History of Sin

[Neutrino]

God didn't mess up. People did. He gave people free will to do what they want. They chose to live the wrong way and they were punished for it.

Here ya go, have a fallible mind, free will, and a vague set of rules that you must intrepret correctly and accept on faith alone using the imperfect tools given you. Go play nice now. Oh almost forgot, don't mess up or I'll kill you and damn you to hell. Have fun!

(Don't take me too seriously. Don't mean to offend. Just accept that I'm a lost cause, and probably damned to hell.)

 

[Neutrino]

Well we could go back and forth all day about Gods intensions or what his plans are but the point of what I was getting at is that we can not logically stand on the word impossible, unless we know all that is possible.

Alright, that's fine.

But while we're on the subject of logic I have a question.

As a christian don't you believe that God exists and that there is no other possible alternative to reality? If so how do you justify that logically? I'm assuming you accept logic as a valid tool since you are using it now to make an argument. So by your own statement that one cannot claim something is impossible, then it follows that you cannot claim that it is impossible that God does not exist. I'm just curious what your outlook is on this.

 

[CptStern]

holy hossannah what have i started?

k I'll be back after I put my kid to bed to chip in my 2 cents

moz4rt: saddam never claimed to be the liberator

 

[moz4rt]

Here ya go, have a fallible mind, free will, and a vague set of rules that you must intrepret correctly and accept on faith alone using the imperfect tools given you. Go play nice now. Oh almost forgot, don't mess up or I'll kill you and damn you to hell. Have fun!

(Don't take too much offense. Just accept that I'm a lost cause, and damned to hell.)

You're missing it man. I've explained this soooo many times it's getting disgusting. So here we go (cut-and-past time)...

God created man and gave him the free will to do whatever he wants. God made a set of guidelines for us to live by if we want to. If we live by the guidelines (10 commandments perhaps?) God will be pleased and good things will happen to us, but we won't necessarily go to heaven. If we don't live by the guidelines bad things will happen to us, but we won't necessarily go to hell.

When God gave us free will, he gave us the choice to do whatever we want. This explains why some bad things (like war) happen. It is man who makes the decision to go to war. God hates war, but it is necessary because of man's free will. The statement, "if God were real how could he let these things happen?", and the like hold no water IMO. If God were to intervene and stop things like war, he would be imposing on our free will.

To get to heaven, the Bible says that you must accept Jesus as Lord, believe that God raised Him from the dead. That's it. You don't need to go to church or give to a charity or anything. If you do these things though, God will bless you with a happy life. A murderer or a serial rapist could go to heaven if they believed. But they would still have to pay the consequences for what they'd done by being punished with a bad life. You only need to believe.

Disclaimer-
This is the way I think it is. I don't believe in the whole fire and brimstone thing. I may not have worded this correctly and I don't mean to offend anyone.



stern: oh i guess it's ok then

 

[Neutrino]

You're missing it man. I've explained this soooo many times it's getting disgusting. So here we go (cut-and-past time)...

God created man and gave him the free will to do whatever he wants. God made a set of guidelines for us to live by if we want to. If we live by the guidelines (10 commandments perhaps?) God will be pleased and good things will happen to us, but we won't necessarily go to heaven. If we don't live by the guidelines bad things will happen to us, but we won't necessarily go to hell.

When God gave us free will, he gave us the choice to do whatever we want. This explains why some bad things (like war) happen. It is man who makes the decision to go to war. God hates war, but it is necessary because of man's free will. The statement, "if God were real how could he let these things happen?", and the like hold no water IMO. If God were to intervene and stop things like war, he would be imposing on our free will.

To get to heaven, the Bible says that you must accept Jesus as Lord, believe that God raised Him from the dead. That's it. You don't need to go to church or give to a charity or anything. If you do these things though, God will bless you with a happy life. A murderer or a serial rapist could go to heaven if they believed. But they would still have to pay the consequences for what they'd done by being punished with a bad life. You only need to believe.

Disclaimer-
This is the way I think it is. I don't believe in the whole fire and brimstone thing. I may not have worded this correctly and I don't mean to offend anyone.



stern: oh i guess it's ok then

Heh, I don't know why I let myself be drawn into these things. Oh well. Well, about the post you quoted, I was just responding to your statement that if people live the wrong way God must punish them.

As for the bit about getting into heaven based on your acceptance of Jesus Christ as the lord and saviour, I'm aware of that. Though I would sincerely hope that God would not set it up that way if he exists. But I won't get into it at the moment as I gotta get to some other things.

holy hossannah what have i started? r

Just some thoughtful discussion on a subject that is impossible for anyone to agree on. In other words, you've let the beast out of its cage.

 

[Jackal hit]

And yet you dont have any problems with a man named Jesus Christ who not only was resurrected but made the blind see, heal uncurable diseases, WALKED on water, Calmed a storm with a simple command......??

there should be no problems with these "miracles." even the pope did some miraculous things, no less interesting than jesus:
1 He made a lame man blind.
2 He walked under water.
3 He cured a ham.

 

[CrazyHarij]

The main reasons why I left christianity:

I find no reason to believe all good that happens to us is coming only from the protestantic christian God.

The main argument why god didn't create us to automatically believe in him was so we wouldn't be robots, we'd have a free will.
Then again, do we really have a choice if we go to hell if we do anything but go 30 degrees to the northwest(i.e follow the christian god down to the letter)?

Why are all other religions so bad and demonic when there's only tiny differences between them and christianity?

I'm still studying most religions and working myself towards something that'd fit me right now as the person I am. I am searching.

Also, you may thank my hardcore narrowminded christian mother for my choice of leaving christianity.

As one person said, the kids of a religious fanatic will either leave (the) religion head over heels or become religious fanatics themselves.

 

[Neutrino]

I'm still studying most religions and working myself towards something that'd fit me right now as the person I am. I am searching.

Just curious, why do you want to find a specific religion to fit you? It just seems that many people I run into feel the need to believe in something and like to belong to one religion or another. I just never felt the need for organized religion in any form, so I don't quite understand why people need something beyond their own thoughts when it comes to philisophical beliefs? Or perhaps I misunderstood what you meant.

 

[moz4rt]

Then again, do we really have a choice if we go to hell if we do anything but go 30 degrees to the northwest(i.e follow the christian god down to the letter)?

Yes we do. I explained that in my previous post. Even murderers can go to heaven if they believe, but they'll still have to pay the consequences. It's not hard to understand at all. (this is all according to the Bible)

Why are all other religions so bad and demonic when there's only tiny differences between them and christianity?

You forgot the biggest difference between Christianity and other religions- Jesus Christ is alive (according to Christians). Mohammed, Budda, etc. are all dead (according to their respective religions). Christianity worships a living Christ. Others worship dead guys (along with a god of course). That is not a tiny difference.

 

[CptStern]

Also something interesting to read.


http://www.carm.org/questions/noahsark.htm

Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is "Yes." But let's look at the last question in more detail. The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.

480 years old? the average life span in ancient eygpt (census started about 33 AD) was 30 years so it stands to reason that in noah's time (aprox 2500 years before christ) the average lifespen would be considerably lower. I need some sort of hard evidence supporting someone living to the age of 480 when all evidence points to the contrary. Divine intervention is not evidence

Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to
Gen. 7:3)
Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700

there are between 30 and 50 million species of insects and another 5-10 million species of animals

"Currently, scientists have named and successfully classified over 1.5 million species. It is estimated that there are as little as 2 million to as many as 50 million more species that have not yet been found and/or have been incorrectly classified."

 

[mchammer75040]

The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high

First off wood is not the best material for shipbuilding. It is not enough that a ship be built to hold together; it must also be sturdy enough that the changing stresses don't open gaps in its hull. Wood is simply not strong enough to prevent separation between the joints, especially in the heavy seas that the Ark would have encountered. The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped.

Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to
Gen. 7:3)
Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700
The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 ÷ 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.

(this applies to everything you said, I just quoted the above to shorten alittle)
It is important to take the size of animals into account when considering how much space they would occupy because the greatest number of species occurs in the smallest animals. Woodmorappe performed such an analysis and came to the conclusion that the animals would take up 47% of the ark. In addition, he determines that about 10% of the ark was needed for food (compacted to take as little space as possible) and 9.4% for water (assuming no evaporation or wastage). At least 25% of the space would have been needed for corridors and bracing. Thus, increasing the quantity of animals by more than about 5% would overload the ark.

However, Woodmorappe makes several questionable and invalid assumptions. Here's how the points discussed above affect his analysis. Table 1 shows Woodmorappe's analysis and some additional calculations.

Table 1: Size analysis of animals aboard the Ark. Page numbers refer to Woodmorappe, 1996, from which the figures in the row are taken. (Minor arithmetic errors in totals are corrected.) Woodmorappe treats many animals as juveniles; "yearling" masses are masses of those animals after one year of growth. "Total mass after one year" is the maximum load which Woodmorappe allows for. Additional clean animal figures assume they are taken aboard by sevens, not seven pairs, and also assume juvenile animals. Log mass range (g) 0-1 1-2 2-3 3-4 4-5 5-6 6-7 7-8
Ave. mass (kg) (p. 13) .005 .05 .5 5 50 316 3160 31600
# of mammals (p. 10) 466 1570 1378 1410 1462 892 246 7424
# of birds (p. 10) 630 2272 1172 450 70 4 4598
# of reptiles (p. 10) 642 844 688 492 396 286 270 106 3724
total # of animals 1738 4686 3238 2352 1928 1182 516 106 15746
Ave. yearling mass (kg) (p. 66) .005 .05 .5 5 10 100 300 1000
Total mass after one year 8.7 234.3 1619 11760 19280 118200 154800 106000 411902
Total mass assuming adults 8.7 234.3 1619 11760 96400 373512 1630560 3349600 5463694
Additional clean birds 1575 5680 2930 1125 175 10 11495
Additional ruminants (138 genera) 260 420 10 690
Additional clean animal mass (yearling weight, kg) 8 284 1465 5625 4350 43000 3000 47600

Collecting each species instead of each genus would increase the number of individuals three- to fourfold. The most speciose groups tend to be the smaller animals, though, so the total mass would be approximately doubled or tripled.
Collecting all land animals instead of just mammals, birds, and reptiles would have insignificant impact on the space required, since those animals, though plentiful, are so small. (The problems come when you try to care for them all.)
Leaving off the long-extinct animals would free considerable space. Woodmorappe doesn't say how many of the animals in his calculations are known only from fossils, but it is apparently 50-70% of them, including most of the large ones. However, since he took only juveniles of the large animals, leaving off all the dinosaurs etc. would probably not free more than 80% of the space. On the other hand, collecting all extinct animals in addition to just the known ones would increase the load by an unknown but probably substantial amount.
Loading adults instead of juveniles as small as Woodmorappe uses would increase the load 13- to 50-fold.
Including extra clean animals would increase the load by 1.5-3% if only the 13 traditional domestic ruminants are considered, but by 14-28% if all ruminants are considered clean.
In conclusion, an ark of the size specified in the Bible would not be large enough to carry a cargo of animals and food sufficient to repopulate the earth, especially if animals that are now extinct were required to be aboard.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

 

[Tr0n]

You guys know this debate is never gonna end...right?

 

[mchammer75040]

You guys know this debate is never gonna end...right?

Noone cares tron

 

[lePobz]

I just think it's funny you religious folk give your Gods genders... yeah, like they have a use for a gender.

 

[BBMcGinty]

I just think it's funny you religious folk give your Gods genders... yeah, like they have a use for a gender

Aye, but God made man in his own image, or so the bible says anyway. That's why God's a dude.

 

[lePobz]

Right, and he made woman from whos image? And why did gods 'image' be a bloke (with the male reproductive organs too)?

Is there a Mrs God somewhere too? If not, what real use would God have for such organs. I'm sorry, but this is just stupid.

Humans are no longer simpleton ye olde village folk that work the land and have nothing to fear apart from witches and the wrath from the heavens. Stop believing the stories written by such folk.

I believe in God myself, I'm not an idiot atheist that thinks he/she knows better than anyone with a religion. I'm a realist and know there's a greater power in this universe than what we can see. It doesn't mean my God looks like an old man with a white beard, or speaks English. It doesn't mean I believe every story in the bible at face value. I think the Bible is a good book full of stories that teach morals and how to behave. As is the Qu r'an, and most other holy books.

I don't have a religion as such but as I say, I believe in God. And I think the world would be better off if people learned the morals taught to us by holy books.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Now, wouldn't the world be better off if that were followed by the population.

 

[BBMcGinty]

I almost forgot, he's white too!

 

[poseyjmac]

What? That's complete nonsense. It's no more illogical than religion. In fact it's a far more logical way of thinking in my opinion. Though I do concede that claiming to know anything for a fact that is unprovable is illogical, though one can use common sense in certain circumstances. If you have a reason though, please explain why you think atheism is any more illogical than anything else.

drop the crack pipe, guy, i didn't say atheism was MORE illogical than anything. i said that guys post reminded me of how illogical atheism is.

...and then in that same post you agreed with me. :rolling:

 

[Neutrino]

drop the crack pipe, guy, i didn't say atheism was MORE illogical than anything. i said that guys post reminded me of how illogical atheism is.

...and then in that same post you agreed with me. :rolling:

As you can see I thought you were saying pure atheism was more illogical than religion. Sorry for misunderstanding.

But, even though I do agree with you in basic principle, it's actually a flawed viewpoint as you could make the same argument to claim that not believing in the tooth fairy or santa clause is also illogical.

Thus, I would have to submit that believing in something that has no proof of existence is far more illogical than not believing in that same thing. To me the absence of evidence in the face of close scrutiny creates a stronger logical case for disbelief than for belief.

 

[poseyjmac]

As you can see I thought you were saying pure atheism was more illogical than religion. Sorry for misunderstanding.

But, even though I do agree with you in basic principle, it's actually a flawed viewpoint as you could make the same argument to claim that not believing in the tooth fairy or santa clause is also illogical.

ok, sorry for the crackpipe comment, unless you do smoke crack, in that case im not sorry and enjoy ehe. well its not flawed per se, its just 100% safe.

 

[Sprafa]

When the hell was this thread hijacked by religion?

I mean, if you read the ****ing thing clearly, you can see he's clearly anti-religious.

 

[Sprafa]

And Dedalus, thanks for the advice. I'll try and get a grip of that book.

 

[Yakuza]

Alright, that's fine.

But while we're on the subject of logic I have a question.

As a christian don't you believe that God exists and that there is no other possible alternative to reality? If so how do you justify that logically?

cause I believe there are logical absolutes.

 

[Yakuza]

I just think it's funny you religious folk give your Gods genders... yeah, like they have a use for a gender.

Well he is called father, even Christ called out and said "Abba" wich is translated as Daddy.

 

[Neutrino]

cause I believe there are logical absolutes.

Why did you cut off the important part of my quote? I was saying that by your own arguments you can't logically claim something is impossible. Therefore, logically, you can't claim that the non-existence of God is impossible.

I don't see how saying "there are logical absolute" justifies the stance of God existence being an absolute certaintity.

Basically the point I was trying to make was that you can't justify a religious stance using logic. Religion is not logical.

 

[Yakuza]

Divine intervention is not evidence

So now you have taken a biased stance at looking for evidence, so now even if there was evidence you couldn't see it because of your biased standpoint. I thought science was Objective.

 

[Yakuza]

Basically the point I was trying to make was that you can't justify a religious stance using logic. It's not really compatible.

Why not?

 

[Sprafa]

Note - this is the 1st thread of mine hijacked. but since you're making it a nice, clean debate, I won't ask for it to be closed

 

[Neutrino]

Why not?

Why do you keep cutting off the part of my quote in which I explain "why not?" If your not going to read anything I write than there's not much point to this.

 

[Neutrino]

Why not?

Why do you keep cutting off the part of my quote in which I explain "why not?" If your not going to read anything I write than there's not much point to this. Not that there is really a point to any religious argument in the first place of course.

 

[CptStern]

So now you have taken a biased stance at looking for evidence, so now even if there was evidence you couldn't see it because of your biased standpoint. I thought science was Objective.

it's not a biased opinion ...that's just it ..divine intervention isnt evidence ..there isnt proof it happened. There's nothing there that can be measured/compared/studied ..it's not like god left a fingerprint at the scene for us to study and verify ..it just says in a book written by man that these people lived long lives ...but hard measurable evidence points to the contrary

 

[Yakuza]

Why do you keep cutting off the part of my quote in which I explain "why not?" If your not going to read anything I write than there's not much point to this. Not that there is really a point to any religious argument in the first place of course.

Sorry I was just responding to your "Basic point."

All I am saying is that God is a possibility, I believe this possibility to be true.

 

[Neutrino]

Sorry I was just responding to your "Basic point."

All I am saying is that God is a possibility, I believe this possibility to be true.

I just meant that the existence of God is not a certainty, just like his non-existence is not a certainty either. But I don't deny that it's a possibility (though I think a remote one). So I guess we're basically agreed about that to an extent.

Perhaps to explain better though, my earlier point was that it was my understanding that christians accept God's existence as an absolute certainty. I was just saying that this is not a logical viewpoint, which is what I meant when I said religion is not logical.

 

[Yakuza]

it's not a biased opinion ...that's just it ..divine intervention isnt evidence ..there isnt proof it happened. There's nothing there that can be measured/compared/studied ..it's not like god left a fingerprint at the scene for us to study and verify ..

You excluded devine evidence as any kind of proof and yet you seek hard evidence to prove the existance of a devine being.

 

[Yakuza]

Perhaps to explain better though, my earlier point was that it was my understanding that christians accept God's existence as an absolute certainty. I was just saying that this is not a logical viewpoint, which is what I meant when I said religion is not logical.

Allthough we might agree that my faith in God could "possibly" be proven wrong, I still rest on the evidence and make logical conclusions.

 

[CptStern]

huh? I didnt say that

I exclude divine evidence because there isnt any. Nothing that can be measured, quantified, tested; therefore it's just circumstantial

 

[Neutrino]

I still rest on the evidence and make logical conclusions.

Me too.

 

[Yakuza]

huh? I didnt say that

I exclude divine evidence because there isnt any. Nothing that can be measured, quantified, tested; therefore it's just circumstantial

Do you know all evidence?

And what about Love, can it be measured, quantified, tested?
What about the beauty of a sunset?
What about the frustration in waiting for Half-Life ?2

 

[CptStern]

Do you know all evidence?

And what about Love, can it be measured, quantified, tested?
What about the beauty of a sunset?
What about the frustration in waiting for Half-Life ?2

we're not talking about the existance of god, we're discussing the evidence that someone lived 480 years





btw my fustration is quickly turning into murderous rage ...towards HL2 fanboys of course

urge to kill rising rising RISING!!!! jk

 

[trebhome]

WOW, realy this thread is quite amazing.
Not that any of you probably care but I recently (3 years ago) turned my life over to Jesus Christ and our heavenly father. For the past 3 years I have struggled with the day to day war of morality. Christianity definatly has not made my life any eaiser, but it definatly has made my life happier. I can count the blessings that have been delivered to me. I can see that in living this way there are rewards, greater than anything I have experianced before. In all of this though I still struggle, Everyday.
I wonder..."Am I doing this to glorify God, or am I doing this so that I don't go to hell?" Stuff like that absolutly kills me. I know what I want the answer to be, but that doesn't mean that's what the answer will be. I hope I'm not losing anyone here.
I'm too lazy to look up the post and quote it but somebody said that the bible was meant for a teaching tool and not to be taken literally. I could argue as to why I agree with this entirely but someone else would just argue with me. Any way I believe this to be completly true. I believe that some things are meant to be literal and some figurative, but After all the bible is meant as a teaching Tool.
Someone else posted that all God requires of us is to believe that he created Jesus for our salvation, and that he is the ultimate power in the universe. Basically that murderers and rapists will pay for their actions but will not be denied Heaven because they commited sins. As long as they believe is whats important. [I know that's not exactly the post, but the point is there] - - - Man You really made me think on that one. It definatly changed me a little. I think you're right in saying that.


Wow again. This is definatly one of the best threads I have come across. Very intelligent, in whole, with people clearly feeling passionatly about their views. Wow is all I can say. This thread is Amazing. Sorry if I bored any of you with my post, I just wanted to interject my opinion into this. Good stuff!