Hinzman denied asylum.

[qckbeam]

Pesmerga, the United States is not the father of the world. That is just an incredibly arrogant thing to say. The US is a country just like every other country. Getting this idea that we're some sort of divine entity sent forth to spread peace and freedom about the world stuck in your head is just plain stupid.

 

[The Monkey]

Rise, Comrades!

 

[Absinthe]

They arnt being abused, they are being given ordders, and in the military you follow those orders. You can't jsut get up a leave. See the above quote.

So it's abuse that's legally acceptable.

The US army exists to protect our country. It is not some free-for-all camp in which you can order soldiers to do whatever the **** you wish.

 

[Nofuture]

Haha, America is Rome! And just like Rome, America will fall one way or another, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

'Let them hate us so long as they fear us.' - Caligula, Roman Emperor

Pretty similar, isn`t it?

 

[Kebean PFC]

The US army exists to protect our country. It is not some free-for-all camp in which you can order soldiers to do whatever the **** you wish.

You are really ignorant then, and i hope you never go into ANY branch of the armed services. For clarification, if you don't do "whatever the ****" the commanding officer tells you, then you won't last long. You have obviously not been close to any branch of the armed services, so i would suggest you shut up about what you don't know.

 

[Pesmerga]

'Let them hate us so long as they fear us.' - Caligula, Roman Emperor

Pretty similar, isn`t it?

That is the basic point, yes. There will always be people who don't like to be on the same level as everyone else. There will always be those who want to strive higher and become more powerful. If America were to suddenly withdraw all foreign prescence and start acting like kindergarten teachers, people will take advantage of it.

You think your concept of non-violence and avoiding ruthlessness is so cheery and perfect, you forget to add in the factor of the enemy. Granted, war is hell and there will always be collateral damage, and I'm in no way supporting targetting civilians or civilian facilities, as long as that target in no way supports the enemy. As long as there are allies, there will be enemies. And as long as there are enemies, we need fighters to uphold the country and not a massive false minded rebellion. Just imagine if the entire American military vanished from the face of the earth. So many countries would take advantage of the shift in power. While Great Britian, Canada, France, Germany, and other European and Northern America powers would hopefully find a solution to the chaos, nothing can be gaurenteed.

America needs troops to support the war. I don't think the ratio of military to civilian targets amounts up to anything worth going AWOL on the military for. I wouldn't be suprised if Hinzman was just a coward and knew of the strong anti-war presence in America and used it to his advantage as an excuse. I may be wrong, but again, I wouldn't be suprised.

 

[Absinthe]

kebean u dont have to be close to an army personnel to know what is morally right or wrong. Just b/c that's how the army is doesn't mean it shouldn't change..

Well said. Kebean, I seriously doubt you've been close to any branch of the armed services either. And if you have, then I think that makes your position even more ridiculous.

I can disobey my commanding officer if he orders me to execute an innocent civilian. Why can this not work on a larger scale? Oh wait, I forgot. You would prefer to feed the war machine instead of emphasizing any practicality.

 

[GhostFox]

Why can this not work on a larger scale?

Soldiers can ask to be moved to a non-combat squadron at any time if their personal beliefs would conflict with any action they may have to take.

This has nothing to do with the Iraq war. That is all a smokescreen. This is simply a case of a guy deciding he had enough of millitary life and would rather be at home with his wife and child. While I can sympathize with that, the fact is the man made a commitment and abandoning that is criminal, and he does belong in jail.

 

[Calanen]

The US army exists to protect our country. It is not some free-for-all camp in which you can order soldiers to do whatever the **** you wish

'free for all camp?' - it certainly would be something of a rabble if people like this guy were free to just up and leave whenever they did not like the policy of the Commander in Chief. He could have transferred into a medical unit and assisted. He was already listed as a conscientious objector. If you don't want to be in the military don't join. But once you are in, you do what you are told to.

I think its all a smoke-screen too. He got fedup with being in the military and this was an excuse to bail.

 

[Calanen]

Btw - you can shoot soldiers who don't follow orders in combat. Thats a pretty strong incentive for doing what you are told.

 

[bliink]

Btw - you can shoot soldiers who don't follow orders in combat. Thats a pretty strong incentive for doing what you are told.

Thats a pretty strong incentive to stay the hell out of the military!

 

[Bodacious]

I have done reasearch on this "following orders" issue when hinzman was brought up before, that and I was in the military and in a war so I know a little bit about what I am talking about.

First, hinzman was denied Consciencous objector(CO) status while on duty in afghanistan. Before he went to afghanistan he started attending quaker meetings. Just one day out of the blue, starts attending quaker meetings. Then he wants CO status. Naturally one of his superious called him on it and the officer who decided against giving him CO status.

This was all in agfghanistan. While there all he did was kitchen duty, nothing else. He never pulled a trigger over there. After afghanistan he came home to his family.

Then he finds out his unit is being deployed to Iraq. Instead of appealing his CO status decision or filing for a new one he deserts, or goes AWOL, whatever.

This was the wrong decision because now he is damned to a dishonorable discharge and the possiblity of life imprisonment. At a minumum he will be in a brig for a decade.

Being deployed to Iraq isn't the end of the world. It is not like on tv where you parachute out of a C130 straight into combat. Our soldiers are flown there either on commercial jets or airforce jets. When they get there they get their gear ready and do some training. I was in Kuwait for 3 months before we even went to Iraq.

Anyways it is not like he would be in combat and have to kill anyone, and have to refuse orders because of his belief. In that case you can be shot. He would be putting lives at risk and that would risk his execution.

All he had to do was refuse to go when he got there. He could have set his rifle down, took his flak vest off, looked his superior in the eyes and said, "I refuse to fight."

Most likely he would have been put on chow hall duty again and got Non judicial punishment. He could have still gotten his honorable discharge and would have most likey gotten out by now.

 

[Calanen]

I can disobey my commanding officer if he orders me to execute an innocent civilian. Why can this not work on a larger scale? Oh wait, I forgot. You would prefer to feed the war machine instead of emphasizing any practicality.

Hmm - if your commanding officer said - right men - we are going into the marketplace in Baghdad and are going to spray machine gun fire on every1 we see, because they are all terrible terrorist sympathisers, then yes you could refuse to go.

But things are never that simple. Returning fire on people that are using civilian buildings as hiding places - if you are taking sniper fire from a dude in a window, and the CO says, take him out! And you say, hang on serge, we might hit someone in the building with him! You can't do that. You have to do what you are told. The likelihood of him being shot for not doing his job in that case is probably minimal, just pull him away from the maingun and give someone else to do it, and sort him out later.

If he was the only one there, and the only one who could operate that gun which was needed to kill the sniper - then it would be fair enough to have the officer put a pistol to his head and say, fire it, now.

 

[CptStern]

I have done reasearch on this "following orders" issue when hinzman was brought up before, that and I was in the military and in a war so I know a little bit about what I am talking about.

First, hinzman was denied Consciencous objector(CO) status while on duty in afghanistan. Before he went to afghanistan he started attending quaker meetings. Just one day out of the blue, starts attending quaker meetings. Then he wants CO status. Naturally one of his superious called him on it and the officer who decided against giving him CO status.

This was all in agfghanistan. While there all he did was kitchen duty, nothing else. He never pulled a trigger over there. After afghanistan he came home to his family.

you did research? where's your sources?

you're distorting the details:

"In January of 2002, Nga and Jeremy began attending meetings of the Religious Society of Friends, better known as the Quakers. As a result of this, they became acquainted with the Quaker Peace Testimony, which intensified their questioning of the meaning of military life.

This questioning culminated in Jeremy submitting an application to the Army requesting conscientious objector status in August of 2002. Apparently, the Army never received the application, so he resubmitted it on Halloween of 2002. Just over a month later[November] his unit was deployed to Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.


source = from the horses mouth

Then he finds out his unit is being deployed to Iraq. Instead of appealing his CO status decision or filing for a new one he deserts, or goes AWOL, whatever.

This was the wrong decision because now he is damned to a dishonorable discharge and the possiblity of life imprisonment. At a minumum he will be in a brig for a decade.

Being deployed to Iraq isn't the end of the world. It is not like on tv where you parachute out of a C130 straight into combat. Our soldiers are flown there either on commercial jets or airforce jets. When they get there they get their gear ready and do some training. I was in Kuwait for 3 months before we even went to Iraq.

Anyways it is not like he would be in combat and have to kill anyone, and have to refuse orders because of his belief. In that case you can be shot. He would be putting lives at risk and that would risk his execution.

All he had to do was refuse to go when he got there. He could have set his rifle down, took his flak vest off, looked his superior in the eyes and said, "I refuse to fight."

Most likely he would have been put on chow hall duty again and got Non judicial punishment. He could have still gotten his honorable discharge and would have most likey gotten out by now.

they never gave him the opportunity ..they denied him his CO request while in afghanistan ..he had no other means of leaving the military.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Hmm - if your commanding officer said - right men - we are going into the marketplace in Baghdad and are going to spray machine gun fire on every1 we see, because they are all terrible terrorist sympathisers, then yes you could refuse to go.

But things are never that simple. Returning fire on people that are using civilian buildings as hiding places - if you are taking sniper fire from a dude in a window, and the CO says, take him out! And you say, hang on serge, we might hit someone in the building with him! You can't do that. You have to do what you are told. The likelihood of him being shot for not doing his job in that case is probably minimal, just pull him away from the maingun and give someone else to do it, and sort him out later.

If he was the only one there, and the only one who could operate that gun which was needed to kill the sniper - then it would be fair enough to have the officer put a pistol to his head and say, fire it, now.

I agree..

His main objective is too kill the terrorist. if he doesnt, this terrorist could go on to kill loads more innocent people, EVEN children and women

 

[Bodacious]

OF **** STERN I MISSED ONE MINOR DETAIL, I GUESS I HAVE TO BE CRUCIFIED NOW, OMFG!!!1

Yah, I made that mistake on purpose to make everyone think Hinzman was evil. I have this huge agenda, stern, you don't even know.

I made a mistake on the date, BFD!

they never gave him the opportunity ..they denied him his CO request while in afghanistan ..he had no other means of leaving the military.

CO status does not mean you get out of the military. He would have been assigned to duty as a cook.

Hey, if you think what he did was ok, fine. But I would rather have gotten out of the military honorably and then protested then to have damned myself to jail for at least a decade and damned my family to be fatherless.

 

[CptStern]

OF **** STERN I MISSED ONE MINOR DETAIL, I GUESS I HAVE TO BE CRUCIFIED NOW, OMFG!!!1

one mistake? you made it look like he purposefully became religious so that he could get out of the military. Which isnt remotely true ..there was several months beween coverting to a quaker and being sent to afghanistan

Yah, I made that mistake on purpose to make everyone think Hinzman was evil. I have this huge agenda, stern, you don't even know.

I dont know why you omitted that information but you did it again in this very post:

"CO status does not mean you get out of the military. He would have been assigned to duty as a cook."


he was already assigned to be a cook while in afghanistan ..but after his request was denied he was assigned to an armorer unit before being deployed to iraq ..he saw no other way out

Hey, if you think what he did was ok, fine. But I would rather have gotten out of the military honorably and then protested then to have damned myself to jail for at least a decade and damned my family to be fatherless.

what I think is immaterial ..he obviously felt strongly about his convictions. Oh and the likelihood that he'll be sent back to the US is pretty slim ...his appeal process isnt over

 

[Bodacious]

one mistake? you made it look like he purposefully became religious so that he could get out of the military. Which isnt remotely true ..there was several months beween coverting to a quaker and being sent to afghanistan

I am not the only one who believes this. I think it is true. He was using a religious cop out to get out of a war he didn't believe.

I dont know why you omitted that information but you did it again in this very post:

"CO status does not mean you get out of the military. He would have been assigned to duty as a cook."

I keep forgetting that when I argue with someone with a left of center viewpoint I have to break everything down by the numbers and clarify what I meant, otherwise they don't get it.

What I meant was that if he had been deployed to Iraq and refused to fight he would have been reassigned to a different job.

he was already assigned to be a cook while in afghanistan ..but after his request was denied he was assigned to an armorer unit before being deployed to iraq ..he saw no other way out

If he saw no other way out then that proves he is an idiot. He should have gone to legal aid and they could have helped him.

He damned himself to imprisonment and his family to be bastardized. All of this when he could have refused and been fined a few hundred dollars.

what I think is immaterial ..he obviously felt strongly about his convictions. Oh and the likelihood that he'll be sent back to the US is pretty slim ...his appeal process isnt over

We will have to wait and see. He will pay his debt to society one way or the other.

 

[CptStern]

I am not the only one who believes this. I think it is true. He was using a religious cop out to get out of a war he didn't believe.

source? gut feeling or informed opinion? ...methinks the former. I'll take HIS word for it over yours ..there was almost 11 months between becoming a quaker and being deployed to Iraq

I keep forgetting that when I argue with someone with a left of center viewpoint I have to break everything down by the numbers and clarify what I meant, otherwise they don't get it.

spare me your condescending attempt at rediculing me.

What I meant was that if he had been deployed to Iraq and refused to fight he would have been reassigned to a different job.

you dont seem to read my replies ...I stated that he was refused CO status and reassigned to a different unit ...one that was going to be deployed to iraq

If he saw no other way out then that proves he is an idiot. He should have gone to legal aid and they could have helped him.

just like they did in afghanistan? was he supposed to take the chance that they might ship him home after being deployed to iraq? he could have been reassigned to "official bomb defuser" for all you know

He damned himself to imprisonment and his family to be bastardized. All of this when he could have refused and been fined a few hundred dollars.

bastardised? his children were born in wedlock. Sorry but if I was his position (which would be impossible because there's no way I'd ever enlist to fight in a bogus war dreamed up by fatcats and neo-conservatives) I'd take the risk of imprisonment if that meant being able to stay with my family ...he did the right thing by coming to canada (although wrong chain of events). Your family is more important than bush, a bit of cloth with stars and stripes, even your own life ...no justification is worth the risk of your kids growing up fatherless

We will have to wait and see. He will pay his debt to society one way or the other.

ya so when will the merchants of death (axis of evil: bush, rumsfeld, cheney) pay their debt to society? or will the civilians of america pay it back for them?

 

[Calanen]

Your family is more important than bush, a bit of cloth with stars and stripes, even your own life ...no justification is worth the risk of your kids growing up fatherless

Then don't join the army. Have a nice civilian job and be safe. But if you commit to a military position, then you honour your committment. The tour is only 4 years. And he could have done chow duty or worked as a military orderly. But he just ran like a coward, broke his word to his country like a liar, and tried to wrap himself in the anti-war cause to cover up his cowardice.

The military cannot work if everyone says, meh don't like this I'm heading out - or, as Cartman would say, 'Screw you guys, I'm going home.'

 

[Calanen]

bastardised? his children were born in wedlock.

You know what he meant - but perhaps demonized would be a better description. That is, if he moved into somewhere probably anywhere other than San Francisco, or NY city, they might get a negative reaction in the neighbourhood. And yes, I realise that his family will not actually turn into demons.............

 

[Pesmerga]

^^ Hehe.

If 500 other soldiers decide to give up and leave because they think the war is "evil", it'll give ketchup man (Hinzman, ho ho, I'm such a funny guy) some credit. But he's still either the biggest idiot or biggest coward because of his actions he took to get out of the military. There are plenty of ways out if you're willing to put enough effort into it.

I won't believe for a second that commanders want soldiers who sign up as CO fighting on their battlefield; 1 guy who isn't willing to fire a weapon should be willing to do arduous tasks back in support.

 

[Kebean PFC]

Well said. Kebean, I seriously doubt you've been close to any branch of the armed services either. And if you have, then I think that makes your position even more ridiculous.

Actually i am a Cadet Sergeant. I know that sounds stupid and "Oh no3s, joo a1nt 1/\/ t3h militar e y3t!!111" but i wm closer than some of you who post in the dark. Look folks, when you sign that paper, you say (legally) I will fight for my country no matter where we choose to fight. I know this is a four year commitment, and i am prepared to take it.

If he asked again to be sent to the stockade, he would have been. There are many places you can go (Though not home) where you can be relitivly safe and not have to shoot [SARCASM]innocent terrorists. [/SARCASM]

 

[dys4iK]

There were people during WWII that though it was wrong to fight Hitler (until they saw what he was doing to the Jews). Yet they still put thier lives on the line.

This is a horrible argument.

What about all the germans who saw what the SS was doing to the Jews? Shouldn't they have done something? Refused to participate, maybe?

 

[Kebean PFC]

What about all the germans who saw what the SS was doing to the Jews?

First off, only the SS knew (mostly, there were small leaks. And second there are records of German soldiers being executed for abandoning thier units.

Your argument is equally as horrible, i fail to see the point

 

[Calanen]

both my grandparents on both sides of my family were in world war 2. i know some stuff, and on one hand i understand. But i feel if he genuinly believed in not fighting he shoulda be let off. That's me, o well we're all entitled t our opinion. I mean if the dude cant fight why would u want him in the military anyways?

If you say I truly cannot fight - thats fine. You will do your tour and be honorably discharged. But saying I can't fight does not mean you get to run away from your unit to Canada.

 

[Bodacious]

source? gut feeling or informed opinion? ...methinks the former. I'll take HIS word for it over yours ..there was almost 11 months between becoming a quaker and being deployed to Iraq

And I will take the Sgt's word, the one that called him out on it, over his.

spare me your condescending attempt at rediculing me.

Or what? I'll stop speaking the truth when you stop giving me the reasons to.

you dont seem to read my replies ...I stated that he was refused CO status and reassigned to a different unit ...one that was going to be deployed to iraq

And you don't seem to understand or comprehend what I said. I stated that even though he was refused CO status and reassigned to a differnt unit that was going to Iraq, he could have refused to fight and wouldn't be in this situation now. He would have served his chow hall duty and been out of the military.

just like they did in afghanistan? was he supposed to take the chance that they might ship him home after being deployed to iraq? he could have been reassigned to "official bomb defuser" for all you know

Sorry, I do know. The military people won't put someone in a postion where other's lives are put at risk if they have shown that they are insuboridante or refuse to handle stress under pressure.

bastardised? his children were born in wedlock. Sorry but if I was his position (which would be impossible because there's no way I'd ever enlist to fight in a bogus war dreamed up by fatcats and neo-conservatives) I'd take the risk of imprisonment if that meant being able to stay with my family ...he did the right thing by coming to canada (although wrong chain of events). Your family is more important than bush, a bit of cloth with stars and stripes, even your own life ...no justification is worth the risk of your kids growing up fatherless

Ok, but I am going to call you an idiot for that. He could have gotten out of the military without imprisonment. He has damned his family to be fatherless for a number of years. I agree with you, family is important. But he kicked his family in the balls by deserting. He needs to swallow his pride.

 

[CptStern]

And I will take the Sgt's word, the one that called him out on it, over his.

you want to post a source? who are we talking about? Sgt Shellback? sorry but unless he was in jeremy's mind he cant possibly know his true motivations

Or what? I'll stop speaking the truth when you stop giving me the reasons to.

please I'll out-debate you any day, not cuz I'm more intelligent but because the evidence is almost always stacked against you

And you don't seem to understand or comprehend what I said. I stated that even though he was refused CO status and reassigned to a differnt unit that was going to Iraq, he could have refused to fight and wouldn't be in this situation now. He would have served his chow hall duty and been out of the military.

you dont know that for a fact ..he asked for CO status before going to afghanistan ..it obviously didnt make a lick of a difference so I'm sure he thought the same would happen in iraq. Again, it wouldnt have been my choice but I wouldnt have been there in the first place

Sorry, I do know. The military people won't put someone in a postion where other's lives are put at risk if they have shown that they are insuboridante or refuse to handle stress under pressure.

you'd think the military would want to shut him up ...what better way then send him overseas were he's at the whim of the military ..back home he could potentially become a cancer to the morale of the soldiers in his unit

Ok, but I am going to call you an idiot for that.

thanks for stooping to the lowest common denominator ...reported

He could have gotten out of the military without imprisonment.

you dont know that for a fact ..all attempts failed ..he probably felt he had no choice

He has damned his family to be fatherless for a number of years. I agree with you, family is important. But he kicked his family in the balls by deserting. He needs to swallow his pride.

bullshit, bodacious you absolutely never read the finer details ..he clearly states on his website that he made the decision with his wife ..and no you dont know how important family is ..have a child, then we'll talk ..I'd kill you and everyone here including myself to save his life ...once you have children NOTHING is more important. And he'll probably remain in canada unless the US asks for extradition.

 

[Bodacious]

you want to post a source? who are we talking about? Sgt Shellback? sorry but unless he was in jeremy's mind he cant possibly know his true motivations

I am sure it is on his website somewhere. At his CO status hearing in afghanistan a sgt siad his quaker meeting were suspect and because of that the officer presiding over the hearing denied his CO status.

please I'll out-debate you any day, not cuz I'm more intelligent but because the evidence is almost always stacked against you

Oh noes! Like I care

you dont know that for a fact ..he asked for CO status before going to afghanistan ..it obviously didnt make a lick of a difference so I'm sure he thought the same would happen in iraq. Again, it wouldnt have been my choice but I wouldnt have been there in the first place

I do know for a fact. I was in the military. I do know what the concequence for refusing are, I have watched it happen. Better on chow hall duty in Iraq than be a deserter and damning your family to being fatherless for at least a decade.

you'd think the military would want to shut him up ...what better way then send him overseas were he's at the whim of the military ..back home he could potentially become a cancer to the morale of the soldiers in his unit

You know nothing of the military. He would not become a cancer to the morale of the troops, he would be looked upon in disdain for being a coward.

thanks for stooping to the lowest common denominator ...reported

Oh noes! Good quote out of context and yay for you for taking things to literally.

You don't think it is idiotic what he did? He had the choice of enduring some discomfort and getting out of the military or throwing his and his family's life away. He chose to throw his life away. How is that not idiotic? To say you would follow his footsteps if given the same choices is idiotic.

you dont know that for a fact ..all attempts failed ..he probably felt he had no choice

Do know for a fact. He would be charged under article 92 of the UCMJ. Maximum punishment is Dishonorable discharge and 2 years imprisonment. And he could be charged with willful dereliciton, maximum punishmend is Bad conduct discharge with 6 months imprisonment.

Being charged for Desertion under article 85 is "death or other punishment directed by a court matial" because this is a time of war. If it wasn't a time of war he would get dishonorable discharge with 5 years imprisonment.

What would you choose? 2 years in jail or the possibility of death? It tooke me 5 minutes to look up the article of the UCMJ.

bullshit, bodacious you absolutely never read the finer details ..he clearly states on his website that he made the decision with his wife ..and no you dont know how important family is ..have a child, then we'll talk ..I'd kill you and everyone here including myself to save his life ...once you have children NOTHING is more important. And he'll probably remain in canada unless the US asks for extradition.

Bullshit? I have a child, she is 5. Making assumptions is bullshit.

Look, go read the articles of the UCMJ I posted about above. He could have spent at max 2 years in jail. Instead he risked his life.

How is that better for his family?

 

[CptStern]

I am sure it is on his website somewhere. At his CO status hearing in afghanistan a sgt siad his quaker meeting were suspect and because of that the officer presiding over the hearing denied his CO status.

horse-manure ...he was denied CO status on the grounds that he isnt a true pacifist ..he said he would still defend his life if threatened ..that was good enough for the military to denie his request

I do know for a fact. I was in the military. I do know what the concequence for refusing are, I have watched it happen. Better on chow hall duty in Iraq than be a deserter and damning your family to being fatherless for at least a decade.

if he ever returns to the US which I think is doubtful.

You know nothing of the military. He would not become a cancer to the morale of the troops, he would be looked upon in disdain for being a coward.

that's even worse IMHO. Just because the majority of you are willing to throw away your lives for an illegal and bogus war doesnt mean that someone who actually sees the truth for what it is, is a coward. It's not cowardly to stand up for what you believe ..it IS cowardly to sit back and say nothing when you better ...how the US army hasnt mass-defected is beyond me ..it speaks of 2 things either they truely believe they're there for "freedom" (which is sad) or they're just there because their country tells them to be there (which is equally sad)

You don't think it is idiotic what he did? He had the choice of enduring some discomfort and getting out of the military or throwing his and his family's life away. He chose to throw his life away. How is that not idiotic?

so are all the CO's from Vietnam idiots? are the other 6 US soldiers in canada idiots? is everyone who's ever had an opinion an idiot? according to you they are. He made his choice he must live with it ...he should havehad some foresight and not joined to begin with

To say you would follow his footsteps if given the same choices is idiotic.

:upstare: you're putting words in my mouth again ...I would never be in his situation because I'm not a pawn to the military-industrial complex, nor would I ever be ...so your point is meaningless

Do know for a fact. He would be charged under article 92 of the UCMJ. Maximum punishment is Dishonorable discharge and 2 years imprisonment. And he could be charged with willful dereliciton, maximum punishmend is Bad conduct discharge with 6 months imprisonment.

or get nothing by moving to canada ...oh and I'm sure he galvanised others who have the same concerns he did ...6 more came to canada shortly after Jeremy's story broke

Being charged for Desertion under article 85 is "death or other punishment directed by a court matial" because this is a time of war. If it wasn't a time of war he would get dishonorable discharge with 5 years imprisonment.

not to mention the respect of his fellow americans :upstare: he did what he did because of his convictions

What would you choose? 2 years in jail or the possibility of death? It tooke me 5 minutes to look up the article of the UCMJ.





Bullshit? I have a child, she is 5. Making assumptions is bullshit.

Look, go read the articles of the UCMJ I posted about above. He could have spent at max 2 years in jail. Instead he risked his life.

How is that better for his family?

neither ...I wouldnt have been there in the first place ..I wouldnt throw my life away for the gain of another

 

[Bodacious]

horse-manure ...he was denied CO status on the grounds that he isnt a true pacifist ..he said he would still defend his life if threatened ..that was good enough for the military to denie his request

http://www.notinourname.net/troops/canada-refuge-7feb04.htm

Three of his sergeants testified that he was a good soldier who "embodied Army Values." But one of them, First Sgt. James Carabello, said he couldn't understand how Mr. Hinzman, with all his training, could suddenly decide he was a conscientious objector.

"He fully knew what our mission is, and that is to do an Airborne Assault onto an objective and destroy the enemy. This did not become an issue until it was apparent we were going to deploy to Afghanistan."

Like I said, I will take a first sgt (e-6)'s word over a private (e-1)'s word anyday.

that's even worse IMHO. Just because the majority of you are willing to throw away your lives for an illegal and bogus war doesnt mean that someone who actually sees the truth for what it is, is a coward. It's not cowardly to stand up for what you believe ..it IS cowardly to sit back and say nothing when you better ...how the US army hasnt mass-defected is beyond me ..it speaks of 2 things either they truely believe they're there for "freedom" (which is sad) or they're just there because their country tells them to be there (which is equally sad)

1. He is cowardly because he refuses to fulfill his contractual obligation. He siad he would do something and then turned around and refused. Not only that but he ran away from the concequences.

2. The army hasn't mass defected not because of the reasons you listed but because they are smarter than that. I give our fighting forces more credit than that.

3. I find it laughable that you would call me out on some supposd insult of you and then you turn right around and insult america's armed forces.

so are all the CO's from Vietnam idiots? are the other 6 US soldiers in canada idiots? is everyone who's ever had an opinion an idiot? according to you they are. He made his choice he must live with it ...he should havehad some foresight and not joined to begin with

I don't know about the CO's from vietnam. The other 6? Are they deserters? Do they have families like hinzman? Anyone who has ever had an opinoin? No, fo course not, I didn't say that and I don't know how you gathered that from what I said. Eveyone who has ever had an opinion isn't someone who has deserted their unit. I am calling Hinzman's actions idiotic.

:upstare: you're putting words in my mouth again ...I would never be in his situation because I'm not a pawn to the military-industrial complex, nor would I ever be ...so your point is meaningless

You said, "if I was his positon..."

Sorry but if I was his position... I'd take the risk of imprisonment if that meant being able to stay with my family ...he did the right thing by coming to canada.

I ask again, 2 years in jail or risk the death penalty?

or get nothing by moving to canada ...oh and I'm sure he galvanised others who have the same concerns he did ...6 more came to canada shortly after Jeremy's story broke

Except he can't just pick up and move to canada. He has to request asylum, refugee status, whatever, and so far he has lost. I believe he will be extidited to America to pay for his crimes someday.

neither ...I wouldnt have been there in the first place ..I wouldnt throw my life away for the gain of another

See above.

 

[bliink]

so i have a big question kinda bout this. If their was a draft and we left would we be jailed? i mean we were forcefully taken in not volunties. What is the rule on this and how would you people that feel hinzman should be jailed feel about this. I mean if u draft people obviously their will be some that just cannot cope and fight period.

You can get out of the army in many ways:

Entry Level Performance and Conduct

Conscientious Objection

Homosexual Conduct (not a good choice IMO )

Hardship or Dependency

Disability

Other Designated Physical and Mental Conditions (Section 8 woo! just wear a dress like Klinger in mash )

EDIT:
Also, theres Misconduct and Discharge In Lieu of Court-Martial
(just leave a bayonet in an officer's bed)

 

[Kebean PFC]

The rules are the same if you are drafted, i think.

 

[Pesmerga]

Oh, so sticking up for what's "right" wasn't good enough for him to break his own leg?

 

[jimbo118]

Oh, so sticking up for what's "right" wasn't good enough for him to break his own leg?

which is?

 

[Calanen]

You can get out of the army in many ways:

Entry Level Performance and Conduct

Does this mean - fubar something and get discharged? Bad choice.

Conscientious Objection

Normally means you stay your tour but just do things that are not as military, like KP duty.

Homosexual Conduct (not a good choice IMO )

Hardship or Dependency

Disability

Other Designated Physical and Mental Conditions (Section 8 woo! just wear a dress like Klinger in mash

Interestingly, to me at least - the only time the 'Im a homosexual' excuse did not work - was during the draft in Vietnam. They were onto that as a pretty good way to dodge the draft.

Best choice for him would have been to work as an orderly in a hospital outfit. Then he can help people still, doesn't have to carry a weapon, and still does his tour with full benefits. But running away is no man's way to handle problems.

 

[Calanen]

so i have a big question kinda bout this. If their was a draft and we left would we be jailed? i mean we were forcefully taken in not volunties. What is the rule on this and how would you people that feel hinzman should be jailed feel about this. I mean if u draft people obviously their will be some that just cannot cope and fight period.

There is no draft in the USA. Nor Australia anymore. In the US you would do 2 years if you were drafted. You could be a conscientious objector, but this more just meant you would be in the background rather than you got to go home. Although Mohammed Ali got the right to not go at all on religious grounds, after about 5 years of litigation.

As for people who can't fight - if you fall apart from stress or battle fatigue or whatever, you get psychiatric help from the military and if you can be healed than you go back to work. If not you get discharged. But you don't get to decide I can't be in the military at all I am deserting if you are drafted.

I think perhaps that there will not be a draft in the US military for a very long time. Why? Because it takes so long to train good troops, and by the time you have them trained well enough they are being discharged after 2 years. Where the military may start drafting people again is for medical related fields, especially if they have a large war of some kind. THen they will need a lot more specialist surgeons and nursing staff - many of whom would not ordinarily be likely to serve in the military. Specialist surgeons in the USA, while some may be in the part-time army and national guard, Im thinking that a lot less than the US military would like. So if the need ever became dire, that is whom they would draft first.

If the US military gets to the stage of drafting everyone again, it means that it will be one huge war.

 

[bliink]

Entry Level Performance and Conduct

Does this mean - fubar something and get discharged? Bad choice.

Its anyone who doesnt "adapt" to army life well.
Basically, think bill murray in Stripes

 

[Calanen]

wasn't so much asking about the punishment as i was asking about how you felt if the army forcefully makes someone join, then that person cannot fight, due to whatever reason, and the army still forces them. How do you feel about that...? i

Doesn't happen. As about 5 people explained why above. The only instance I could see it happening is if someone in the middle of a firefight decided they did not want to fight and fell apart. Then you'd just get them out of the way if they were useless and deal with them after the battle. If you tell the army, im crap, cant fight don't want to use a gun, im a big hippy - they will move you behind the lines. No1 wants someone useless in their front line.

 

[firemachine69]

I think it is the maximum sentence, but doubt he would receive it.

Probably a year of jail. At best. Unfortunately.

I can't see why he couldn't just face up, and deal with the fine print he signed to. Christ. If he wins in appeal, I'm gonna go show it to my cell company and tell them "well I don' like your deal anymore since you *insert BS reason here*, deals off".

Yeah, I'm sure my cell provider will be thrilled.



Come on, they've been attacking hardened structures in Iraq since the Senior Bush days, he was an idiot to think there wasn't a chance of being sent out.

Stupidity has a price. And unfortunately the moron isn't willing to be proud and pay for it. Another coward. Yay for humanity.