it's exposure, my eyes would have adjusted slightly earlier'?

No, you don't.

 

[Apos]

Cowboy, your "1" is wrong. While I agree that it doesn't happen in the Barricade video, it DOES happen elsewhere. It happens in the lab video (watch kliener step into the light when he turns to the computer). Watch the combine step out of the shadows in the traptown video. Even watch it happening on the view models in the start of the traptown vid (a shadow sliding over the gravity gun)

We don't yet know why it happens in some places and not others, but it does happen.

 

[mrchimp]

There's HDR in 3dmark03 nature demo (not the benchmark version) which isn't used to make it more realistic but instead make it look more fairytale which works really well in my opinion.

On the subject of soft dynamic shadows ie the ones that use stencil's someone told me that they arn't possible yet but I think there wrong, blurring the edges of shadows wouldn't be too hard to do, would it? Getting them so they are sharper and softer at certain distances and angles from the light to the object casting the shadow certainly isn't possible yet (that made no sense).

 

[Apos]

Here's a little animated gif I made of what I'm talking about.

Also, what they mean by "one dynamic light per area" is likely the light that defines which way the textured shadows face. Check out the shadow cast on the building by the strider in the strider vid. I'm guessing that what they are saying is that if this scene took place at night, and there were streetlamps, there could still only be ONE shadow cast instead of a shadow for every light, cast in a different direction.

However, maybe they do mean that there can be one actual dynamic (moveable) light (with shadows) cast on world geometry per area. But I doubt it, cus we've yet to hear or see anything like that.

 

[RoyGBiv]

Originally posted by Apos
Cowboy, your "1" is wrong. While I agree that it doesn't happen in the Barricade video, it DOES happen elsewhere. It happens in the lab video (watch kliener step into the light when he turns to the computer). Watch the combine step out of the shadows in the traptown video. Even watch it happening on the view models in the start of the traptown vid (a shadow sliding over the gravity gun)

We don't yet know why it happens in some places and not others, but it does happen.

but it only happens to half of the models in the video. most of the time when it does appear to be models interacting with shadows you see lights above them, probably dynamic. but anything that resembles a static light you get the pop, which is very dissapointing.

 

[Apos]

but it only happens to half of the models in the video. most of the time when it does appear to be models interacting with shadows you see lights above them, probably dynamic. but anything that resembles a static light you get the pop, which is very dissapointing.

No, it only happens in certain videos. And there is no difference in the lights for which this does and doen't happen (the lights in traptown are no less static than those in barricade). My guess is that it was disabled in certain scenes either because it wasn't finished or for performance reasons.

 

[dscowboy]

Apos, you're right, in traptown the combine definitely seem to be evaluated per-poly against the lightmaps. RoyGBiv, watch the combine as they step into the area before the big log-thing swings.

But at the beginning of traptown if you watch the viewmodel, right before the gif you pointed out, it 'pops'. The first time it goes into the light it pops, but then the second time is a smooth transition. wierd.

I also noticed that the dynamic shadows in traptown appear to be soft. Watch the first zombie's shadow, and the shadow of the propeller. Or is that just the effect of them being blended with the ground textures?

Could it be that different builds were used for the videos? The way the combine walk out of the shadows in traptown is very different from the way the city-17 guys walk through the lightmap in barricade. I can't think of how else that could happen unless different builds were used.

 

[Gashtar]

Originally posted by Anthraxxx
No. I do get lens flare. It's not the kind of lens flare that you get with a camera lens though, yanno- its all angular shaped... The lens flare I get is circular in shape.... I'm looking at the sun right now and I see lens flare...

Keep looking...

 

[RoyGBiv]

Originally posted by dscowboy
Apos, you're right, in traptown the combine definitely seem to be evaluated per-poly against the lightmaps. RoyGBiv, watch the combine as they step into the area before the big log-thing swings.

But at the beginning of traptown if you watch the viewmodel, right before the gif you pointed out, it 'pops'. The first time it goes into the light it pops, but then the second time is a smooth transition. wierd.

I also noticed that the dynamic shadows in traptown appear to be soft. Watch the first zombie's shadow, and the shadow of the propeller. Or is that just the effect of them being blended with the ground textures?

Could it be that different builds were used for the videos? The way the combine walk out of the shadows in traptown is very different from the way the city-17 guys walk through the lightmap in barricade. I can't think of how else that could happen unless different builds were used.

yes i noticed the smooth transistions but i was stating that throughout the video there are instances of both. seems most of the time the nice shadowing comes from the street lamps. watch it some more and you will notice alot more pop ins.

 

[Dagobert]

Apos, you're right, in traptown the combine definitely seem to be evaluated per-poly against the lightmaps. RoyGBiv, watch the combine as they step into the area before the big log-thing swings.

[being picky] that would be a per-vertex, rather than per-poly detection [/being picky]

I also noticed that the dynamic shadows in traptown appear to be soft. Watch the first zombie's shadow, and the shadow of the propeller. Or is that just the effect of them being blended with the ground textures?

Valve are using the slightly lower-tech projected texture system for shodows, for which soft edges are much easier(faster) than if you use shadow volumes like D3.

 

[Dagobert]

double post

 

[Incitatus]

funny thread, didn't read all of it.

Dudes you can't see HDRI info on your screen. Your screen displays brightness between 0 and 255. What makes images rendered using HDRI (high dynamic range images) as light sources so realistic is the scalability of the light values or 'exposure times' you can use.

In other words the contrast between light/dark areas. You can't see this contrast, it's just in the file. But when it's used as a light source and for reflections etc. it results in much more realistic lighting.

HL2 uses HDRI's? HDR calculations are very processor intensive, so I very much doubt it (I do mainly high poly stuff, so I've been using HDRI for quite some time). They probably build in some support just in case.

 

[A_M]

Here's another really cool demo that features Real-Time High Dynamic Range Lighting (as well as other cool features such as Depth of Field and various Glare effects):
http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/

Real-time HDR is definately going to be a major step towards near-photorealistic realtime rendering.

 

[MrD]

This stuff looks cool.

I like the idea of looking down a dark tunnel at the bright outside, but its too bright to see well until you step out into the light.

 

[mrchimp]

Originally posted by Incitatus
funny thread, didn't read all of it.

Dudes you can't see HDRI info on your screen. Your screen displays brightness between 0 and 255. What makes images rendered using HDRI (high dynamic range images) as light sources so realistic is the scalability of the light values or 'exposure times' you can use.

In other words the contrast between light/dark areas. You can't see this contrast, it's just in the file. But when it's used as a light source and for reflections etc. it results in much more realistic lighting.

HL2 uses HDRI's? HDR calculations are very processor intensive, so I very much doubt it (I do mainly high poly stuff, so I've been using HDRI for quite some time). They probably build in some support just in case.

HDR is supported by DX9 GPU's so it won't take up the amount of CPU time it would take up in a 3D app like whatever your useing.

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by A_M
Here's another really cool demo that features Real-Time High Dynamic Range Lighting (as well as other cool features such as Depth of Field and various Glare effects):
http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/

Real-time HDR is definately going to be a major step towards near-photorealistic realtime rendering.

i coulda swore i posted that on the first page of this thread.